re-EVOL-ve

[786]

Your mistake is in thinking atheism is a religion. You are incorrect. One can be an atheist and a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or a non-believer. There are many moral systems which are logically sound, which work to maximize happiness for the most possible people, and which do not depend on a creator God for justification.

Ok..... Atheism + X = meaningless (where X is another religion/philosopy)

Atheism also doesn't say crap about many other subjects. We are free to decide for ourselves. In that freedom, one may certainly dismiss all meaning and be a nihilist, or not. It's a personal choice.

But in the scheme of things everything is meaningless.... nihilist don't see personal meaning either, you can have personal meaning in other religions but in the end they are all governed the by basic understanding that the universe has no purpose which is provided by Atheism.

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

Atheism also doesn't say crap about many other subjects.

if no god then what?

materialism and other crappy reductionist philosophies allowed for atheism
it is the bulwark

 

[786]

of course you cannot get into that. it absolutely shits on your proposition that nothing has meaning

No actually... the reason is that the discussion will become if God exists or not... that shouldn't have been hard to deduce from the context. Do you need help by me pointing out what I was saying or are you going to continue with your extrapolation?

Peace be unto you

 

[Gustav]

No actually... the reason is that the discussion will become if God exists or not... that shouldn't have been hard to deduce from the context. Do you need help by me pointing out what I was saying or are you going to continue with your extrapolation?

Peace be unto you

sure help

 

[786]

incomprehensible crap.

Then you should stop extrapolating :bugeye:

the equivalent of a theological ten commandments is secular humanism's bill of rights. my morality is codified as well as justified thru logic to have the best possible outcome for all humans. simply because some do fall thru the cracks does not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. we rather attempt to refine and fix whatever is found to be wanting

And why does your morality have any value?

see the thing here is we atheists unlike you theists do not pretend to be all knowing. we, our endeavors, are a work in progress. tedious i am sure but we have no choice but to go along with it as the current state of affairs are eminently preferable over adopting some pathological delusion

Your "endeavors are a work in progress" that lead to nowhere as everything that makes you is meaningless as is all your so-called 'progression'.

less muddle and more clarity if you desirous of getting your pov across

POV is already across..... the difficulty is in you accepting that all your morality and 'progression' is pointless- and that someone who doesn't agree with your logic or 'codified' morals can do whatever the hell they want and still be justified by Atheism.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

sure help

I think I already did before you asking...

Peace be unto you

 

[Grim_Reaper]

I am pretty sure I dont want to go to Nirvana look what it did to Kurt Kobane.

 

[786]

I am pretty sure I dont want to go to Nirvana look what it did to Kurt Kobane.

Lol :roflmao:

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Let me clarify, I think atheism is compatable with secular ideals of a good society which maximizes pleasure for the most number of citizens, while maintaining a sustainable way of life. Of course, no one really has to follow any such ideal.

Atheism is compatible with basically everything- Atheism is compatible with a philosophy based on Incest. Atheism is compatible with a philosophy of Satanism. Atheism is compatible with a philosophy that teaches every woman must be raped once- So whats your point? Secular ideas may try to do something- but Atheism has nothing to do with it.

I didn't mean to be absolutist. Of course no model of society could satisfy everyone, but we should seek models that could maximize the most satisfaction for the most people, taking into account the health of the planet.

Why 'should' someone seek models that you want?

Why is my own happiness dependent on time? The fact that the illusion of ego is temporal has no relation to it's personal value. Pleasure is self-evidently it's own reward. This was the philosophy of Epicurus. The material world is all that exists, so we might as well have fun. We also might as well ensure that all future people live in a time of happiness and prosperity for no other reason than it seems like a good idea. We may safely ignore those few people who would live outside of the rules and morals of society, they will do so no matter what.

Why should we 'might as well' when someone has something else in mind. Also you want to 'ignore' those few people based on your own morals that you create but you are not saying that there is anything wrong with someone raping- you'll just ignore that?

If religion does not prevent evil acts, and atheism doesn't prevent evil acts, then they are equal in terms of their value to society.

This statement is highly debatable- religion makes a stance against evil acts, and those who practice it would prevent evil act.

Atheism on other hand doesn't take any stance and thus doesn't prevent evil acts. Anyone who prevents an evil act is doing so as their own response- not because the idea is derived from Atheism, unlike religion.

Atheism also has the advantage of being consistent with known scientific facts.

This is the most common misunderstanding by Atheists. Let me break it to you- Atheism is not supported by science- secondly science is just as consistent with theism.

It is also a notion that does not eliminate moral values, since the moral values of atheists do not depend on ultimate meaning (which cannot at present be shown to exist).

I agree to this. But the moral values of an Atheist are not derived from Atheism as Atheism does not provide any moral standing.

Compassion for other people does not depend on eternal punishment. Such religious values arise out of fear and so may not be sincere. Atheists are good- for nothing.

This is the primitive understanding of religion.

"Atheists are 'good- for nothing'"- Give me a break. Or did you mean "Atheists are good for nothing" biodegradable junk

As I pointed out, atheism doesn't make things meaningless because meaning arises in relation to our lives, not some abstract mythology.

Atheism doesn't extinguish meaning that you personally derive- but it portrays that fundamentally everything is meaningless.

Peace be unto you

 

[shichimenshyo]

Ahh, but those religious based....philosophies well Atheism just isn't compatable with them now is it? But for some reason people not believing what you do really gets your goat, it really urks some little part of your brain, and so instead of using rational thought to come to a rational conclusion you demonize it. While I agree that comparing something to rape is a very persuasive line of argument I feel it is lacking somewhat in substance and actual validity. I thought that since you felt so strongly about this particular subject you would at least be able to approach it with some well thought out arguments.

But I'm an optimist I guess

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I know that.... and I've discussed enough of that in the thread 'God of Science'- if you have anything related to this topic say it over there. The point is that the universe is meaningless whether random or not.

Well, that's not true either. Meaning is the relationship between two or more variables. Every atom, every quark, and every string have a massive amount of meaning.

Perhaps I should have made clear that the universe is without purpose before saying that.

Allthough the second half of that is a true statement, I am not sure what it has to do with your original statement.

So in other words lets destroy everything so neither 'consiousness or sapience' exist-...

Sounds like a whole lot of work for no gain to me.

its not like you matter.

Correct. "To matter" doesn't exist outside the scope of your own mind. Fortunately, I am programmed to matter to myself (i.e. my own mind) and that is a survival trait.

And why does it matter that there is life in universe?

Objectively it doesn't.

Life is just as useless as non-life.

Being "useless" is a subjective judgment. It doesn't exist outside the scope of your own mind.

Okay.... so we'll just be floating around atoms in another reaction which is not called a human- nothing is destroyed-

Almost correct. Energy isn't destroyed but the effect of biological sapience would be.

Who said everyone wants to die, one person can do it to everyone- its not like you matter.

Well, you did ask if there is a reason why "we" shouldn't destroy life. Maybe the implication wasn't understood. People are programmed to matter to themselves. If you try to destroy them, they will stop you. It's less likely that someone with that kind of destructive intent would ever achieve a level of power to destroy the world.

Secondly why give a shit about evolution to begin with.

Because it's truth, and with truth comes power, and with power comes opportunity.

So they can destroy everything for 'whatever reason anyone wants' which is the same thing.

It's not the same thing. To destroy everything for 'whatever reason anyone wants' requires the ability to do so (which you do not have).

You'll just go back to the particles from which you came- you get into another reaction- and why does it even matter?

Only you can answer that question. It's subjective.

Its not like there is any meaning to the cycle.

Incorrect. That cycle is chalk-full of relationships.

What is Atheism? I think you don't know the meaning of some of the words you wrote.

Atheism is the non-acceptance of the statment "<insert god here> exists".

True, I used it to emphasize that we don't need to exist or that we matter.

That kind of emphasis comes off as dishonesty.

I'm talking about the implications of believing that universe is meaningless as Atheism would see it; has nothing to do with being a Muslim. What is astounding is that everything you believe is meaningless

I think the belief that atheists think the universe is meaningless is just as bad as any other nutty belief.

Peace be unto you

Beware of Mickey Mouse.

 

[Randwolf]

There is absolutely no meaning to life in Atheism

Actually, all that is meaningful to an Atheist IS this life.

It would seem more likely that there is no meaning to this life in Theism. After all, according to that philosophy, the only point in living is to die - so we can go on to heaven, hell, etc..

Anyone ever consider that?

 

[iceaura]

The three statements there do not follow from each other - their meaning and accuracy is independent of each other's.
”
They are independent only to the point you are alive

Or anyone else is alive. OK. That's a fairly significant point, to me.

giving yourself your own meaning- considering that you are basically the same thing, a part of the universe which has no purpose- Your existence is just as meaningless as the universe as a whole.

That makes no sense. How does meaning for me require meaning for the entire universe? And to what would such a meaning apply- what is the outer context of everything?

I do not think I am quite so important as all that. I think I can have meaning within a few billions of years, and a galaxy width or two - that seems to be enough room, for one human life.

And this meaning would be generated from the simpler, if course - arising from below, not handed down from above, as it were. We do not need to create a meaning for language in general throughout all of human life forever before the first words acquire theirs, eh?

 

[(Q)]

Some atheists specifically try to separate Atheism from Religion....

Perhaps, but you don't.

Peace be unto you

Crap be within you.

 

[scorpius]

Since the world is a result of chance events in the universe, as the atheists claim, then isn't it possible that we destroy the world, and let the universe have another crack at it, perhaps it'll create a 'peaceful world'. Maybe we will re-EVOL-ve. (EVOL is LOVE backwards) into beings that are more peaceful- anyways if everything was just in the state of 'energy' we would all just be One- and at peace with each other.

thats the most idiotic nonsense Ive ever heard.

I am in peace with all and so are all the atheists that I know,
its the religions that divide nations,people as they all think their particular belief is the best,YOU the religious fanatics,are the ones causing all the suffering wars and pain!
you talk peace be unto you but do just the opposite!

www.thereligionofpeace.com

 

[786]

Ahh, but those religious based....philosophies well Atheism just isn't compatable with them now is it?

This is so by definition- Theism and A-Theism - I don't think I need to say more.

But for some reason people not believing what you do really gets your goat, it really urks some little part of your brain, and so instead of using rational thought to come to a rational conclusion you demonize it.

Actually I'm not trying to demonize it. I'm trying to understand what Atheism fundamentally is saying. Secondly Atheism takes no stance on morals so I can't demonize its morality- all I can say is that because it it doesn't even matter in Atheism you're free to do otherwise 'immoral' things.

While I agree that comparing something to rape is a very persuasive line of argument I feel it is lacking somewhat in substance and actual validity.

It would be better if you backed that with why you think that way rather than leaving it as a statement.

I thought that since you felt so strongly about this particular subject you would at least be able to approach it with some well thought out arguments.

I have no strong feelings for Atheism, and it doesn't take a genius to realize that Atheism fundamentally is about the purposeless universe-

But I'm an optimist I guess

I seem to be the optimist here.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Well, that's not true either. Meaning is the relationship between two or more variables. Every atom, every quark, and every string have a massive amount of meaning.

Lets cut the story short- Does the universe have a purpose?

Allthough the second half of that is a true statement, I am not sure what it has to do with your original statement.

So the connection that a purposeless universe yield everything you do meaningless fundamentally doesn't make sense? I do recognize 'personal meaning' but was referring to the fundamental truth that really your actions are meaningless/purposeless as is your existence as is the universe.

Sounds like a whole lot of work for no gain to me.

And a gain is needed why?

Correct. "To matter" doesn't exist outside the scope of your own mind. Fortunately, I am programmed to matter to myself (i.e. my own mind) and that is a survival trait.

Right but another may not matter...

Objectively it doesn't.

I know....

Being "useless" is a subjective judgment. It doesn't exist outside the scope of your own mind.

I agree but again the term was used in the context of the universe being purposeless-

Almost correct. Energy isn't destroyed but the effect of biological sapience would be.

Ok, but why does biological sapience matter in the universe?

Well, you did ask if there is a reason why "we" shouldn't destroy life. Maybe the implication wasn't understood. People are programmed to matter to themselves. If you try to destroy them, they will stop you. It's less likely that someone with that kind of destructive intent would ever achieve a level of power to destroy the world.

Okay so the meaning of your life is programmed into you.

Because it's truth, and with truth comes power, and with power comes opportunity.

Thats all good to say for a human society, but in the universe there is only one truth- the universe is purposeless.

It's not the same thing. To destroy everything for 'whatever reason anyone wants' requires the ability to do so (which you do not have).

Well you don't need the ability to destroy everything, I was simply using the extreme case.

Only you can answer that question. It's subjective.

Yes, its directly related to your meaning of life- then again if someone wants to destroy something then its all and good because its subjective.

Incorrect. That cycle is chalk-full of relationships.

What... gravity will feel bad without electromagentic waves?

Atheism is the non-acceptance of the statment "<insert god here> exists".

True, Atheism does replace that with nature, if it doesn't for example- then it has replaced it with something that is probably just as unprovable as God- and thus the purpose of Atheism would be self-defeating. So Atheism, if replacing with nature, then its fundamental truth is that the universe is purposeless.

That kind of emphasis comes off as dishonesty.

No, because it was subjective

I think the belief that atheists think the universe is meaningless is just as bad as any other nutty belief.

What is the purpose of the universe?

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Actually, all that is meaningful to an Atheist IS this life.

To Atheists, I agree. But I'm talking about Atheism- they are not the same thing.

It would seem more likely that there is no meaning to this life in Theism. After all, according to that philosophy, the only point in living is to die - so we can go on to heaven, hell, etc..

Anyone ever consider that?

You got it wrong, the only point in living is not to die but to continue on living, so I did consider it

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Or anyone else is alive. OK. That's a fairly significant point, to me.

The existence of anyone does not need have any value.... It may be significant for you.... I didn't deny that.

That makes no sense. How does meaning for me require meaning for the entire universe? And to what would such a meaning apply- what is the outer context of everything?

I never said you can't have personal meaning- see my replies to spidergoat...

I do not think I am quite so important as all that. I think I can have meaning within a few billions of years, and a galaxy width or two - that seems to be enough room, for one human life.

Your existence doesn't change the fact that the universe in itself is purposeless.

And this meaning would be generated from the simpler, if course - arising from below, not handed down from above, as it were. We do not need to create a meaning for language in general throughout all of human life forever before the first words acquire theirs, eh?

You can have personal meaning....... gee I only wished you followed the thread.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

Perhaps, but you don't.

But I'm talking to atheists.... you have to discuss in terms what is understood by the person you are making the argument to... this is why all your arguments in the other threads are so stupid because you don't realize this.

Peace be unto you