Question to believers

[elte]

Elte,

First, I'd like to point out that clarity of communication very often only comes from a back and forth to sort out what exactly is meant. No one should assume perfection, and that is precisely why presentation is not as practical as argument or debate. No one can present any idea completely free of misunderstanding, and this requires a presented idea to be challenged and tested as to its meaning and veracity. If the idea doesn't warrant being defended or clarified then it probably doesn't warrant being shared. Now if you only wish to express some belief, it would probably be wise to preface it as such.

Syne, I agree with that, that the back and forth can refine ideas. Unfortunately often times the process deteriorates into a simple contest of wills where the aggressive personality stifles the other perspective (no implication about you intended). In those cases, the goal becomes beating the other party rather than advancing knowledge.

Your claim that you wished to avoid argument while making one was, in fact, disingenuous. I'm sorry if you took it that I meant you were being intentionally disingenuous, but the claim, itself, was demonstrably so.

I appreciate that modifier of unintentional. Yet, I don't see how that fits with my truly disliking to argue. I do like to be agreed with, I just don't enjoy arguing or debating. One reason I appeared to be doing so poor a job was that I wasn't enjoying it and wasn't putting forth much effort. It wasn't holding my attention. But I can say one thing that might mean something. Several years ago I did like it at least some, and that was on another forum where there were more opposing views. However, I lost my enjoyment of the strife from the arguing and began to hang out here where hardly ever anyone would challenge my posts. I can still read and get new ideas to consider and throw out a few of my own now and again.

The use of any idea to society can only be ascertained by a test of that idea, which is accomplished by challenge and comparison. It is true that cooperation is necessary for a society, but this is not true of advancing knowledge or making use of ideas. Where you may see conflict, I simply see practicality.

I think we agree that is not always a bad thing. For example, we might consider the case of writer who is much less expert or interesting than he/she thinks.

On the other hand, the pushiest personalities tend to get more exposure than they often deserve. Other times self-interest prevents the discovers of knowledge from even wanting to share the information. Cooperation would reduce those drawbacks and allow the prior information learned to become available to other people who then work to advance the knowledge further. Often times people discovering new things can't obtain the cooperation they need to even share the knowledge.

If you think that your ideas warrant defending then you really are not justified in complaining about having them challenged. All ideas stand or fall on their own merit. If you cannot make the case for that merit, you are probably better not defending it.

I agree. It is problematic for me that I want to share my ideas even though I don't like dealing with challenges.

And it really should go without saying that rhetorical questions are not obvious in writing.

Let's just disagree on that.

Believe me, if only reasoned discussion was offered, I would have happily constrained myself to it. When emotional or subjective arguments are made, they require being pointed out so that a reasoned discussion can continue without the fallacy that such arguments have primacy over reason. They do not, and sometimes that fact requires being driven home.

Maybe you took my lack of focus as an emotional argument. I don't put much weight on them either.

When my argument is that the existence of freewill (choice, freedom, etc.) is what allows for misfortune, I fail to see how that can be considered idealized.

I agree with that. I think my lack of focus showed most there. I should have mentioned my problem with freewill lies elsewhere. That case is when it gets divine, almost magical implications attached to it, implications that override the costs, like the one you mention, that go with choices. That supernatural way of believing in freewill might involve the notion of heavenly reward, or the notion that the chooser will be divinely protected from physical injury, for example.

Thank you. It is extremely rare that this is noticed for what it is.

You're welcome.

 

[Believe]

1. Whether or not the body is the totality of our being, we still experience suffering, and no amount of afterlife can change that.
2. Again, poor compensation for a life of suffering.
3. God could answer some reasonable prayers as he is said to do, or he could just intervene in the most serious disasters before they happen. This would at least be consistent with the notion that we are his favorite creation. Or he's evil. Or he doesn't exist (which I prefer).

Do you not have a job or something? Or have you never worked to obtain anything of value? 60 years of suck is worth an infinity of awesomeness.

 

[pluto2]

What we do (what we think, feel, say and do) affects our experience of life.
To some people, this is kind of important.

Still this is not a sound argument. If God was really omni-capable then he could have made it so that what we think, feel, say and do is actually his creation but without us even having to think that we have no free will of our own because it would appear as if it is our own will.

 

[pluto2]

That which is temporary cannot effect nor affect that which is eternal.

But what is the purpose of this life if there an everlasting pain-free, suffering-free existence awaiting us?

 

[wynn]

Still this is not a sound argument. If God was really omni-capable then he could have made it so that what we think, feel, say and do is actually his creation but without us even having to think that we have no free will of our own because it would appear as if it is our own will.

The ability to do everything (that is logically possible)
does not automatically translate into having done everything.

But what is the purpose of this life if there an everlasting pain-free, suffering-free existence awaiting us?

Is there such an existence awaiting us, just like that? Or are there some more steps to be taken until there?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

The ability to do everything (that is logically possible)
does not automatically translate into having done everything.




Is there such an existence awaiting us, just like that? Or are there some more steps to be taken until there?

I am beginning to think it is more like a road to recovery thing .
Exiled from the natural state of an animal .
The whole idea of reaching for the heavens . The Christ saying I am not of this earth . The whole thing in the garden when Adam and Eve discovered they were naked.
The mind fuck
Convince the humans they are not part of nature. They are special creatures roaming the earth . Picked out of the crowd of all animals as being special.
You know what I mean Wynn.
Blam the start of Attention whoring . Not that that is a bad thing knowing I am an attention whore my self . I actually like it now that I have faced it .
I have come to realize everybody is . Also people like to be manipulated. It satisfies there attention needs.
Place=Wal-Mart
Time =Saturday
Me and the wife who said she would never jump Me . Ah yeah right.
So I told erotic stories in Wal-mart for all the people to hear . People can be very attentive . So My wife use to say I was not as hard of hearing as my hear was selective . She was right I do believe for as I whispered erotic stories of satisfaction and body manipulation the place came alive . What ever row we went down people were following . At first you might think the store was over crowed . No no more than usual. People started following us and as they would pass they would have big shit eating grins on there faces . The women would give extra attention . That look in your eyes that was just a little longer than normal . That glance that was out of the way of normal behavior. My wife started getting nervous about all . She grabbed Me by the arm and held on tight . Cunt block move is what it was . Yeah a little jumpy jumpy action . Then as we went to check out she did something she never does . She grabbed my butt in public . So out of character any friend of hers would think she was possessed. She did it not once but twice. Unbelievable . I am started to think when Leviathan showed her face when I was banned , then I saw all those woman looking at Me with goofy faces back at the beginning of Dec. She gave Me a gift our it was a realization of potential . Or made Me aware of the sexual pent up frustrations people live with . Frustration that has been building from when the attention deficit started when we realized we were naked and had the feelings to cover our bodies .

It is not like I think we should run around naked as I really don't have a motive in the matter . Except I was so hurt when she said she would never jump Me . Well the sex was great Saturday night and lets just say my own attention whoring that I have faced I need so bad got a little satisfaction . Cause well My wife has the Idea all on her own in her words . She says she came up with this idea all her own she she wants to explore different sexual escapades . She actually reached out and ? Can't tell you . If she found out I told she would really be mad . Now that starting to come out of her shell I would not want her to crawl back . I will let your own imagination fill in the blanks .
Life is good and I do believe I have rekindled a love affair . I am having a love affair . With my wife of all people . My Mid-life crisis is with my wife . Unbelievable

Capable of everything but does that mean all at once ? All in its due time .
Like a business plan .

Yeah Wynn I understand that well . Your so brilliant . I really like that about you . It amazes Me when people harass your point of view at times . Not that I agree with you all the time but you are very thought provoking and when you do nail it it is very good . Thought provoking is good . Verbal Intercourse ensues and that my dear is very satisfying

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

My conclusions thus far:
There is a collective consciousness unspoken yet communicated by some force we don't quite understand . The transference of the information is what is yet to be discovered . It is based in swarm behavior. It is our perception of what we call God .
The differential of what we think and what we portray . Yet the differential comes out in a type of code and transfers in a dream state . The hidden language that we perceive as a god entity . Except it is not really hidden . It is veiled in a type of secrecy .

Why I think that?
My erotic stories in the whisper.
If I told them out loud in public I would be locked up .
I would be perceived as one serious pervert not fit to be out in public
The taboo of the stories are that bad .
The differential of what we fantasies about and the actual physical acts have a major contrast. One is acceptable behavior and the other is not by social norms .
People yearn for the excitement of the stories and wish to participate . The social norm prevents them from excepting there deepest desire to explore possibilities .

So after my wife's and my sexual escapades this week end she said it all in a few words . She said I know her better than she knows her self . Wow fuck hole she never said that before . It was her sexual desires she was talking about . Stuff spoken out loud that word curdle her stomach and make her vomit, yet in the dream state of her true feelings gets her off like never before . She now wants to put sexual escapades on a schedule . Unbelievable .

My other conclusion :
People want other people to feel there pain
They gain satisfaction from people feeling there pain

God is in our minds
Our Minds are collective in a dream state.
Connected by daily intercourse of everything that surrounds us

 

[pluto2]

Is there such an existence awaiting us, just like that? Or are there some more steps to be taken until there?

I don't want to sound like a egalitarian Communist but how does God really intend to compensate those who suffered greatly in this life, or were living in extreme poverty all their life or those who died very young?

If you are a Christian then how do you think God really intends to make up for the misfortunes that befell them and make the world more fair?

http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/deathandheaven.htm

 

[wynn]

I'm not a Christian.

 

[MBA]

Can you prove God doesn't exist?

 

[kx000]

No. You can only prove his lack of presence in the world... just like he promised. It is the seventh day after all.