Redux: Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

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Until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct genotype one cannot tell if the fetus is alive or human. So until you can prove for certain that there is human life it would be fine to abort. That point is at birth.

No. That point is way before birth. A DNA test can be performed on a baby in the womb, or simply on a sample of the ammiotic fluid.
You can even perform a paternity test in this manner.
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/what-is-a-prenatal-paternity-test.aspx?CategoryID=61&SubCategoryID=615

As for being alive, it is alive from the first cell, before a single division.

What on earth are you talking about?
 
No. That point is way before birth.

No, you can not tell if the correct phenotype has been expressed until after birth.


A DNA test can be performed on a baby in the womb, or simply on a sample of the ammiotic fluid.

A DNA test will not tell you if the DNA will express the correct phenotype. It will only increase the odds that the zygote/embryo/fetus will live and have enough human DNA. At conception there is only a 30 percent chance the there will be a birth.




As for being alive, it is alive from the first cell, before a single division.

There has been a continuous chain of life from the first humans a couple of hundred thousands of years ago until the point at which you test. Others claim the chain of life extends back 3.5 billion years ago from the first DNA until today.


What on earth are you talking about?


One cannot tell if there is life until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype.
 
No, you can not tell if the correct phenotype has been expressed until after birth.
Sure you can. You can do quite accurate ultrasounds to verify that the fetus is alive and healthy.
It will only increase the odds that the zygote/embryo/fetus will live and have enough human DNA.
Have you seen kids with, say, sheep DNA? Is that a common problem where you are?
One cannot tell if there is life until the DNA of the genotype expresses the correct phenotype.
Other than ultrasound. And heart rate monitors. And EEG's, and ECG's.

There is no question that even a 12 week old fetus is alive. They kick and flail around, they roll over, they sleep and wake. There is no way you could look at an ultrasound of a 12 week old fetus and decide that it is less alive than, say, a honeybee. (It' s bigger, too.)

The question is - what rights does the fetus have? It's a question that moderates have been pondering for some time.
 
Sure you can.

It is absolutely impossible. 70 percent of zygotes/embryos/fetuses die in the first trimester and 15 percent more die afterward. http://miscarriage.about.com/od/riskfactors/a/miscarriage-statistics.htm

You can do quite accurate ultrasounds to verify that the fetus is alive and healthy.

You don't have a clue if the fetus is alive one second after the Ultrasound is turned off. In fact the ultrasound could image a fetus that is brain dead or genetically flawed and unable to live outside the womb.


Have you seen kids with, say, sheep DNA?

There are no children with sheep DNA. But of the 70 percent of zygotes that die in the first trimester, 60 percent have DNA so flaws that they cannot live as a human and are aborted naturally. The remainder die of other causes. You may want to search Goggle images for "teratoma".




Is that a common problem where you are?

Yes, genetic problems are more common than live births. 42 percent of zygotes have genetic flaws and only 30 percent become babies. It is a common problem among all humans.

Other than ultrasound. And heart rate monitors. And EEG's, and ECG's.

None of the tests you suggest prove that a fetus will be alive at birth. In fact until there is a live birth, one cannot tell if the phenotype is human enough to live. Why, there are processes that must occur at birth that depend on the phenotype. If those processes do not occur because of genetic flaws, then the fetus never was human enough to live as a human. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002395.htm

There is no question that even a 12 week old fetus is alive.

There is a good chance a 12 week old fetus will be alive at birth, but you cannot prove it is alive or capable of birth until it is actually born. There is no way to tell if the fetus will "wake up" at any moment during gestation. There is no way to know if the fetal heart, which is different from a babies heart, will change as required. There is no way to know if the fetus is alive at any period of time, after any test, prior to birth.

They kick and flail around, they roll over, they sleep and wake.

The ones that are alive do. Once they are brain dead they may or may not. Once they abort, or are born alive, they may or may not live depending on whether or not the phenotype is correct.

There is no way you could look at an ultrasound of a 12 week old fetus and decide that it is less alive than, say, a honeybee. (It' s bigger, too.)

No, you don't know if it is brain dead or genetically flawed so badly that it cannot live outside the womb.

The question is - what rights does the fetus have?

The problem you have is you cannot prove the zygote/embryo/fetus is alive or human until it is born. So it should have no more rights than a sperm or egg.


It's a question that moderates have been pondering for some time.

Many moderates have been brainwashed with false information. Once they know the truth, they will no longer ponder anything. Once moderates learn of the fact that in order to force the birth of a fetus they must let a born baby die, they will no longer support any pro life propaganda.
 
This is how we do it...

House Republicans Kick Off 2014 With Renewed Focus On Abortion, Birth Control

As the Senate takes up a measure to extend unemployment insurance, Republicans in the House of Representatives are looking to make 2014 another banner year for anti-abortion laws.

A panel of 12 men on the House Judiciary Committee will hold a hearing on a bill Thursday that would deny tax subsidies to women and small businesses who purchase health insurance plans that include abortion coverage.​
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...-off-2014-_n_4563303.html?utm_hp_ref=politics


Somehow, this conjured the following hypothetical dialog:

Rep. Common Sense: "Why would you propose something like this Rep. T. Partier?"

Rep. T. Partier: "Well, if they can't afford to pay for an abortion they can't kill a person, right? Certainly you don't expect Joe Citizen to foot the bill for some irresponsible woman's abortion, do you?"

Rep. Common Sense: "But if she can't afford an abortion out of her own pocket how is she going to afford to raise a child?"

Rep. T. Partier: "She should have thought of that before she spread her legs."

Rep. Common Sense: "But the child will be born into poverty with little chance of getting out and will be 3x as likely to end up in a life of crime!"

Rep. T. Partier: "If they commit a crime we'll lock 'em up!"

Rep. Common Sense: But who will pay for this incarceration? This country already has the highest incarceration rate in the developed world!"

Rep. T. Partier: "Hey don't blame me for that, it's the liberals that want to be soft on criminals. I say hang em!"

Rep. Common Sense: "You mean kill them?"

Rep. T. Partier: "Yes. Justice should prevail."

Rep. Common Sense: "Ermmm... You do realize the public pays for executions, right?"

Rep. T. Partier: "Of course."

Rep. Common Sense: "So your saying Joe Citizen should foot the bill for killing this person?"

Rep. T. Partier: "Absolutely."

But then I shook it off and realized that such total and utter hypocrisy could not possibly exist in the real world, right?
 
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So before most women realise or know they are even pregnant...

Well when you have a child, you can make that decision for yourself.:)

Really? Most women notice a missed period within 4 weeks.
 
Really? Most women notice a missed period within 4 weeks.
Really? I have known woman that were exceptions to your "rule" so I googled it.

You will find if your pregnant within the first 2 months. Symptoms may appear after the first couple of days, or you may have to wait for your missed period. The missed period could be the next time you're due on, or occasionally it will be the month after. In rare cases some women do not display any symptoms of pregnancy and continue to have periods whilst pregnant, but most women find out they are pregnant during the 2nd and 3rd months.

Emphasis mine.

http://philpackard2011.hubpages.com/hub/How-Long-Does-It-Take-To-Find-Out-Your-Pregnant

Oops...
 
It is absolutely impossible. 70 percent of zygotes/embryos/fetuses die in the first trimester and 15 percent more die afterward.

The second part of your sentence had nothing to do with the first part.

You don't have a clue if the fetus is alive one second after the Ultrasound is turned off.

Your cluelessness does not impact whether something is alive. I assume people do not execute your will when you are asleep, since they can't tell if you are dead or not.

You don't have a clue if the fetus is alive one second after the Ultrasound is turned off. In fact the ultrasound could image a fetus that is brain dead

So in your expert opinion, a fetus that is observed to be moving around, kicking, flailing his arms etc might just be brain dead?

There are no children with sheep DNA. But of the 70 percent of zygotes that die in the first trimester, 60 percent have DNA so flaws that they cannot live as a human and are aborted naturally. The remainder die of other causes.

You didn't say anything about dying. You claimed they might not " have enough human DNA." Human fetuses have 100% human DNA.

Yes, genetic problems are more common than live births. 42 percent of zygotes have genetic flaws and only 30 percent become babies. It is a common problem among all humans.

Again, you were arguing that this was because they do not "have enough human DNA." You are, again, wrong. In fact the opposite is sometimes true.

There is a good chance a 12 week old fetus will be alive at birth, but you cannot prove it is alive or capable of birth until it is actually born. There is no way to tell if the fetus will "wake up" at any moment during gestation. There is no way to know if the fetal heart, which is different from a babies heart, will change as required. There is no way to know if the fetus is alive at any period of time, after any test, prior to birth.

Right. And there is no way to know if you will be alive tomorrow. Your point?

No, you don't know if it is brain dead . . .

Yes, you do.

Look, you seem to know almost nothing about human fetal development. Why not take a few days, read up on the subject, and come back? You might come off looking a little better.

Many moderates have been brainwashed with false information.

Yep. Only extremists such as yourself can see the truth.

Once they know the truth, they will no longer ponder anything. Once moderates learn of the fact that in order to force the birth of a fetus they must let a born baby die, they will no longer support any pro life propaganda.

Still waiting for who we had to let die to force our son to be born. Or if you like, choose any abortion anywhere that someone didn't get. Show us which born baby they had to let die. Take a few days, read up on human development and basic logic, and come back. You might even learn something in the process. We'll wait.
 
Not athletes (or other people who miss periods for other reasons.)

Really? I have known woman that were exceptions to your "rule" so I googled it.

You will find if your pregnant within the first 2 months. Symptoms may appear after the first couple of days, or you may have to wait for your missed period. The missed period could be the next time you're due on, or occasionally it will be the month after. In rare cases some women do not display any symptoms of pregnancy and continue to have periods whilst pregnant, but most women find out they are pregnant during the 2nd and 3rd months.

Emphasis mine.

http://philpackard2011.hubpages.com/hub/How-Long-Does-It-Take-To-Find-Out-Your-Pregnant

Oops...

If they used responsible contraception then perhaps some concessions could be made, and if fetal brain waves are not detected it is not an issue. Either way, it is significantly earlier than the 24 weeks currently allowed.
 
billvon said:
Not athletes (or other people who miss periods for other reasons.)
Randwolf said:
Really? I have known woman that were exceptions to your "rule" so I googled it.

You will find if your pregnant within the first 2 months. Symptoms may appear after the first couple of days, or you may have to wait for your missed period. The missed period could be the next time you're due on, or occasionally it will be the month after. In rare cases some women do not display any symptoms of pregnancy and continue to have periods whilst pregnant, but most women find out they are pregnant during the 2nd and 3rd months.


Emphasis mine.

http://philpackard2011.hubpages.com/...-Your-Pregnant

Oops...
If they used responsible contraception then perhaps some concessions could be made, and if fetal brain waves are not detected it is not an issue. Either way, it is significantly earlier than the 24 weeks currently allowed.
What does that even remotely have to do with the posts you are quoting? Have you totally lost it?


Setting that aside, perhaps you should check out EF's post:

3. "46% of women who had abortions had not used contraceptives in the month they became pregnant"​
That means 54% "of women who had abortions had not used contraceptives in the month they became pregnant". What does this say to your assertion "If they used responsible contraception then perhaps some concessions could be made"? Are you saying that you support 54% of all abortions?

You're losing your grip fast here Syne...
 
The second part of your sentence had nothing to do with the first part.

You are simply wrong. Nice try. In the first trimester 70 percent of conceptions die, in the next two trimesters, 15 percent of those that are left die.
http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/4/333.full.pdf+html
http://miscarriage.about.com/od/riskfactors/a/miscarriage-statistics.htm




Your cluelessness does not impact whether something is alive. I assume people do not execute your will when you are asleep, since they can't tell if you are dead or not.

Here you are again trying to use an ad hominem because you have no argument. The point I am making is that your tests on a fetus are invalid because you cannot directly see the fetus and you cannot directly know if it is alive or dead or even human. You can tell a born person is alive and human when they are asleep.



So in your expert opinion, a fetus that is observed to be moving around, kicking, flailing his arms etc might just be brain dead?

I clearly said that most are alive and human. ---- What you can't do is prove which ones are alive or human enough to live and which are simply brain dead.


You didn't say anything about dying.

You have been following me around and know that death is part of the equation. This is part of a continuing conversation.


You claimed they might not " have enough human DNA." Human fetuses have 100% human DNA.

All human babies, in fact all humans that are born, have nearly 100 percent human DNA when viewed retrospectively. But life is not created retrospectively. Life is created prospectively. And prospectively 70 percent of zygotes die in the first trimester. In fact of 100 pairs of gametes that enter into conception, only 30 pair become babies. Life is not created at conception, life is killed at conception.-- And 42 pair do not have enough human DNA to live as humans.

Because pro lifers lie and say that life starts at conception, you as a pro lifer must defend that lie. And the only way you can defend the lie is to continue to say that life starts at conception and that all humans have 100 percent human DNA. But the scientific fact is that 42 percent of conceptions are not human life and only 30 percent will become human babies. So try to continue spreading that lie. I will expose you everywhere I find you. http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/4/333.full.pdf+html





Again, you were arguing that this was because they do not "have enough human DNA."

They don't have enough human DNA to live as a human and therefor abort naturally. http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/4/333.full.pdf+html


You are, again, wrong. In fact the opposite is sometimes true.

I am sorry you are wrong. http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/4/333.full.pdf+html



Right. And there is no way to know if you will be alive tomorrow. Your point?

I am born and the odds of me being alive tomorrow, even though I am nearly 65 years old, are greater than a zygote being alive at conception.




Look, you seem to know almost nothing about human fetal development.

Your ad hominem responses are a waste of time.


Why not take a few days, read up on the subject, and come back? You might come off looking a little better.

Your ad hominem responses are a waste of time.



Yep. Only extremists such as yourself can see the truth.

Your ad hominem responses are a waste of time.



Still waiting for who we had to let die to force our son to be born.

There is not need to lie here, anyone can look back at our posts and see that I told you quite clearly that no one was forced to die because of your actions.


Or if you like, choose any abortion anywhere that someone didn't get. Show us which born baby they had to let die.

And it is clear to anyone that is following this series of posts that no baby ever had to die because someone didn't get an abortion.
That is simply a lie and distortion that you use.

This is what I say. You have a choice, you may choose to save a baby or you can choose to let it die and save a fetus instead. Your choice and the choice of all pro lifers is to let innocent, loved, wanted and born babies die. That is your choice. When you choose to let babies die, and you want to look at them, you can go to one of many internet sites to look and drool. One place you can go that will actually show you a representative view of what the people you kill may look like, can be found here: http://www.poverty.com Why not go and have a look. You need to see the starving babies you let die.



Take a few days, read up on human development and basic logic, and come back. You might even learn something in the process. We'll wait.

That is another ad hominem response that is a complete waste of time.
 
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Really? Most women notice a missed period within 4 weeks.
If you are a 13 year old girl who has only just started menstruating, and you are sitting there counting the days, sure.

The only thing that I noticed out of sorts was this obsession with eating salad (and I realised this was unusual after I had found out I was pregnant and it was a case of 'oh, that's why I was so obsessed with salad') and feeling like I had the flu. I didn't even think pregnant until the doctor then asked me when was the last time I had my period. And I still didn't think it was that and was still convinced it was the flu until she made me do the pee test just in case and it came back positive, because we had used contraception.

And I was then sent for a scan and blood test to confirm everything that afternoon and I was just past 8 weeks.

So by your reasoning, my window of opportunity would have passed before I even knew I was pregnant.:rolleyes: After all, we used contraception. In fact, I remember the dread because I had still been taking the pill up to that point and even had a few glasses of wine and had eaten sushi and brie in that time.. There are some women who do not find out or realise they are pregnant until much later, because they continue to menstruate, may be overweight, so they don't notice their stomach growing bigger, or they have no symptoms at all.

It is unrealistic and frankly idiotic to set a date of 8 weeks.

If they used responsible contraception then perhaps some concessions could be made, and if fetal brain waves are not detected it is not an issue. Either way, it is significantly earlier than the 24 weeks currently allowed.
So if they are religious or unable to access contraception, and are forced to use the rhythm method, they are not responsible?

Also, brainwaves cannot be detected until 12 weeks but "brainwaves" actually start from around week 5 to 6. That is when the primal parts of the brain form and start to function.

But once again, the "responsible" argument. Which keeps on failing.
 
......This is what I say. You have a choice, you may choose to save a baby or you can choose to let it die and save a fetus instead......

This is the part of your argument I don't understand at all.
Could you give a real life example?
Say there is a woman called Sally who is twelve weeks pregnant.
What choice will save a fetus, and what choice will save a baby?

Please don't say you've already given the answer.
If you did, I didn't understand it.
 
This is the part of your argument I don't understand at all.

I will give you a personal explanation below, but what part of the following confused you:

There are more people dying than can be saved, therefore one must choose whom to save, either a fetus or a born baby. If they choose to save a fetus, the born baby dies and if they choose to save the baby, the fetus dies.

That seems very straight forward to me. You should be able to take any of the ideas above and ask a question or make a sensible remark. So tell me what confused you.


Could you give a real life example?

If your intent is to find a flaw, you will be sadly disappointed. This has been in online peer review for two years and there is nothing a scientist here will find that a different scientist somewhere else did not find.

Say there is a woman called Sally who is twelve weeks pregnant.

It took Copernicus 50 years to defeat the church and other scientists that were under the rule of the church. It could take me 50 years to end the oppressive actions of religiously based pro lifers as well (even though I am Christian myself). So I will say Sally lives in 2080 and has had the benefit of living as a woman under the "Scientific Abortion Laws." She knows that life is continuous and that gametes have all the same characteristics as a zygote. She knows that everyone in the world that is born, instantly starts to die. She knows that she has bodily autonomy and that her autonomy must be used wisely. She knows that if she aborts one baby or fetus, in order to give birth to another, she has chosen to make a choice based upon her love of babies and her love of her fellow humans. She knows it is cruel to force a baby to be born to a woman that does not want a baby because that woman may simply not be able to afford a child at that moment and have a plan for another baby in the future. If the first baby is forced, the second baby is denied life. She knows the pro life movement of the past made a false analogy and simply assumed that a baby wanted to be born, even if it caused the death or suffering of its siblings or mother. Because she knows all these things she accepts her duty to herself and plans any pregnancy she intends and uses birth control (the pill and abortion) to support her natural right to autonomy. http://www.scientificabortionlaws.com

What choice will save a fetus, and what choice will save a baby?

In 2080, in Sally's life, there are 10 billion people on the earth. Every born person is dying, because that is how nature works. Everyone dies and therefore everyone needs to be saved. By saved I mean that many people (think of compassionate governments and people such as Bill Gates and Ted Turner) have more than enough resources and want to share those resources to help others. And in 2080 a system of world wide triage has been set up under the "Scientific Abortion Laws" and the free nations of the world have chosen to adopt triage such that the most lives can be saved. In such a system it is recognized that the first action in any compassionate care system is choosing whom to save. The issue has been resolved and the choice is based upon triage.
To focus on your question in 2014 one must use those same principles from 2080 that will in fact be adopted because they are scientific law. There is no other possible outcome because the current system is flawed and causes born babies to be killed.
In 2014 there are 7 billion people on earth, they are all dying. And one must choose either to save a born person or an unborn person z/e/f. Why, because there are only born people and unborn people on earth. So one or the other can be saved. Because all 7 billion born people are dying, a choice not to save one of the 7 billion is a choice to let that person die and they will become one of the 57 million people that will die this year. And a choice not to save an unwanted zygote/embryo/fetus , unborn human life, is a choice to let the fetus die. Either the fetus dies or the baby dies.
We must use some type of logic to choose which person to save. We know for a fact that triage can be used to save the most life possible when there are more people dying than can be saved. So we choose to use triage. Using triage we determine that of the billions of people (both born people and unborn z/e/f) dying, many are dying because of a lack of resources, some are dying because of poor law making regarding allocation of resources or other government action. We know that we could pass laws that say that no born baby shall be allowed to die and we could also pass laws that say that no fetus shall be allowed to die. We could just as well pass laws that say that no child shall be allowed to die or that no adult shall be allowed to die. We know that such laws without triage simply favor fetuses over babies or babies over fetuses so we know that such a law would be foolish. Therefore in 2014 we find that there are scientific laws that make one part of our choice simple. Those laws are the "Scientific Abortion Laws" and they make it clear that one should not pass laws that give advantage to unborn z/e/f life or deny abortion because the chance of dying from natural abortion is 70 percent for zygotes, 15 percent after the zygote stage and 1 percent before birth and those deaths cannot be avoided. A choice to save the z/e/f is therefore thwarted by the fact that even if saved they may abort naturally.

We should only save born life. Why, because the "Scientific Abortion Laws" make it clear in six different ways that born life is a better candidate to be saved. (Though in some rare instances a z/e/f should be saved.) For example one may choose to save a born person or a zygote but they cannot save both. Why, because there are 7 billion people dying and if we choose to attempt to force the birth of a zygote after conception, then we are simply choosing not to save a born person. The instant we save one born life, there is another that will die in the next half second. And we don't even know where it will die. So we must either find and save that person, or we can choose to let it die. If we choose to let the second person die and instead of saving the person, we pass a law making abortion illegal and spend a year establishing the law (that historically will be overturned) then in that time of suspension born people will be dying at the rate of 1.8 per second. (It would have been a better choice to pass a law that says no life shall be allowed to die. Why should the fetus have a benefit the rest of society does not have.) In addition we would have then passed a law requiring fetuses be born but not requiring that babies be saved. In such a situation some mothers would be required to let their dying or suffering children continue to suffer or die while she spends her resources saving the fetus. Which is where we are in Texas.

Now, say society actually does pass a law that says that all --born -- babies must be saved, that would not change the situation, it would make the life of a baby more valuable than the life of a fetus, child or adult. Why, because such a law would be unfair to unborn life, children and adults and they would act to hinder the law and avoid the law. Why because some may want to live also. One could also pass a law that says that all fetuses must be saved. But such a law would also be hindered once people find that fetuses can be forced to be born making the life of the born baby worth less than the unborn baby. Then the fact will be that born babies will die to save unborn babies. Also a law that places the life of a fetus above the life of all other people will lead to the death of born people to save fetuses. So pro baby, pro child, pro adult laws along with anti abortion laws are simply laws that place the value of one life above the other. Such laws are incompatible with a free society. No life should be valued above another life, not a fetus, not a born baby and certainly not an adult.

That leaves us with the fact that some method must be used to determine who shall live and who shall die. That type of choice, when it is personal is up to the individual. If one chooses to save only fetuses, then that should be their right. If some choose to only save babies, that is their right.
Even though forcing the birth of either babies or fetuses will cause an increase in death of other people, because triage is not used, a person still has the right to let those people die. But if the issue is public law, public policy, church policy or charity policy the only fair way to determine who shall live and who shall die is through the use of triage. In using triage, the most life possible is saved. And triage shows that in normal circumstances it is almost always better to save a born baby than a fetus.

So we have determined that triage should be used to save the most life possible. And we have determined that the "Scientific Abortion Laws" should be used to support triage.


Please don't say you've already given the answer.

Now I have given the answer in a more complicated manner. If you need a simpler version read the "burning baby analogy" or the story of "Joepro Lifer". They simplify the issue considerably.


If you did, I didn't understand it.

The way to understand the "Law of Charity" is to understand what it is not and what it is. It is a scientific law, it says there are more people dying than can be saved. If you want to dispute or disprove the law, then that is the issue you must disprove. If you want to disprove the "Theory of Choice" then you must either prove that the "Law of Charity" is invalid or that when one claims to save life, there are more choices than saving a born or an unborn life. Arguments on other matters will be a waste of time.

I don't want to dissuade you from attempting to dispute the laws by posting this, I am only trying to help you understand where the weaknesses are and where I think there is strength.
 
What does that even remotely have to do with the posts you are quoting? Have you totally lost it?


Setting that aside, perhaps you should check out EF's post:

3. "46% of women who had abortions had not used contraceptives in the month they became pregnant"​
That means 54% "of women who had abortions had not used contraceptives in the month they became pregnant". What does this say to your assertion "If they used responsible contraception then perhaps some concessions could be made"? Are you saying that you support 54% of all abortions?

You're losing your grip fast here Syne...

I thank you for the effort, but try to click the link: "Among those women [the 56%], 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use."

I think we really need to teach some people that contraceptives are not something used occasionally, but always or else they lose their effectiveness. As for abortion again nothing to do with how irresponsible the women were, which we have statistically evidence a majority of them were. If we had to have proof of proper contraceptive use, rape, medical defect, etc for an abortion that would mean having to get the legal system involve and mindless amount of red tape for something that growing and very time dependent, on the other hand if we disprove the personhood of the fetus all of this is irrelevant: a women could get an abortion for what ever reason.
 
Thanks Russell.
It is a matter of limited resources.
I understand your reasoning now.


I agree that at some point the world will have to control it's population.
Either through sexual restraint (unlikely), contraception, or starvation.
 
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Thanks Russell.
It is a matter of limited resources.
I understand your reasoning now.

I agree that at some point the world will have to control it's population.
Either through sexual restraint (unlikely), contraception, or starvation.

Technically they already beginning to, just look at the birthrates of most developed nations, they are very low, some even have negative birthrates (dying off). The exact social causes are probably a convolution of many variables all cause by high affluence: having to spend too much time working, the very high price of children, all the other forms of entertainment available other then fucking in the bushes, etc, etc. I would not be surprised that by the end the century, "lovebots" will have curbed almost all sex between people.
 
Thanks Russell.

I want to personally thank you for sticking with it and I hope my further comments will not change your understanding about the issue of limited resources. I hope you can find some flaws in the laws that will help me further advance the scientific value they may have.

It is a matter of limited resources.
I understand your reasoning now.

You are correct, as a second impact of the laws, The first impact is due to a choice of whom to save.

The laws on the first level are based only upon choice, because the very first thing that must be done is to make the right choice. After the choice is made, then of course, resources have an impact. But on the very first level it depends only on choice, mainly because if the number of available resources changes, then it will not change the fact that one must be saved or it dies. (Because all human life dies and needs to be saved) The assumption is that whatever resources are available will be used to save life. If there are surplus resources and a person chooses to save a fetus, then there would still be a loss of life of a born person, why, because all life dies and more are dying than can be saved, even with surplus resources.
I understand that is a very, very difficult concept to envision, but it is true. We can discuss why, if my explanation above is insufficient.


I agree that at some point the world will have to control it's population.

Yes, but there are theories that indicate that we will level off at 10 billion people and then begin to decrease in population. Actually ---------------- I don't think anyone knows what will happen in the future.


Either through sexual restraint (unlikely), contraception, or starvation.

My gut feeling is that you are right that a need for contraception will be great and a problem with starvation will occur. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is working on both of those issues.
 
I thank you for the effort, but try to click the link: "Among those women [the 56%], 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users report having used their method inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users report correct use."

I think we really need to teach some people that contraceptives are not something used occasionally, but always or else they lose their effectiveness. As for abortion again nothing to do with how irresponsible the women were, which we have statistically evidence a majority of them were. If we had to have proof of proper contraceptive use, rape, medical defect, etc for an abortion that would mean having to get the legal system involve and mindless amount of red tape for something that growing and very time dependent, on the other hand if we disprove the personhood of the fetus all of this is irrelevant: a women could get an abortion for what ever reason.
You're right - I should slow down and read more carefully. My point to Syne still stands, just not as strongly... :eek:
 
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