Pedophelia

[Closet Philosopher]

You people are walking through the dark. Here is what I have to say about this subject:

A) Teachers have sex with their students all the time in high school. If you're "in" then you know who is sleeping with who. I won't go into detail bu I was "in" at onw time.
B) This fact is hidden from the general non-perceptive population because of the social setbacks in wester society.
C) If a 17 year old person has sex with a 22 year old person, it's generally acceptable. If that older person was a teacher, it would be different.
D) Why?, you may ask. There is a bit of a "sleeping with the boss" feeling when you're "in". It becomes doubly awkward when there are teens and young adults involved.
E) Have you ever heard of a "sugar daddy"? IT can happen in schools.
F) I think that everyone reaches a peak in maturity at different times. It can be normal for someone that is 25 and someone that is 16 to have a similar maturity level.
G) What's wring with consensual sex? It sounds like the American christian extremists are taking over in here
H) A school is a place that probably has the most complicated set of social and political dynamics in the western world. Everything and Anything happens. Much of it happens behind the scenes and only a very perceptive person can see though the fake acceptable barrier that is constructed by staff at schools.

 

[Neildo]

There is less chance of them being taken advatage of by someone else just starting out. Thats compleatly normal, but someone who is older knows how to pressure them into something they might not WANT to do or might convince them they want but they really dont.

As if this is only limited to teens and sex. Anyone, regardless of age, can be presured into doing things they might be hesitant on or might not want to do. It's normal, nothing new or exclusive to only sex.

so you think an 8 year old (assuming they have gone through pubity) has the mental capacity to FREELY enter a sexual relationship? They would understand about STD's and pregnacy? They would be mentally capable of chosing forms of contraceptive?

So are you saying that before the 80's or so, it was fine for older people to sleep with a less informed teen? Younger people sure didn't have as much knowledge as we know now about STDs, contraceptives and all that before then. Most of this stuff is kinda new. This information is a bonus, not a requirement.

Women are not baboons. Our arses do not become red nor do we emit a particular scent to let males know that we're ready to mate.

Heh, no red butts, but women do emit scents.

How about we just ignore the rules laid down by society. Lets look at you as an individual. Lets say you have a 12 year old daughter who's just gotten her period and she's growing boobs. Would you as her parent allow her to date a 30 year old male who finds her sexually appealing because she's now ripe? Think of it in that sense. Some parents and cultures do allow it, and others do not. It depends on the individual.

Exactly, it depends on the individual. How simple. But hey, we still have tons of people that love to stick their noses in places they don't belong, trying to tell others how to live. Nothing new. I still wish for those types of people to die.

G) What's wring with consensual sex? It sounds like the American christian extremists are taking over in here

Yup. Gotta love FREEDOM, eh? Freedom to only do things that others allow. That ain't freedom. If people want to do things to themselves willingly, that won't affect any other people against their will, they should be free to do so.

- N

 

[Crimson_Scribe]

Good on you, Closet Philosopher

And back to the original post . . .
I’m not too big a fan of vigilante style justice – besides, ‘underage teen female’ is pretty ambiguous. A lot of ‘underage teen females’ have sex lives. I’ve got a friend who’s into older guys (ten year plus), and when she was underage that was her thing. I doubt she’d ever put out an ad, though . . .

Putting out an ad is an invitation for sex – can the news prove that any of these guys would have pursued a sexual relationship with a younger girl if they weren’t invited to? Would you go out and rob a bank? Maybe not. But say I’m a jewelry store manager, and you work for me. I’m leaving for vacation and I say to you: “While I’m gone, count those rubies I’ve got in this bag. I’ve always wondered how many there are.”

The difference is active pursuit vs. opportunity.

 

[superluminal]

I wonder how many otherwise innocent men are in prison right now for stat rape because of an arbitrary age of consent limit that varies from state to state and nation to nation. Not even talking 8 or 12 year olds. 16? 17?...

 

[spidergoat]

When she worked for the ACLU, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg co-authored a report suggesting America lower the age of consent to 12.

That's nonsense, she never suggested that.

 

[Repo Man]

About Ginsburg:

The rest of Jen's column is a rather incoherent mixture of Biblical verses and gibberish. but I was curious about Ruth Bader Ginsburg's plan to lower the age of consent to 12. So, I followed Jen's link, which took me to an article by WorldNetDaily's Joseph Farrah which condemned Ginsburg for giving a speech to The American Constitution Society ("a highly partisan, political extremist organization with an agenda not to support the U.S. Constitution, but to undermine its most basic precepts"). Nothing there about 12-year-olds and sex.

So, where did Jen get this idea? Well, a little googling revealed that it's been floating around wingnut circles for about a year or so now. I finally found the following citation, which is also floating around out there without any attribution, but which everybody accepts as evidence of Ginsburg's plan to corrupt kids):

Knight and York's footnoted documentation on this is as follows: "Sex Bias in the U.S. Code," Report for the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, April 1977, p. 102, quoted in "Ruth Bader Ginsburg's Feminist World View," The Phyllis Schlafly Report, Vol. 26, No. 12, Section 1, p. 3.

The paragraph (from the Ginsburg report) reads as follows: "'Eliminate the phrase "carnal knowledge of any female, not his wife, who has not attained the age of 16 years" and substitute a federal, sex-neutral definition of the offense. ... A person is guilty of an offense if he engages in a sexual act with another person. ... [and] the other person is, in fact, less than 12 years old.'"

But I couldn't find a copy of "Sex Bias in the U.S. Code" to verify this for myself, nor could I find a copy of The Phyllis Schlafly Report, Vol. 26, No. 12. I did find Phyllis claiming that Ginsburg wrote "Sex Bias in the U.S. Code," and that this publication advocated lots of horrible stuff, like letting women into serve in combat zones, and no longer requiring a husband to "support his wife and provide her with a home." I even found a piece where Phyllis claimed that Ginsburg opposed the Mann Act, "because it 'was meant to protect weak women from bad men,' which she believed was demeaning to women" But I couldn't find anything where Phyllis claimed that Ginsburg advocated letting adults have sex with 12-year-olds.

I finally found the "Knight and York" mentioned above -- they are Frank V. York and Robert H. Knight, and they wrote a reasoned and scientific piece about gay pedophiles and their designs for your son called "Homosexual Activists Work To Normalize Sex With Boys" (it's included in this handy pamphlet Homosexual Behavior & Pedophilia). The above ellipsed citation is in their footnotes. But it doesn't indicate which law it is that Ginsburg meant to ammend with her suggestion.

So, I searched for the phrase "carnal knowledge of any female, not his wife, who has not attained the age of 16 years." I found a law -- it's part of the statutes regulating Indian affairs (Section 1153), and it indicates that an Indian who commits various crimes, to include carnal knowledge of a female under 16, within "Indian country" shall be subject to the same laws and penalties as anybody else committing the offenses within the jurisdiction of the United States. It's the ONLY federal law I could find that uses this phrase.

Would Ginsburg and Feigen-Fasteau really have claimed that, in order to eliminate sex bias in federal law, Indians should be allowed to have sex with 12-year-olds in Indian Country?

Maybe, but I find it hard to believe. I suspect that this is another case of a couple of anti-gay wingnuts making creative use of a Phyllis Schlafly screed in order to claim that pedophiles were on the verge of winning a legal battle to seduce your kids into homosexuality. And that the rest of the wingnuts found this citation a year or two ago and ran with it.

So, what is the lesson of all of this? That Jen Shroder is pretty gullible, and that Selwyn Duke is awfully annoying ... for a girl.

http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/2004/06/05.html

See what happens when you believe WorldNutDaily?

 

[Bells]

Heh, no red butts, but women do emit scents.

So you're telling me that you can smell when a woman is fertile in her cycle? You can smell when a girl has entered puberty? Yes we emit scents, but nothing that can be picked up by modern man's noses. Men do not know when a girl or a woman is at her most fertile. Hell half the time the women themselves don't even know, unless she's taking her temperature on a daily basis or having constant blood tests to show when the hormones peak, it's hard for her to know the precise moment when she's at her most fertile.

Exactly, it depends on the individual. How simple. But hey, we still have tons of people that love to stick their noses in places they don't belong, trying to tell others how to live. Nothing new. I still wish for those types of people to die.

Those tons of people are calles society and we all elect individuals to supposedly lead us and create laws to govern us as a whole. I for one don't feel that the age of consent laws or the statutory rape laws or the laws regarding paedophilia are wrong. I personally think they should be toughened.

Age of consent laws should apply nationally, if not globally. 12 years old is too young as many girls don't even start puberty at that point, and even if she has, sex with an adult male could not only damage her mentally, but also physically. How would anyone here feel if their 12 year old girls were allowed to marry a 35 year old man?

We can say as much as we want about how society should not meddle in certain things. But apply the situation to yourself and see how you'd react. Just as we aren't allowed to walk into a store and take everything off the shelves and walk out without paying, we also can't have sex with children under the age of consent, in many places that is 18 years of age. Learn to live with it. If you feel the need to bonk a 14 year old girl, and you're past the age of consent, then it's not biological.

Lets say a 16 year old flirts with a 25 year old. So what right? But then that 25 year old has sex with her and is arrested. Now lets look at the 16 year old who's flirted with him. Did she intend or want to have sex? Lets say yes. As for the 25 year old, hell, she was asking for it right? But.. and this is a big BUT.. he should have known better. He was the one in control. Just as when at the last minute the girl says no and the guy has to back off no matter what, he is the one who should have control and recognise that at 16, she's off limits. If he is her teacher, then it's even more imperative that he says no. Because he is the one in control. He is the one who is more influential. He is the one with more power. Ah power.. such a strong word in this situation. As the adult, he is the one in the more powerful position. I've heard many adult men say that the young girl he bonked had so much power over him that he just could not say no. Bullshit. I've head adult men say it about 5 year olds and I've head them say it about 15 year olds. The answer is still the same. Bullshit. Any adult male or female for that matter who has a teenager intent on having sex with him/her has the power to say no. The fact that most do says a lot about the one's who don't. Not all adult teachers have sex with their flirting students. The majority say no. The weak ones can't help themselves and have no self control to say no and say yes.

I remember I had a science teacher when I was in high school. Good looking guy, all the girls had crushes on him. I went to a school where a school uniform was compulsory. But while sitting on stools at the high science benches in that class, our dresses would ride up a bit. This guy used to walk up and down the aisles dropping things and bending down so he could look up our dresses, and then he'd rush behind his own front desk for a little while. At first, most of us thought it was our imagination, but after a while it became obvious, so we complained. The school told us we were wrong as they'd sent another teacher in to observe and she'd seen nothing out of sorts... as if the perve would do it in front of another adult sent there to observe him. He was a very touchy feely and for 14 year old girls, it felt uncomfortable. Sure he was good looking, but he was also a creep. In the third term, he'd asked one of the girls in my class to got to his office during recess as he had to discuss her grades with her. Apparently screaming was heard from his office and when the staff and students passing by heard, the door was flung open and she was in tears standing in front of the door and he was standing behind her. Apparently he'd tried to grope her breasts. It was kept very quiet and he was fired on the spot and the police were called. It became his word against hers and in the end no charges were laid. Last I'd heard, he'd been one of the teachers arrested a few years ago for molesting his female students and his excuse had been that it was consentual because they'd flirted with him. Do any of you see where I'm going with this? When we first came to his class, we didn't know he was a pervert. He was a good looking guy and probably in his late 20's and all the female students in his classes flirted with him at first. After a couple of weeks, we realised he was not quite there and we tried to avoid him as much as possible. Did that give him the right? No amount of flirting gave him the right to try anything. Even if one of the girls wore no underwear and opened her legs under the table did not give him the right to look. This is what most do not understand. A girl can spread herself naked on her school desk and right 'take me' across her breasts and the teacher should not touch her. That's all it comes down to.

 

[superluminal]

You're right Bells. Let's arbitrarily set the age of consent at, oh, say, 23. No, 25. In my experience, most girls, even in their 20's have no clue about what they want, and are more confused than many savvy teenagers (my own three teen daughters take crap from NO ONE!). Just what criteria would you use to set a rational age of consent?

When is a girl smart enough (notice I didn't say emotionally stable enough. I don't think too many women are ever that emotionally stable ) to know when she want's to get laid? To know that babies may result? To know about STD's? Mine knew it well before I knew they knew it.

Also, if you think that the vast majority of men would calmly say no if a well developed 16 year old girl throws her legs open, begging him, just because of a little law issue, then little do you understand male biology. It seems all too easy for some women (such as yourself) to shift all responsibility for sexual control to the male.

Historically, females have used sex, at all ages, as a really nifty lever, to get what they want. Us poor saps usually fall for it too.

P.S. If a 35 year old man wanted my 16 year old daughter, I'd have his head on a stick, and his balls in a jar. The law wouldn't be an issue. But that's just me.

 

[Repo Man]

I would have to wonder about the mentality of someone in their thirties pursuing anything with a teenager, whether said teen was legal or not. As beautiful as so many teenage girls are, all I have to do is think about how little I have in common (and their probable taste in music) and I realize that the reality wouldn't match the fantasy. A beautiful teenager throwing herself at me? Fortunately, I don't think I'll ever have to face that dilemma.

But this all assumes the male as the predator, and a female as the prey. What of a sexually aggressive young woman? What of a gay teen who pursues an older man?

Though I think I understand where you are coming from Super, if you had a choice of an older mature good guy being your daughters sex partner (considerate, kind, sure to use birth control); or some teenage boy who was inconsiderate, stupid, likely to forget to use birth control, which would it be? If your daughter chooses to be sexually active, she will be. And who she has sex with will be her choice. Though I've stacked the deck, the point is that in this context young isn't necessarily better, and older isn't necessarily worse.

Sucessful relationships are strongly based on how much people have in common. Large differences in chronological age can make for an unbridgeable gap. But that is really for individuals to decide for themselves.

 

[superluminal]

Repo Man,

I'd have to read your post a few more times, but I think I agree with you 100%.

(I, unfortunately, have had to face that dilemma. It was a Goddamn mess.(understatement))

 

[Repo Man]

This sort of thing comes up in Dan Savages column often.

Before we married, my hubby denied having any sexual fantasies. I have lots, and enjoy some kinks. We talked, though, and he said that he would try. Now I find out that he DOES have fantasies and that he lied to me. He didn't open up to me about this, I found porn that he downloaded. His thoughts are about teenage girls, like the rest of the fucking culture. However, he lied, and I am now feeling like I am not someone he trusts!

Fact is, MMM, there's more than cultural forces at work here. Yes, the adolescent body, male and female, is the reigning beauty ideal, and the culture celebrates and sexualizes the young. But there's nothing arbitrary about this. The reptile part of the male brain is wired to find fertility insanely attractive, and when women are teenagers, they're fertile as fuck and their offspring are likelier to survive. And it's not just men that are subject to the forces of evolution; the reptile part of the female brain is wired to find tall, strong, powerful, and successful men attractive. Why? Because these are the guys who can chase down, kill, and drag mastodons back to the cave.
The reptile part of the male brain is wired to find fertility insanely attractive, and when women are teenagers, they’re fertile as fuck and their offspring are likelier to survive

Thankfully, most modern adult straight males want to be with adult females, and most find mature women attractive. (Many men maintain that women are less likely to betray the reptile part of their brains and date men who aren't successful and attractive.) Adult men that can form adult relationships with adult women but also find teenage girls attractive—and that describes most straight guys, MMM—are wise enough to 1) refrain from dating teenage girls (they're often insufferable, and while they have firmer bodies, they usually don't know what to do with them), and 2) keep it to themselves for fear of annoying the women in their lives, which is what your husband was doing.

So now that you get it, MMM, what do you do about it? Get the fuck over it. It's perfectly normal for straight guys to find post-pubescent teenage girls attractive. Since he wasn't hiding his heterosexuality from you, I don't think your husband can be accused of hiding this "fantasy" from you.

http://www.theonionavclub.com/savagelove/index.php?issue=4105

 

[Repo Man]

Another one that is even more on topic:

I wanted to let you know that your advice to DOM, the 29-year-old anxious to get it on with his legal-where-he-lives 16-year-old coworker, was spot on. When I was 14, I had a very satisfying sexual relationship with a 24-year-old man. We met through some friends who were college age. I pursued him for months. He was resistant because of our age difference and the legal risk to him, but ultimately I was hard to resist.

Still, at his insistence, we progressed slowly. I was a virgin, and he was actually more precious about it than I was. He bought me a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves. We read The Joy of Sex together. We talked and talked about the risks, about condoms, about my feelings, about the possibility of regret. We also talked about our age difference, the need for discretion and the impossibility of anything more than a short-term relationship evolving between us. We talked for months before we finally did it.

It was seriously great sex. Our relationship lasted for nearly a year before I broke it off. (I was ready to explore other guys and girls.) The only downside is that, because of the taboo around our age difference, I haven't been able to share my experience with many people without rousing severe judgment. So your advice to DOM was refreshing. I hope he follows it.
-- Got No Regrets

Speaking of rousing severe judgment, GNR, a lot of readers wondered why I didn't order DOM to register as a sex offender now, thereby saving himself the time and trouble of being arrested and sent off to prison. (Can no one read? The girls DOM were lusting after were of legal age, people.) It seems to me that a lot of grownups have screwy ideas about teenagers and their sexual desires and rights -- which is odd, considering that all grownups were teenagers once, most teenagers lust after people in their 20s and many grownups lost their virginities as teenagers to people who were older and weren't harmed.

But the official grownup position is that anyone who admits to being attracted to a particular teenager -- a young adult, above the age of consent -- has to be complete scum. What's worse, many grownups use "teenager" interchangeably with "jailbait" and "minor" despite the fact that in most places teenagers are as likely to be above the age of consent (roughly 16-19) as below it (13-15). Note: Age-of-consent statutes vary widely, so please check your local listings for more information. And, to top it all off, the younger person is always the lusted-after victim, never the initiator.

Fact is, a lot of teenagers want to bag/succeed in bagging older, more experienced sex partners for their first times. When I was a 16-year-old, for instance, I had sex with a few people in their early 20s -- a couple of women, one guy -- and I was grateful for the experience and unharmed by the sex. (Well, the sex with women was kind of traumatic. No one warned me about queefs. I had to be peeled off the freakin' ceiling. "Holy shit!" I thought, "Why is that thing barking at me?!") As a grownup, I refuse to shove those early, beneficial sexual experiences down the ol' memory hole.
http://www.citybeat.com/2004-06-30/savagelove.shtml

 

[Neildo]

We can say as much as we want about how society should not meddle in certain things. But apply the situation to yourself and see how you'd react.

And that's the problem. Apply the situation to YOURSELF so it means everyone should follow the rules that YOU want? This is just imposing one's beliefs on another person. That's is the whole origin of conflict. If a person doesn't want something done then cool, they don't have to do it. But if another person doesn't mind it, they should be allowed to do it.

Lets say a 16 year old flirts with a 25 year old. So what right? But then that 25 year old has sex with her and is arrested. Now lets look at the 16 year old who's flirted with him. Did she intend or want to have sex? Lets say yes. As for the 25 year old, hell, she was asking for it right? But.. and this is a big BUT.. he should have known better. He was the one in control. Just as when at the last minute the girl says no and the guy has to back off no matter what, he is the one who should have control and recognise that at 16, she's off limits.

What are you talking about? What you're saying is clearly a man forcing themself on someone else and that's rape. That's not how sex usually goes down. A girl flirts and then all of a sudden a guy just has sex with them? It takes two to tango. If the girl doesn't want to have sex even though they're flirting, they won't have sex. Are you saying that every single time a girl flirts with another person, a guy just all of a sudden hops all over it? Nice exaggeration. You don't seem to know much about flirting or how sex tends to happen by the way you word all that.

It's nice to see you're also making the man out to be the problem maker. What about the girl that not only flirts, but initiations the sexual act and not the man that is forcing themselves on the girl that "wanted it"? Heck, what about the adult WOMEN that have sex with younger males? You clearly have no idea how things work and are saying all of what you're saying through a bias of a bad act in which you've experienced as a victimized female or friend of one. So because one person was bad, EVERYONE is bad. Mmhmm.

Age of consent laws should apply nationally, if not globally. 12 years old is too young as many girls don't even start puberty at that point, and even if she has, sex with an adult male could not only damage her mentally, but also physically. How would anyone here feel if their 12 year old girls were allowed to marry a 35 year old man?

Well I'm not the one who's been mentioning 12 year olds. It's bad enough that people find having sex with a 17 year old bad, so of course 12 is going to be way extreme. I have no problem with 15+ year olds being legal though.

So you're telling me that you can smell when a woman is fertile in her cycle? You can smell when a girl has entered puberty? Yes we emit scents, but nothing that can be picked up by modern man's noses. Men do not know when a girl or a woman is at her most fertile. Hell half the time the women themselves don't even know, unless she's taking her temperature on a daily basis or having constant blood tests to show when the hormones peak, it's hard for her to know the precise moment when she's at her most fertile.

Not puberty but yes, when a girl is having her cycle. The only times it's hard is when the girl is coated in perfume or wearing odor-eating pads. Blood as well as juices have a distinct smell. You've never been able to smell sex in the air?

- N

 

[Bells]

Neildo

And that's the problem. Apply the situation to YOURSELF so it means everyone should follow the rules that YOU want? This is just imposing one's beliefs on another person. That's is the whole origin of conflict. If a person doesn't want something done then cool, they don't have to do it. But if another person doesn't mind it, they should be allowed to do it.

Interesting. But we live in an age where many children who are forced into sexual relationships with adults don't have a choice. If we get rid of the age of consent, an adult male or female having a sexual relationship with a minor whether the minor was a willing participant or not would not be punished in any way shape or form. By your argument, if a 15 year old wants to have sex with a 35 year old, then he/she should be free to do so. Ok then, lets do that. Lets allow that. If people wish to let their teenagers have sex with adults at whatever age and the teenagers are happy with it, then woo hoo for them. But it doesn't work out that way. If you see parents letting their teenage kids having sex with adults, you'd call them bad parents. If you have a teenage child and an adult male or female wished to bed them, and your child said but everyone else is doing it, would you let them have sex with the adult? After all, if your child doesn't mind, why should you?

What are you talking about? What you're saying is clearly a man forcing themself on someone else and that's rape. That's not how sex usually goes down. A girl flirts and then all of a sudden a guy just has sex with them? It takes two to tango. If the girl doesn't want to have sex even though they're flirting, they won't have sex. Are you saying that every single time a girl flirts with another person, a guy just all of a sudden hops all over it? Nice exaggeration. You don't seem to know much about flirting or how sex tends to happen by the way you word all that.

It's nice to see you're also making the man out to be the problem maker. What about the girl that not only flirts, but initiations the sexual act and not the man that is forcing themselves on the girl that "wanted it"? Heck, what about the adult WOMEN that have sex with younger males? You clearly have no idea how things work and are saying all of what you're saying through a bias of a bad act in which you've experienced as a victimized female or friend of one. So because one person was bad, EVERYONE is bad. Mmhmm.

On the contrary, I'm saying if it's consentual. In many cases, even though the young girl or boy for that matter may just be flirting, things do get out of control. I wasn't making the man out to be the trouble maker, the situation applies to both sexes. I was using an example Neildo, why are YOU getting so defensive about it? Hmm?

I have a very good idea of how things work. I provide legal counselling to young teens who've been sexually abused in my spare time. And you've no idea how many times the kids blame themselves because they flirted with the adult and the adult took it as an invitation. It's more common than you think. Maybe it's you who does not realise how things actually are. You may say that if the girl, or boy for that matter, are just flirting and don't want sex then sex doesn't happen, but that's in a nice safe world where we can sleep with our doors open and our kids can play outside after dark with no fear of anything bad happening to them. Grow up Neildo and smell the rotten roses out there.

Even if the girl or boy initiates the sexual act, it's up to the ADULT to say no. There's no excuse. Sexual predators often use the excuse that the child flirted with them and were asking for it. There is the distinction of control.

As for not knowing how sex tends to happen, well the foetus growing inside me at the present time would kind of puts that to bed... no pun intended.

Well I'm not the one who's been mentioning 12 year olds. It's bad enough that people find having sex with a 17 year old bad, so of course 12 is going to be way extreme. I have no problem with 15+ year olds being legal though.

Ok, lets agree with you that you have no problem with a 15 year old being legal. Fine. Now as a legal 15 year old, he/she can then have sex with any person of same age or older than they. If a 45 year old finds him/her attractive and wants him/her, then that's quite allowed. You as the parent can't try and stop them because the 15 year old is now legal and can have sex with whomever they choose. Do you even understand the concept of consent? As a 20+ something male, you may find 15 year olds hot and would have no problems in having sex with them. Hell it'd be something to boast about wouldn't it? The 15 year old would probably think you're so cool because you're sooo much older and supposedly so much more experienced. But times your age by 2 or even 3 and that individual could also legally bed her as well. The way I see it, age of consent should follow the same rules that each country has for the age of right to vote. But that's just me.

Now lets consider the 20+ individual who goes out or sets out to have sex with a 15 year old. What the hell kind of loser would that individual be? Can't get a girl/boy their own age to have sex with them? I mean honestly, think about it. Aside from the power differentiation between the 20+ and the 15 year old, what the hell kind of dickhead sets out to have sex with a child? Sure we can say that 5 years is not a big difference, but life's experiences between a 20+ or 15 year old is vast. It would be a sexual relationship between an adult and a child.

Not puberty but yes, when a girl is having her cycle. The only times it's hard is when the girl is coated in perfume or wearing odor-eating pads. Blood as well as juices have a distinct smell. You've never been able to smell sex in the air?

Eh? What? You bend down and sniff the air at crotch level? It may have distinct smell but unless you're an animal with a very sensitive nose, you can't pick it up. You've watched too much Riddick.

superluminal

When is a girl smart enough (notice I didn't say emotionally stable enough. I don't think too many women are ever that emotionally stable ) to know when she want's to get laid? To know that babies may result? To know about STD's? Mine knew it well before I knew they knew it.

Interesting how a father with 3 daughters could value women or their emotions so little. So what are you saying? The girl should not be given the choice because she can never be emotionally stable enough? Personally, if they're still in high school, they should not be legal. Why? Because I'd rather my child get an education than be allowed at law to be bedded by a 30 year old. Call me old fashion. And I'm not saying that children should not be taught about sex, STD's, or the possibility of pregnancy. Hell, they should be taught before puberty.

Also, if you think that the vast majority of men would calmly say no if a well developed 16 year old girl throws her legs open, begging him, just because of a little law issue, then little do you understand male biology. It seems all too easy for some women (such as yourself) to shift all responsibility for sexual control to the male.

And yet many do say no. I have many friends, both male and female, who teach in high schools and they've often admitted that on a weekly basis, students proposition them for sex. Yet they say no. Why is that? Why is it that the vast majority do say no. Says a lot about them doesn't it? But most importantly, it also says a lot about the one's who don't say no or the one's who assume that adult males don't have or need self control if a 16 year old girl spreads her legs begging him. I'm not shifting the blame on the male. Adult females are also just to blame as the adult males who have no self control to say no to a child. After all, who's really the adult and who's really the child in the relationship? If an adult does not have any kind of self control that they can't say no to a promiscuous child, then they should not be in a position of authority (eg a teacher) where they come into contact with said children. Because no matter how developed the 15 year old may be, he/she is still a child and wishing to experiment. One would think that an adult would have some form of understanding that children do go through that phase and have some form of self control.

Historically, females have used sex, at all ages, as a really nifty lever, to get what they want. Us poor saps usually fall for it too.

Really? So a guy telling a girl that if she loves him she'd have sex with him is not using sex as a 'nifty lever'? Give me a break. Men are just as capable of using sex to achieve their goals as women are. Some men just like having an excuse for their own weakness.

P.S. If a 35 year old man wanted my 16 year old daughter, I'd have his head on a stick, and his balls in a jar. The law wouldn't be an issue. But that's just me.

Well at least we can agree on one thing.

 

[superluminal]

Call me old fashion.

Ok. You're old fashioned.

Could you please, explain why modern age of consent laws are the correct ones? Not your personal feelings. Explain logically why a 30 year old should go to prision for having sex with a willing 17 year old.

BTW, I value my daughter's, and wife's emotions as much as my own. And believe me, in a house with all women, I take a beating sometimes.

 

[superluminal]

Bells,

...an excuse for their own weakness"

Why are men attracted to young females?

 

[Asguard]

bell, girls use sex to get what they want a hell of a lot more than guys do (at least my gf does). In fact as your example shows guys in genral do the REVERSE, use other leavers to GET sex.

 

[Xev]

I wonder how many otherwise innocent men are in prison right now for stat rape because of an arbitrary age of consent limit that varies from state to state and nation to nation. Not even talking 8 or 12 year olds. 16? 17?...

How are they 'otherwise innocent'?
They broke the law, did they not?

I hope you can see the utility in a society imposing penalties on those who violate its laws. Laws are not, after all, suggestions. They are laws.

No matter how much you disagree with them, if you violate them, you ought to be punished. If you're an idiot who fucks a seventeen year old and risks prison rather than just masturbating, you deserve to be locked up. Actually they ought be sterilized, but that's an aspect of law that I don't agree with.

Could you please, explain why modern age of consent laws are the correct ones? Not your personal feelings. Explain logically why a 30 year old should go to prision for having sex with a willing 17 year old.

He shouldn't be imprisoned. He should be sterilized.
Not for having sex with a teen, but for being a stupid person who does not deserve to breed.

Bells:

Eh? What? You bend down and sniff the air at crotch level? It may have distinct smell but unless you're an animal with a very sensitive nose, you can't pick it up.

Surely men can. Women can as well, with men.
Intuited data is just as valid as obvious data.
It is just harder to use.

Aside from the power differentiation between the 20+ and the 15 year old, what the hell kind of dickhead sets out to have sex with a child?

I know thirty year olds with less qualitative life experience than I have.

And are you saying that we need to legislate power imbalences in people's sexual relationships?
Rather weird territory, don't you think?
Am I not allowed to have sex with a man less intelligent than I, because I can better control him than he me?
Or a man is not allowed to have sex with anyone physically weaker than him, which rules out most women?

I'm hoping that once we've made sure that everyone's sexual relations are nice and egalitarian, we have some money left to pay for new roads.

This sort of thing comes up in Dan Savages column often.

Pardon, but most of the people who write Mr. Savage have queries such as "how do I convince my girlfriend to dress me in a frilly dress and lick my anus whilst the 1812 overture plays?"

I wouldn't say that's an accurate representation of sexual clenliness.

 

[Neildo]

I would have to wonder about the mentality of someone in their thirties pursuing anything with a teenager, whether said teen was legal or not. As beautiful as so many teenage girls are, all I have to do is think about how little I have in common (and their probable taste in music) and I realize that the reality wouldn't match the fantasy. A beautiful teenager throwing herself at me? Fortunately, I don't think I'll ever have to face that dilemma.

Sucessful relationships are strongly based on how much people have in common. Large differences in chronological age can make for an unbridgeable gap. But that is really for individuals to decide for themselves.

Persuing what? A successful relationship, huh? Having something in common has to do with what? Sex is sex. This isn't the old days of marriage where you can't have sex until marriage which means hopefully you're compatible with one another. All those things have nothing to do with having sex with someone.

(Well, the sex with women was kind of traumatic. No one warned me about queefs. I had to be peeled off the freakin' ceiling. "Holy shit!" I thought, "Why is that thing barking at me?!")

ROFL, what a nut.

Interesting. But we live in an age where many children who are forced into sexual relationships with adults don't have a choice.

Children being “forced” into sexual relationships have nothing to do with this. That’s a whole other topic of someone forcing something on another. That’s bad regardless of the ages involved.

By your argument, if a 15 year old wants to have sex with a 35 year old, then he/she should be free to do so. Ok then, lets do that. Lets allow that. If people wish to let their teenagers have sex with adults at whatever age and the teenagers are happy with it, then woo hoo for them. But it doesn't work out that way.

Yep, they should be allowed to. And you wanna know the kicker? They (teens) already do that! This is nothing new.

If you see parents letting their teenage kids having sex with adults, you'd call them bad parents. If you have a teenage child and an adult male or female wished to bed them, and your child said but everyone else is doing it, would you let them have sex with the adult? After all, if your child doesn't mind, why should you?

Why would I call them bad parents? What “harm” is being done by having sex, whatever the age descrepancy between the two? Most parents are just worried about their “kids”, regardless of their age, having sex period. The bad parenting being done isn’t letting their kid act on their own, but not teaching them to act smartly because as you use in your example, the teen is saying “but everyone else is doing it”. For having that teen use that as an excuse to justify ANY act is the result of bad parenting.

On the contrary, I'm saying if it's consentual. In many cases, even though the young girl or boy for that matter may just be flirting, things do get out of control. I wasn't making the man out to be the trouble maker, the situation applies to both sexes. I was using an example Neildo, why are YOU getting so defensive about it? Hmm?

I wasn’t being defensive, it was just a hugely weighted example you showed to make the act look wrong. You were also using the usual ignorant train of thought where it’s always the adult pushing this on others making the younger person look oh so innocent. Most younger girls don’t like boys, they like older guys, so uh, exactly what do you expect to happen? A young girl knockin boots with an older guy, then everyone gets to paint that person as a “pedophile” where the girl was the “victim”.

I have a very good idea of how things work. I provide legal counselling to young teens who've been sexually abused in my spare time. And you've no idea how many times the kids blame themselves because they flirted with the adult and the adult took it as an invitation. It's more common than you think. Maybe it's you who does not realise how things actually are. You may say that if the girl, or boy for that matter, are just flirting and don't want sex then sex doesn't happen, but that's in a nice safe world where we can sleep with our doors open and our kids can play outside after dark with no fear of anything bad happening to them. Grow up Neildo and smell the rotten roses out there.

Again, you’re comparing your bad experiences and trying to make it out to be common place. I in no way deny the fact that people force themselves on others, but that is a different subject. It has nothing to do with older vs younger sex because regardless of the age of those involved, people will be peer pressured or even forced upon. It happens to young vs old sex, young vs young sex, and even old vs old sex. Does this mean that when sex is involved, it’s usually a forced act, regardless of the ages involved? Heck no!

Even if the girl or boy initiates the sexual act, it's up to the ADULT to say no. There's no excuse. Sexual predators often use the excuse that the child flirted with them and were asking for it. There is the distinction of control.

Why is it up to the adult to say no? Again, what is wrong with that person having sex with the person initiating the sex act? It’s not as if those two people just won’t go find another person to have sex with. The young person gets rejected, they go find someone else. The older person denies them but goes to find someone “their age”.

And since you continue to love using “flirting” as the excuse, that’s a problem with the person forcing themselves on another. This happens regardless of age and it’s the person’s mind who’s screwed up thinking they can screw any person that winks or smiles at them. But if that younger person DOES intiate the sexual act.. which I don’t consider “flirting” but rather flat out hopping on the person, grinding against them, tearing their clothes off, flash em, or whatever, to actually show that the person wants to have sex, then that IS a legitimate reason to have sex. Flirting and initiating a sexual act are two different things yet you continue to say it as flirting.

As for not knowing how sex tends to happen, well the foetus growing inside me at the present time would kind of puts that to bed... no pun intended.

Ok, lets agree with you that you have no problem with a 15 year old being legal. Fine. Now as a legal 15 year old, he/she can then have sex with any person of same age or older than they. If a 45 year old finds him/her attractive and wants him/her, then that's quite allowed. You as the parent can't try and stop them because the 15 year old is now legal and can have sex with whomever they choose. Do you even understand the concept of consent? As a 20+ something male, you may find 15 year olds hot and would have no problems in having sex with them. Hell it'd be something to boast about wouldn't it? The 15 year old would probably think you're so cool because you're sooo much older and supposedly so much more experienced. But times your age by 2 or even 3 and that individual could also legally bed her as well. The way I see it, age of consent should follow the same rules that each country has for the age of right to vote. But that's just me.

I wouldn’t have a problem with a 15 year old having sex with a 45 year old all because she may be “underaged”, I just wouldn’t want it, if looking at it with the simple view of just age, due to the “huge” desrepancy in age. This would apply to even a 40 year old having sex with an 80 year old. Yuck. However, if that 45 year old is a good person, I’d have no problem with it. My moms is in her 40’s and is dating and living with a guy in his late 60’s, looks old, and most people find it odd, but he treats her better than any of her past relationships, so I’m all for it.

People find a huge descrepancy in age to be weird even if the two are legal adults. It’s no different with a teen, even if legal. Why should I worry about a 15 year old having sex with someone 10+ years than them when adults do the same? If they’re “into” that thing, then hey, that’s their thing so the more power to them. Heck, I’ve had sex with a lady in her 50’s who was hot as hell, and yeah, older than my mom. I’m 26 by the way. I was, I think, 24 when it happened. Is that wrong?

Now lets consider the 20+ individual who goes out or sets out to have sex with a 15 year old. What the hell kind of loser would that individual be? Can't get a girl/boy their own age to have sex with them? I mean honestly, think about it. Aside from the power differentiation between the 20+ and the 15 year old, what the hell kind of dickhead sets out to have sex with a child? Sure we can say that 5 years is not a big difference, but life's experiences between a 20+ or 15 year old is vast. It would be a sexual relationship between an adult and a child.

See above. What’s with people always wanting others to be with people “their own age”? Age is nothing. But you can go ahead and continue to live in that simple box you wanna be in.

Eh? What? You bend down and sniff the air at crotch level? It may have distinct smell but unless you're an animal with a very sensitive nose, you can't pick it up. You've watched too much Riddick.

Uh, no, I don’t bend down and sniff the air at crotch level, heh. It has a distinct smell and can be easily picked out of the other scents that may be lingering. Like I said, have you ever been able to smell “sex” in the air? It’s no different with the metallic smell of blood.

As for Riddick, I’ve only seen the original Pitch Black, not any of the newer ones. But hey, thanks for reminding me cause it’s one I’ve been wanting to see.

And yet many do say no. I have many friends, both male and female, who teach in high schools and they've often admitted that on a weekly basis, students proposition them for sex. Yet they say no. Why is that? Why is it that the vast majority do say no. Says a lot about them doesn't it?

Their job, and that’s about it. That or they’re also the type that lives by society’s rules, as good or bad as they may be. I betcha if they weren’t a teacher and there were no risk of losing their job over it, they’d hop on it. Well, assuming they’re also not married or if they are, aren’t the rare monogomous person.

But most importantly, it also says a lot about the one's who don't say no or the one's who assume that adult males don't have or need self control if a 16 year old girl spreads her legs begging him. I'm not shifting the blame on the male. Adult females are also just to blame as the adult males who have no self control to say no to a child.

And here you continue to place the blame on the adult and not the sexual teen.

Could you please, explain why modern age of consent laws are the correct ones? Not your personal feelings. Explain logically why a 30 year old should go to prision for having sex with a willing 17 year old.

You won’t get an answer from her about a “willing” 17 year old because all adult - teen sexual acts are forced upon them. :eyeroll:

Historically, females have used sex, at all ages, as a really nifty lever, to get what they want. Us poor saps usually fall for it too.

Really? So a guy telling a girl that if she loves him she'd have sex with him is not using sex as a 'nifty lever'? Give me a break. Men are just as capable of using sex to achieve their goals as women are. Some men just like having an excuse for their own weakness

An old saying:

“Men use love to get sex, and women use sex to get love”.

- N

 

[superluminal]

Xev,

Sharp. Yes, very sharp. The gene pool needs a little thinning...