Religious miracles

Magical Realist

Magical Realist

Valued Senior Member
Religious miracles pose something of a problem for an atheist like myself. I don't believe in God or Jesus or the saints, and yet there are several documented cases of amazing miraculous events occurring in the lives of certain people thruout history. Healings, visions, apparitions, manifestations of light, materialization of rose petals, and stigmata all cluster around these people, suggesting something of a Fortean nature occurring that defies our current models of understanding. Here's an interesting case for example. See what you think..

 
Magical Realist said:
Religious miracles pose something of a problem for an atheist like myself. I don't believe in God or Jesus or the saints, and yet there are several documented cases of amazing miraculous events occurring in the lives of certain people thruout history. Healings, visions, apparitions, manifestations of light, materialization of rose petals, and stigmata all cluster around these people, suggesting something of a Fortean nature occurring that defies our current models of understanding. Here's an interesting case for example. See what you think..
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From Google

The term 'Fortean' comes from Charles Fort, a writer and researcher, who spent several decades in the early 1900's collecting and studying reports of events that lay beyond the accepted beliefs of the time.

He argued against scientific proof being a necessity when it came to acceptance and beliefs, as it was too narrow minded and the rigours of testing and following method left out the real wonders of our world

http://www.theparanormalguide.com/blog/fortean-phenomena

-------------
My BOLD in the above extract

In other words
Let's not be narrow minded, just believe

Your mission, should you choose to accept it M R, is to please explain to me where is the cut off point between
I believe and
I don't believe

This post will not self destruct since the elves who make the self destruct circuit are to busy helping Santa

:)
 
Good overview of this phenomenon including pro's and con's of possible explanations.

http://weekinweird.com/2009/09/14/stigmata-medical-mystery-or-miracle/

"As shocking as the claims of stigmata may be, it is obvious that in some cases, those afflicted are experiencing something very real that has yet to be properly identified and categorized. Whether that affliction is of a religious nature or a scientific one has yet to be distinguished and leaves the door open for continuous debate. If we cannot prove stigmata is caused by a legitimate disorder in the mind or body, is it reasonable for some to conclude that in those few extreme cases, perhaps there are genuine miracles at work? Or, as Humes suggested, are we then giving up all reason to believe in a hoax?"
 
Magical Realist said:
Whether that affliction is of a religious nature or a scientific one has yet to be distinguished and leaves the door open for continuous debate.
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Has it been settled, percentage wise, how many percent of afflicted are religious? and how many agnostic?

:)
 
The affliction seems to correspond to one's religious belief.

I think we are dealing here with the physical externalization of an intense mental state. Conversion disorder is an example of bodily disorder brought own by stress, often mimicking the symptoms of real diseases. Hysterical pregnancies is another. Other more "paranormal" examples might include spontaneous human combustions, possessions, and even scars on alien abductees. I think we underestimate the power of belief and various psychic states on the physical body.

Corrrection: SHC doesn't seem related with an intense belief at all. Something else must trigger that reaction.
 
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Magical Realist said:
SHC doesn't seem related with an intense belief at all. Something else must trigger that reaction.
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Shoose I've heard being drunk and smoking are linked to people bursting into flames

Do you think it is serious enough to be put as a warning alongside smoking causes cancer?
CAUTION TRYING TO LIGHT OUR PRODUCT WHILE DRUNK MAY CAUSE YOU TO SET YOURSELF ALIGHT
You think that would be enough to stop the scourge of people burning?
Or do you feel another mysterious force is at work here?
Since we stopped burning people at the stake these people are missing the attention and getting so hot under the collar poof up they go in smoke (or trying to smoke)

:)
 
Michael 345 said:
Shoose I've heard being drunk and smoking are linked to people bursting into flames

Do you think it is serious enough to be put as a warning alongside smoking causes cancer?
CAUTION TRYING TO LIGHT OUR PRODUCT WHILE DRUNK MAY CAUSE YOU TO SET YOURSELF ALIGHT
You think that would be enough to stop the scourge of people burning?
Or do you feel another mysterious force is at work here?
Since we stopped burning people at the stake these people are missing the attention and getting so hot under the collar poof up they go in smoke (or trying to smoke)

:)
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Magical Realist said:
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That's it???? Couple of minutes of someone saying they burst into flame????
Where's the depth of the investigation?
Where are the specialist?
Where are the people from the fire brigade who check out suspicious fires?
Surely they would want to know about such incidents
Give me more more more information I'm begging you

:)
 
Magical Realist said:
Religious miracles pose something of a problem for an atheist like myself.
Click to expand...

The way I think of religious miracles is as a subset of anomalous experiences. Some anomalous experiences may correspond to objective anomalous events, but others are almost certainly subjective and psychological. Even if something is really happening, and even if what's happening is truly extraordinary, the event might still be misinterpreted in terms of preexisting interests and beliefs. So part of the difficulty for those trying to understand anomalous experiences is penetrating the layers of interpretation.

I don't believe in God or Jesus or the saints, and yet there are several documented cases of amazing miraculous events occurring in the lives of certain people thruout history.
Click to expand...

It isn't just Jesus, Mary and the Saints. There are many stories of miraculous events in Islamic tradition, they are a staple of Indian tradition where accomplished yogis are often said to manifest 'siddhis'. Very similar stories are often told about accomplished Tibetan monks. Similar tales were common in pagan antiquity as well (Apollonius of Tyana might be an example). My guess is that they can be found world-wide, in all traditions.

Healings, visions, apparitions, manifestations of light, materialization of rose petals, and stigmata all cluster around these people, suggesting something of a Fortean nature occurring that defies our current models of understanding.
Click to expand...

Could be. Maybe holy men (and women) of various traditions occasionally tap into something that isn't yet understood. (And in our militantly atheist intellectual climate, that's typically dismissed without any examination.) Or alternatively, maybe religious believers of various sorts imaginatively associate expected kinds of miraculous events with individuals thought of as particularly holy. And likely some individuals who want people to think of them as particularly holy will try to fake these manifestations.

My tendency is to think of religious miracles as part of a bigger phenomenon-set that includes all sorts of supposedly-paranormal events. The religious ones are just the ones to which religious imagery and concepts have been attached. Others are more secular, but may turn out to have very similar explanations.

In my estimation most of this stuff has a fairly low likelihood of being objectively true and I'm inclined to think of it as largely psychological. But that's fascinating in its own right. I don't want to 100% dismiss it or ridicule it.

A way to approach it might be the descriptive way William James employed in his famous 'The Varieties of Religious Experience'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Varieties_of_Religious_Experience
 
"… no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavors to establish."
- Hume, Of Miracles
 
My phone is a miracle, as is my car, my camera, powdered milk and auto opening doors.
And the folk mistaking hoaxes for miracles they can not explain would have no better chance explaining the miracles that I have listed.
I find it somewhat sad the preoccupation with trivial nonsense these mystical folk indulge when there is so much they could be learning about the real world.
Alex
 
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