Reincarnation

[phlogistician]

"Crowd control exercise" is not necessarily bad.
If people don't control their consumption, they cause heavy damage to the planet, damage even beyond recovery.
Those interested in survival will limit their consumption so that also tomorrow, and next generations, will have clean air to breathe, good food to eat and clean water to drink.

I agree with the sentiment, but disagree vehemently with the method. People should be given the facts, and make decisions based on those. People should be nice to each other and consume less because it makes sense, not because of a religious myth.

And it heightens one's expectations and aspirations in real life to the extreme.
Believing in rebirth, ...
Belief in rebirth makes a person extremely ambitious.

Hmm, no, here I disagree. The Hindu religion is based on re-incarnation, and had a rigid caste system, and it was pretty unlikely that anyone would change from the caste they were born into. This limits aspirations rather, if you were born an 'untouchable' you are never going to get a better life. Literally people would not touch this caste, so becoming a servant even would be difficult. Of course the top level of the cast system were priests. Religion in control, and subjugating people yet again.

 

[greenberg]

I agree with the sentiment, but disagree vehemently with the method. People should be given the facts, and make decisions based on those. People should be nice to each other and consume less because it makes sense, not because of a religious myth.

In order for something to be considered to make sense, a system of knowledge or beliefs or values, is necessary in relation to which that something can be evaluated.
On its own, nothing makes sense.

Hmm, no, here I disagree. The Hindu religion is based on re-incarnation, and had a rigid caste system, and it was pretty unlikely that anyone would change from the caste they were born into. This limits aspirations rather, if you were born an 'untouchable' you are never going to get a better life. Literally people would not touch this caste, so becoming a servant even would be difficult. Of course the top level of the cast system were priests. Religion in control, and subjugating people yet again.

I was referring to rebirth, which is a Buddhist notion. The OP and the thrust of the thread at first didn't distinguish between the two.

 

[phlogistician]

In order for something to be considered to make sense, a system of knowledge or beliefs or values, is necessary in relation to which that something can be evaluated.
On its own, nothing makes sense.

I agree, and that framework should be factual, scientific, and ethical. Not mythical.

I was referring to rebirth, which is a Buddhist notion. The OP and the thrust of the thread at first didn't distinguish between the two.

Doesn't matter if it's re-incarnation of rebirth, as both are notions used to limit people's expectations.

 

[greenberg]

I agree, and that framework should be factual, scientific, and ethical. Not mythical.

It's "mythical" only in reference to a particular system of thought, namely that of Western Science.

Doesn't matter if it's re-incarnation of rebirth, as both are notions used to limit people's expectations.

Limiting one's expectations isn't negative per se. Science, too, limits people's expectations.

 

[Avatar]

Thread cleaned up a bit. Sorry, I was away for 3 days.

 

[phlogistician]

It's "mythical" only in reference to a particular system of thought, namely that of Western Science.

The 'western' part was superfluous, but it's telling. Look kid, there's science, and there's esoteric bullshit. Neither are restricted to one hemisphere or the other.

Limiting one's expectations isn't negative per se. Science, too, limits people's expectations.

Only to what is possible, probable, rational and ethical. You want the converse of these things, well, why yes, indulge in some religion.

 

[Myles]

The most sensible response I've read so far. I never cease to be amazed at human credulity. People can believe anything; and they do. Asked to explain why they believe something, religious people invariably respond by giving vague answers, none of which can be supported by verifiable , objective evidence.

I once asked a young woman who believed in reincarnation where all the extra souls were coming from as the world population continues to grow. Her answer was enlightening. She told me that waves of spiritual energy were continuously striking the earth. I gave up at that point.

Myles

 

[Avatar]

Please stick to the anthropological side of reincarnation or I'll close this thread.
Personal beliefs are for Religion or Philosophy subforum.

 

[Exhumed]

Myles if you are curious I think people can give you reasonable explanations, but I guess we are not supposed to in this forum. So make a thread in a different religious forum if you are interested. The population "problem" you mentioned I already answered. (Though if you wish to debate it it's not supposed to be in this forum.)

 

[Grantywanty]

Reincarnation is not restricted to Eastern Religions.
Some Native American groups believed in it. Sufis, some Christian groups, even Orthodox Jews.
My sense is that these various groups do not see reincarnation in the same structured way the Eastern Religions do and also have different notions of Karma. The caste system which plays a role in Hindu interpretations of reincarnation would be a point of difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation

 

[phlogistician]

The population "problem" you mentioned I already answered. (Though if you wish to debate it it's not supposed to be in this forum.)

Was this that explanation;

For my view it was basically that parts of our character can also exist in others, and the same is true for whatever part of our character we think is essential. So it is not a transfer of soul to a new person--there would be multiple people with the same character essence at once.

So, if the population doubles, people have half as much character?

 

[Myles]

Apology to Avatar

It was no part of my intention to offend religious sensibilities or to depart from this thread. It's simply that the numerous references to reincarnation I have come across have invariably been in a religious context.

My understanding is that we are said to reincarnate until we have reached a point where we achieve liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth. If this is so, then it is reasonable to expect a decline in the population as some people achieve release. I have yet to hear an explanation of reincarnation supported by objective evidence rather than what I regard as wild speculation based on subjective belief.

 

[Avatar]

Comparative Religion doesn't deal with whether there really was a garden of eden or if there really is reincarnation, it's left to religious faith and metaphors. It's mythology not history.
As a part of Anthropology CR looks where and for what reasons do people believe in and do certain things.

 

[Grantywanty]

My understanding is that we are said to reincarnate until we have reached a point where we achieve liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth. If this is so, then it is reasonable to expect a decline in the population as some people achieve release.

If one goes on certain assumptions: for example, that we started with all the souls. Or we built up to the maximum at some point in the past and at that point it should have been dropping.

Even within the Eastern traditions I have caught hints that one can choose to fall out of enlightenment and restart the process. Or that pieces of the whole are breaking off and restarting from basic levels. So this would allow for more new souls. Also we could be building up to the actual maximum - God, I hope so.

I have also heard theories based on the idea that souls are fragmenting into pieces, hence the greater numbers and that at some point there will be reassembling or that this is part of coming to enlightenment.

Further, I believe the Buddhists and Hindus focus on the developmental stages toward perfection, while other groups do not have this focus and do not need to explain growing numbers in the face of what should be enlightened drop outs reducing to totals.

 

[greenberg]

A few things -

(1) Beings don't necessarily reincarnate or are reborn as the same species. In one lifetime, one can be a goat, in another a rat, in another a human and so on.

(2) Beings don't necessarily reincarnate or are reborn right after they die. Some time may elapse before a being becomes reincarnated or reborn.

(3) There are different realms in which beings are reincarnated or reborn.

That accounts for the variations in the numbers of beings (of a particular species) respective to time and space.

 

[Myles]

A few things -

(1) Beings don't necessarily reincarnate or are reborn as the same species. In one lifetime, one can be a goat, in another a rat, in another a human and so on.

(2) Beings don't necessarily reincarnate or are reborn right after they die. Some time may elapse before a being becomes reincarnated or reborn.

(3) There are different realms in which beings are reincarnated or reborn.

If one accepts the commonly held view that advancement and eventual liberation from the cycle of birth and rebirth are achieved through merit, in what sense could a rat be considered meritorious ? Are rats' fleas also reborn ?

What explanation is offered for a possible delay in being reborn ?

 

[Myles]

Even within the Eastern traditions I have caught hints that one can choose to fall out of enlightenment and restart the process. Or that pieces of the whole are breaking off and restarting from basic levels. So this would allow for more new souls. Also we could be building up to the actual maximum - God, I hope so.

I have also heard theories based on the idea that souls are fragmenting into pieces, hence the greater numbers and that at some point there will be reassembling or that this is part of coming to enlightenment.

Further, I believe the Buddhists and Hindus focus on the developmental stages toward perfection, while other groups do not have this focus and do not need to explain growing numbers in the face of what should be enlightened drop outs reducing to totals.

There is a Buddhist belief that a being who achieves enlightenment and release, an Arhant, may choose to return and help others. This would argue a faster reduction in the population than if beings were left to their own devices, as it were. But we know that the population is growing.

I have not previously heard of fragmenting souls, so am moved to ask in what sense a non-physical object can fragment and whether the fragments are of a uniform size.

 

[Avatar]

You are discussing mythology as if it were physics.

 

[Grantywanty]

There is a Buddhist belief that a being who achieves enlightenment and release, an Arhant, may choose to return and help others. This would argue a faster reduction in the population than if beings were left to their own devices, as it were. But we know that the population is growing.

I'm not a Buddhist. I don't want to defend their math. I think Greenberg offered some possible solutions to this above. We don't know the number of souls. We don't know all the realms they may spend time in or shift between. I don't think you have found a contradiction.

I have not previously heard of fragmenting souls, so am moved to ask in what sense a non-physical object can fragment and whether the fragments are of a uniform size.

1) I think our notions of and distinctions between physical and energetic __________ (I am not sure what the noun should be) come from a very Newtonian perspective. I think this fuels some of the skepticism about such things. We see a Newtonian world, even if we have read Einstein and QM and beyond.
2) There are animals that can be broken in half and each half regrows a whole being.
3) I don't think the fragments are the same size. And a look around at people shows a variety of depths, breadths, richness etc.

 

[Myles]

We don't know all the realms they may spend time in or shift between. I don't think you have found a contradiction.

You have told me what you don't know. Can you now please tell me what you do know and how you know it, as I'm trying to understand reincarnation.

I accept your point about animals being broken and regenerated, earthworms come to mind, but such animals are surely special cases. I suggest you are arguing from the particular to the general without discussing possible intermediate phases. You also seem to assume that animals and souls are in the same category, something that many would deny.


I also accept your point about our Newtonian ( mechanistic ) view of things ,because that is all we have to go on. I am not aware that QM or Einstein suggest there is anything other than a physical universe. Both represent attempts to explain how " matter " behaves.