Noah's Ark - implications

Originally posted by Jenyar
What do you measure "ease" by?

Wouldn't it have been "easier" for the earth to be just flat? All the hard work of having to push around tectronic plates...

How the earth was formed is nothing to do with 'ease'. It was formed naturally, based on the laws of physics / chemistry etc.. I'm sure there are plenty of scientists & geologists who will tell you exactly why the Earth is like it is.

Of course, this is totally irrelevant to our discussion isn't it?

Anyhow, isn't the Earth flat in the bible? How else can Jesus be shown all of the world's kingdom from a mountain top?
 
Of course, this is totally irrelevant to our discussion isn't it?
Not quite irrelevant, since I do believe God created the Earth as it is. Nowhere is any *poof* evident, and I don't know why you think it should have been with the flood. We seem to differ on how God's will is done.

Anyhow, isn't the Earth flat in the bible? How else can Jesus be shown all of the world's kingdom from a mountain top?
It depends on how you choose to interpret Isaiah 40:22:
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

There are a few movies I could point you to. I'm not sure if you it was in The Devil's Advocate, but showing a portion of the kingdoms of earth it means "everything you see, and even everything you don't see, will be yours". If it were in anybody's power to see the whole earth with one look, your objection would have been valid.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

There are a few movies I could point you to. I'm not sure if you it was in The Devil's Advocate, but showing a portion of the kingdoms of earth it means "everything you see, and even everything you don't see, will be yours". If it were in anybody's power to see the whole earth with one look, your objection would have been valid.

Either that deosn't make sense, or I just don't get it.:confused:
 
Originally posted by one_raven
Either that deosn't make sense, or I just don't get it.:confused:
Par. 1 refers to your conclusion that the Bible says the earth is flat.

Par.2 refers to your example of Jesus being able to see all the kingdoms of earth from a mountain top.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Nowhere is any *poof* evident, and I don't know why you think it should have been with the flood.

So what you are saying, is that the Earth was covered in water for a year, and you don't expect their to be any trace of such an event in the Earth's surface / crust?

Especially as it was so recent.

Sadly, if you're a Christian, you have no choice but to believe in a global flood (it appears). This means you have to dismiss overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

For just a few points, see:

Problems with a global flood:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Again, this is quite technical stuff, but it is often explained very well. I can't believe any rational intelligent human being can read this article, and still have no doubt that a global flood happened.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Par.2 refers to your example of Jesus being able to see all the kingdoms of earth from a mountain top.

I caught that.
I am not that dim.

Could you please try re-wording part 2?
I don't understand what it is that you are trying to say and how it is derrived from part 1.
 
i'd just like to say here that, yes, if you believe the bible's interpretation of god then he is omnipotent (as was previously posted by agent smith) and under the definition of omnipotent, god can do anything as he is all powerful. in light of this, god is all the more retarded when you take into account what the bible tries to say- an all powerful god chooses to flood the entire earth and then has to perform many "miracles" to continue the life of all the races of this planet. now, does anyone here feel they can dispute that god is not a dumbass for going about his business in such an obtuse and irrational way? with a snap of his fingers he could have achieved what he set out to do in the first place, yet without all the hassle of doing it the way he did described by the bible. i swear, i don't know much about how god is described by other religions, but in christianity god is a complete and utter dumbass. he has no consistency of being and very rarely does he connect two brain cells together to do anything in the bible. as a non-christian, if i believed in god i would think that christianity does a complete dis-service to god as he would be a smart dude, not the logically challenged simpleton that would be outsmarted by an 8th grader.

people have posted links to sites pertaining evidence for and against the story of noah's ark. i'm not sure where noah falls in the bible's timeline of things, but indeed there would be evidence of this world flood all over the place. there would be so much geological proof that there literally would be no atheists. however, noah's story is just as silly as all the rest and until i'm shown a god that is logical, does not act like a dumbass but the true, ultimately smart being that he would have to be, i have yet another reason not to believe. either humanities idea of god is too narrow or there truly isn't a god. until our scope of idea about god improves dramatically i really can't take christianity seriously.
 
one_raven
No problem. It's sometimes hard to see where others don't understand something that you wrote... although I'm not sure how relevant all this is, really.

But anyway, let me rephrase: X stands on the highest mountain in the country, points to "all the cities of the earth" and says to Y: 'All this I will give you, if you will bow down and worship me.'

Even if the earth was imagined to be flat, a person would not be able to see all the known cities (even less kingdoms) at a glance. Maybe three or four cities were visible, or if they were on a border, two or three kingdoms with a few cities at most. But Jesus knew that Satan promised not only these, but in fact the "whole world". And that was what was written down and what we also understand. Another possibility is that it could have been a vision. But nowhere is the intention or possibility to suggest the earth was supposed to be flat (although I'm sure people who already thought the earth was flat would read it that way, and would read Is.40:22 as a flat circle).

croper
No, what I am saying is that the Bible says the whole earth was covered. Whether 5000 years ago is "recent" is also arguable. You can interpret the text as local or global depending in accordance tot the research you find believable. Personally, I have no trouble believing either - there has definitely been catastrophic floods all over the earth, and the evidence against a global flood (or even a series of floods) is dependent on whose side you're on - but ultimately it is not the point of the story. The "truth" or moral of it remains the same either way, and is echoed in many other flood stories. Whoever wrote this certainly understood a similar message.

On that note, however, I would like to point out that many scientists believe that there were times when there were only one supercontinent (Pangaea and Rodinia), while the rest of the earth was covered with either ice or water. On what evidence did they come to that conclusion? Please note, I'm not suggesting this has anything to do with the Biblical flood - but the evidence observed would be similar.

As for the website, did you read the rebuttals on Problems with a global flood?. To be honest, it's a pillow fight I'd rather try to avoid. That the Bible is not unique in reporting a cataclysmic flood is enough evidence that at least people's lives world-wide were influenced by whatever happened, whether globally, or in multiple local floods - and realization and attentiveness is what God wanted to achieve.
 
atheroy
now, does anyone here feel they can dispute that god is not a dumbass for going about his business in such an obtuse and irrational way? with a snap of his fingers he could have achieved what he set out to do in the first place, yet without all the hassle of doing it the way he did described by the bible. i swear, i don't know much about how god is described by other religions, but in christianity god is a complete and utter dumbass.
Be honest, atheroy - if miracles were the order of the day, that would qualify as an irrational way of treating a world with perfectly working natural laws. God did not create nature just in order to overrride it, except when He wanted to show that He created it in the first place, which is where miracles come in.

With a snap of the fingers you would have ceased to exist - or had no free will, no nature to live in and live by. The problem, atheroy, is that you don't believe God created you. You would like a classical god who throws thunderbolts, because at least that would be ridiculous enough to oppose by modern standards.

I think what you are mocking are the people described in the Bible - the early believers, who probably had no more supernatural experiences than you or I do today. Like Moses, we can only see God after He had passed...
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
As for the website, did you read the rebuttals on Problems with a global flood?.

I have, but am not overly impressed. I've seen plenty of evidence pointing to J Sarfati being a liar, plain and simple. But then even if I ignore that (it could after all, be no more than vicious slander), his attitude is repugnant. Further, some of the arguments he puts forward, even I can see through.

The guy is morally bankrupt.
 
I don't like the tone of most fights. It is hard enough to see the hidden agenda of any side. Even the scientific research cited might be biased on way or another.

But they are useful in challenging the "I have the final say", "I have the whole truth" and "I know best" fallacies. It is much easier to refute a claim than to prove it, and so it will continue.
I can't believe any rational intelligent human being can read this article, and still have no doubt that a global flood happened.
Just as I can't believe that any person can look at world-wide flood myths and not wonder where they came from that they are so similar (involving more than two or three similarities, see this very interesting comparison of flood myths) or why they seemed so important. Where are all the cyclone myths, the hail, famine, sandstorm and pandora's box myths?
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
I don't like the tone of most fights. It is hard enough to see the hidden agenda of any side. Even the scientific research cited might be biased on way or another.

But they are useful in challenging the "I have the final say", "I have the whole truth" and "I know best" fallacies. It is much easier to refute a claim than to prove it, and so it will continue.

Just as I can't believe that any person can look at world-wide flood myths and not wonder where they came from that they are so similar (involving more than two or three similarities see this very interesting comparison of flood myths) or why they seemed so important. Where are all the cyclone myths, the hail, famine, sandstorm and pandora's box myths?

Hey, I can quite believe that localised floods have occured through history. I mean, they still do. It is quite acceptable that these ancient peoples, with their limited views of the world would think of local floods as being global.

In the article I cited earlier, you'll see a statement by the author claiming that evidence provided by the earth does not contradict the idea of localised floods throughout history. There are plenty of fossils of animals/plants that were killed in catastrophic circumstance. So as far as my limited knowledge takes me, there is some correlation between these stories and the evidence in the Earth.

The problem I think, is that I can't see how the Noah's Ark story can be taken literally. If you want to tell me you are a Christian, but as the bible was penned by men contains many innacurracies, or purely made up stories, I'd happily accept that. After all, whether the flood happened or not, it doesn't change God's intentions, and doesn't change what you believe / how you live.

Global Flood is a myth - science proves this.

Local Floods are a certainty - science proves this. However, this doesn't match a literal interpretation of the bible, hence the problems.

The same goes for evolution, and no doubt countless other things.
 
Be honest, atheroy - if miracles were the order of the day, that would qualify as an irrational way of treating a world with perfectly working natural laws. God did not create nature just in order to overrride it, except when He wanted to show that He created it in the first place, which is where miracles come in.
so noah's ark is not a miracle seeing water would have literally had to appear out of no-where to submerge the contenants of this world. if that is not overriding the working natural laws of this world then what is?

With a snap of the fingers you would have ceased to exist - or had no free will, no nature to live in and live by. The problem, atheroy, is that you don't believe God created you. You would like a classical god who throws thunderbolts, because at least that would be ridiculous enough to oppose by modern standards.
do you even get what i'm trying to say? i wouldn't like a classical god as he would be just as retarded as the god described in the bible. i would like a god that was smart, showed logic, had consistency of being, showed that he had ultimate knowledge by employing it and worte a book that wasn't full of trumped up stories but actual logical ideas. i don't believe god created me because i know my parents did. as well, why is this a problem?

I think what you are mocking are the people described in the Bible - the early believers, who probably had no more supernatural experiences than you or I do today. Like Moses, we can only see God after He had passed...
no, i am not. nor am i mocking anything. if we are to believe what god did in the bible how can he not be shown as stupid? i truly think that as the being he is described as, why in the hell would he do anything he does in the bible???? i swear i don't understand how people can believe in a written book that is obviously leaden with narrow views of how an ulitmate being might or did act. i would try give him some credit for what he did instead of assiging stupid stories to his name in an effort to describe who we are.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Just as I can't believe that any person can look at world-wide flood myths and not wonder where they came from that they are so similar (involving more than two or three similarities, see this very interesting comparison of flood myths) or why they seemed so important. Where are all the cyclone myths, the hail, famine, sandstorm and pandora's box myths?
Flood myths are very prevalent because people often settle near rivers, lakes, or oceans which often wind up flooding the settlement. The same thing happens today.

Additionally, there are many myths involving tornadoes/cyclones, hail, famine, and sandstorms. You’ve just been overexposed to the flood myths because Biblical literalists like to cite them as ‘evidence’ of a global flood.

~Raithere
 
Flood myths are very prevalent because people often settle near rivers, lakes, or oceans which often wind up flooding the settlement. The same thing happens today.
Additionally, there are many myths involving tornadoes/cyclones, hail, famine, and sandstorms. You’ve just been overexposed to the flood myths because Biblical literalists like to cite them as ‘evidence’ of a global flood.
OK. But attributing them to gods are just as prevalent. So you accept the origination of a myth from unexplained and catastrophic events up until the point that the supernatural becomes involved. I know why you do, but my point is that the evidence shows how even a myth is a valid means of driving home the message. "Came to believe..." is the operative phrase here.

As for the flood myth being prevalent among Christians - even though I agree to the inherent proprietary bias - please name one other prevalent myth universally understood, quickly off the top of your head.

Whatever the flood myth's origins were, it caught on. Even if the flood itself did not cover the earth, it's legacy sure did.
 
Last edited:
Is anything for God hard?Is it harder for God to open a can or to flood the world? Since God is all powerfull cant God do anything effortlessly? God made us perfect, we were suppposed to live in Eden not in the cold oustide world to fend for ourselves. But people chose not to follow God, they chose to follow the ways of Satan.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
But attributing them to gods are just as prevalent. So you accept the origination of a myth from unexplained and catastrophic events up until the point that the supernatural becomes involved. I know why you do, but my point is that the evidence shows how even a myth is a valid means of driving home the message. "Came to believe..." is the operative phrase here.
As long as they're recognized as such I have no problems with myths, they can be quite useful. The problem I have is when myth is taken for historical fact, or when presumptions are made upon them that run contrary to the evidence. There is no physical evidence that supports a global flood; in fact such a hypothesis contradicts what we know.

As for the flood myth being prevalent among Christians - even though I agree to the inherent proprietary bias - please name one other prevalent myth universally understood, quickly off the top of your head.
Solar myths typically depict the Sun as some sort of supernatural creature and all depict the Sun as moving across the sky rather than the Earth turning.

Whatever the flood myth's origins were, it caught on. Even if the flood itself did not cover the earth, it's legacy sure did.
Actually the flood story predates Judaism. It's one of the archetypal stories that are reflected in various ways in many cultures.

~Raithere
 
posted by Raithere
As long as they're recognized as such I have no problems with myths, they can be quite useful. The problem I have is when myth is taken for historical fact, or when presumptions are made upon them that run contrary to the evidence. There is no physical evidence that supports a global flood; in fact such a hypothesis contradicts what we know.
The issue is more their validity than their probability. Whether a myth is based on fact or fiction is almost insignificant if the truth that is conveyed remains intact. Take fairy tales for instance, even though some of their morals are contested these days - the packaging has always been secondary to the message. If you base the validity purely in historical groundedness, you lose most of the intention anyway. God speaks to the person, not to the circumstances.

Having said that, in the Bible the difference between actual history and interpreted history is less than clear. Christians believe the authors reported actual events. You may believe differently, but it will be on no greater authority.

The evidence does not support your presupposed hypothesis of a global flood. Since most of the world was under water at some time in history - either ice caps or oceans - I don't see how you can make any absolute claim. Of course you are welcome to hold on to a simplified hypothesis of a "global flood", but when evidence contradicts your interpretation, they do not automatically discount all the other possibilities. And by no means does it default anything to pure fiction.

Solar myths typically depict the Sun as some sort of supernatural creature and all depict the Sun as moving across the sky rather than the Earth turning.
The mechanics of cosmology are different than the mystification of natural events. After all, the flood account makes no attempt to explain comprehensively how it happened - water came from above and below, and that's it - the account has a theme, it's about a warning, a catastrophy, a rescue and a new beginning. The mechanics are less important than the implications. Which widespread sun myth shares these characteristics?

Actually the flood story predates Judaism. It's one of the archetypal stories that are reflected in various ways in many cultures.
In which cultures? The history of Israel is closely connected with the the Sumerians. There isn't even a word for 'religion' in classical Hebrew. What you call "Judaism" was simply history to the Israelites - and their Scriptures describe their history with YHWH.
 
Back
Top