Scientific Explanation of UFOs

ghost7584 said:
OphioliteA proper scientific explanation of UFOs would be informed by the following:
1. The general inability of untrained observers to provide objective reports on what they sense.
2. The suggestibility of many witnessess, and the gullibility of others.
3. The existence of hoaxes.
4. The existence of experimental military craft.
5. The attraction of boosting ego, or bank balance, or both, by promoting UFO/ET myths.
6. The existence of poorly understood (e.g. ball lightning) or unknown natural phenomena.

If we could remove the dross created by 1-5, we could elucidate the mysteries involved in 6, and finally see if there was a much more interesting signal buried in all the noise.

There are many thousands of UFO sightings throughout the years. If you eliminate everyone that fits 1 through 6 in your post, You will still have hundreds of reliable sightings from reliable witnesses which can't be explained by accepted science now.
Project Blue Book of the air force, deliberately tried to debunk any sighting they could and call it a hoax or something explainable, even if their explanation was ridiculous. And in spite of all of their efforts, 701 reliable ufo sightings still went on the record of blue book as unexplained. 701 genuine ufos in project blue book alone.

Well stated, I like how you use logic and facts to come to an outcome that's based on those facts. Fanatical skeptics, remove facts by using selective logic to come to more "mundane" outcomes. It's important to understand that people like Skin Walker and Oph will never do anything but debunk UFO'S untill they see an alien body. Most people, including our military have allready figured it out. Most of the population believes that Aliens exist, yet they claim you and I are crazy. Remember what I said about selective logic. ;)

For instance, when the Reagan scientific staff comes across a video of a UFO, with ground visual, radar and air visual they go and study the information because of what it DOES contain.

A debunker would take that same video and remove the information from it, claim it means nothing and is useless.

I THANK GOD, that at least our military takes UFO's somewhat seriously. Even if they are hiding some information about them. Ironically, when they do hide or "lie" about UFO'S, what do they do? They debunk them! lol
 
btimsah said:
Fanatical skeptics, remove facts by using selective logic to come to more "mundane" outcomes. people like Skin Walker and Oph will never do anything but debunk UFO'S untill they see an alien body.
The arrogance that passeth all understanding.

Go away.. Get a scientific education. Come back and tell me if Skin Walker and I were right. I quote to you from an earlier post on another thread. It is a lengthy post and quite a long extract. It was a thread you started. You appear to have forgotten what I wrote here - no reason you should have remembered.
"Allow me to diverge to discuss my own view on ET’s for a moment. I am fifty six. For close to fifty of those years I have been fascinated by the possibility of alien life. I have read volume after volume at both ends of the spectrum, from Daniken to Sagan. You will understand, because I suspect you share these emotions with me, that I am desperate for us to get evidence of life out there. Microbes on Mars would be the biggest thing outwith my personal life I have experienced. Intelligent aliens would, to employ a cliché, blow my mind. I want this so badly I can smell it.

But I only want it if it is true. And to determine its truth I have to apply the scientific method. I have to be skeptical. I have to question. I have to accept simple explanations over complex.(You are probably tired of hearing of Occam’s razor.). I have to agree with Carl Sagan, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. (Tired of hearing that one too, I imagine.)

That’s why the skeptics, or at least this skeptic, give you such a hard time. Not because we don’t want to believe, but because we do want to, but beyond that we want the truth, unvarnished and unaffected by how we would write the truth. Because we don’t write it, we only observe and interpret it. That is a grave responsibility and deserves to be treated as such."
That was from the heart. So please retract the opening statement of your quote above. It is wrong.
 
Ophiolite

Why do some people seem to be fundamentally in denial with a mind closed like a steel trap? -- That's not my definition of scientist. I suppose alcoholics anonymous gets a lot of people like that referred to their services.

Why would some people get paid by the Government, or some other special interest group, to deliberately lie about UFOs or to put out fake UFO stories to help cover up the truth? -- Maybe it's like the Bible says, "the love of money is the root of all evil".

"It is the responsibility of scientists never to suppress knowledge, no matter how awkward that knowledge is, no matter how much it may bother those in power. We are not smart enough to decide which pieces of knowledge are permissible and which are not."
--Carl Sagan, in a 1991 commencement address at UCLA
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance!"
--Albert Einstein
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
--Albert Einstein
"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such trifling investments of fact."
--Mark Twain
"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on."
--Winston Churchill
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
--Herbert Spencer
"If you are going to tell people the truth, you had better make them laugh or they will kill you."
--Oscar Wilde
 
ghost7584 said:
Why do some people seem to be fundamentally in denial with a mind closed like a steel trap? -- That's not my definition of scientist.

Nor mine. But you've presented nothing in your rants that conforms to the scientific method, which includes observing testable and falsifiable hypotheses. One need not have a closed mind to dismiss your silliness outright, only a mind that thinks critically and reasons logically.

ghost7584 said:
I suppose alcoholics anonymous gets a lot of people like that referred to their services.

I'm sure the ranks of AA are more suited to those that have little self-control or ability to realize the fallacies of their deed. Perhaps much like yourself. Ironically, AA hinges on principles of belief in the supernatural to substitute one addiction for another.

ghost7584 said:
"It is the responsibility of scientists never to suppress knowledge, no matter how awkward that knowledge is, no matter how much it may bother those in power. We are not smart enough to decide which pieces of knowledge are permissible and which are not."
--Carl Sagan, in a 1991 commencement address at UCLA

"Keeping an open mind is a virtue --but, as the space engineer James Oberg once said, not so open that your brains fall out."
--Carl Sagan, A Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark, 1996, p. 187.

ghost7584 said:
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance!"
--Albert Einstein
"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
--Albert Einstein

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
--Albert Einstein

ghost7584 said:
"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such trifling investments of fact."
--Mark Twain

"The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might."
--Mark Twain

ghost7584 said:
"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on."
--Winston Churchill

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."
--Winston Churchill

Anybody can quote others. Why not truly astound us and give a proper explanation of psychotronic energy?

Answer: he can't. It doesn't exist.
 
Ophiolite to ghost:
As above.

Also,
Why would some people get paid by the Government, or some other special interest group, to deliberately lie about UFOs or to put out fake UFO stories to help cover up the truth?
Could you put me in touch with the relevant goverment department? I could use the money. Perhaps, you could put in a good word for me.


TANSTAAFL
Robert H. Heinlein

It's not relevant, but I like Heinlein and we seem to be in quote mode.
 
Ghost has now adopted his familiar defense shield – words of wisdom.
As much as he loves displaying his foolhardy nature for “quotable from the notables”, little does he realize that these innovators echoed their words thorough the corridors of the scientific, social & political communities where their theories, work & words were critiqued, tested, tried and improved over time.

So Ghost, take your mind sealed in steel off or should we call you a skeptic for hanging on your energy for dear life! :eek:
 
I think they should take ufos out of the pseudoscience section and put it with general science. There is a mountain of irrefutable evidence now, to support the existence of ufos, even after the Ifos, hoaxes and unreliable reports are thrown out.
The number of genuine ufo reports that can't be refuted, debunked or explained has grown so large now, that serious scientific enquiry needs to be applied to the ufo question, and any results obtained should be channeled to research and developement.
 
ghost7584 said:
I think they should take ufos out of the pseudoscience section and put it with general science. There is a mountain of irrefutable evidence now, to support the existence of ufos,

Where?

Tell you what, I challenge you to start a thread and call it the "Irrefutable Evidence for ETI-UFOs" and post what you see as "irrefutable" evidence for discussion and debate.

Maybe you could even go over this "psychotronic energy" crap.
 
ghost7584 said:
I think they should take ufos out of the pseudoscience section and put it with general science. There is a mountain of irrefutable evidence now, to support the existence of ufos, .

If you think that, you need a new term, as the 'Unidentified' part really divorces the phenomena from any scientific study!

Science identifies, categorises, and measures, and then makes models and hypotheses, and tests these to make predictions.

It also depends on what you actually mean my 'UFO'. Some hide behind the term, when they mean Extra Terrestrial Craft. People mis-identify natural or man made events all the time, and lump that in, and it's not helpful.

So what do you think there is a mountain of evidence for? People misconstruing natural phenomena (let's called those Misidentified Aerial Objects (let's leave the 'flying part out, it's misleading)), or Extra Terrestrial Induced Phenomena?
 
ghost7584 said:
to Skin Walker


Science does not advance because of skeptics;
science advances in spite of skeptics.

I doubt it.


But I guess that means you aren't able to take my challenge?
 
skin walker
Science does not advance because of skeptics;
science advances in spite of skeptics. ”
I doubt it.

Of course you doubt it. Doubt is what skeptics do.

There are scientists that come up with something new, and there are academics, that never come up with anything new. Academics just study what the scientists found out. It is in the academic class that you will find most of the skeptics.
All of the great scientific advancements were derided or laughed at, in their day.
They laughed at Pasteur, when he said disease is caused by little animals so small you can't see them. Later someone invented a microscope and saw germs.
They derided Gallileo and threatened to murder him in the inquisition when he said the Earth is not the center of the universe. Kepler and Newton and now space flight shows him to be correct.
There was an article in science news magazine which was about, (if they are not laughing at your theory it is either not correct or so unimportant that it won't change anything.) The correct theories that cause big changes in science are laughed at, for awhile, before being accepted. Then the skeptics that opposed it, after it is accepted, those same skeptics will declare, "we knew it all the time".
 
So you're saying there's not going to be a thread started by you titled, "irrefutable evidence for ETI-UFO" and you aren't going to go into detail about "psychotronic energy?"

But I think you have "skepticism" all wrong. Let me quote Dr. Sagan:
Carl Sagan said:
As I've tried to stress, at the heart of science is an essential balance between two seemingly contradictory attitudes -an openness to new ideas, no matter how bizarre or counterintuitive, and the most ruthlessly skeptical scrutiny of all ideas, old and new. This is how deep truths are winnowed from deep nonsense. The collective enterprise of creative thinking and skeptical thinking, working together, keeps the field on track. Those two seemingly contradictory attitudes are though, in some tension.
-- Sagan, Carl (1996). A Demon Haunted World: Science as a candle in the dark. New York: Random House, p. 304.

Carl Sagan was hardly just an "academic," but an important researcher, professor, scientist and one of the most prolific science writers of his time.

Skepticism embodies the scientific method itself, since hypotheses about observations of phenomena are subject to testing before considered valid or reasonable. Once tested thoroughly, some become "truths," such as the law of gravity or th principles of aerodynamics that explain how airplane wings get their lift. But these truths are provisional, and can be modified or scrapped altogether should new information be observed, tested and held true. This is all skepticism. The testing, the provisional truth... etc.

So, to your fallacious statement that "science does not advance because of skeptics [but] in spite of skeptics," its clear to those truly educated in science that you are wrong.

To your contention that skepticism is relegated to academia and actual "scientists" (who are academics, by the way) are less likely to be skeptical, I say look at the roles of membership for CSICOP or the Skeptics Society. They include the likes of Carl Sagan, Steven J. Gould, Richard Dawkins, Henri Broch, John Paulos, Paul MacCready, Jill Cornell Tarter (of the SETI Institute!), and many, many more: all scientists.

To all those notable scientists whom you mentioned: Pasteur, Gallileo, Kepler, Newton, et al, I'll only point out something that you plainly refuse to acknowledge -they eventually demonstrated the proofs and tests of their hypotheses.

Show use the "psychotronic energy" equations and methodologies, let someone duplicate the results, and I'll be right in your corner, defending you to the last!
 
skinwalker
Show use the "psychotronic energy" equations and methodologies, let someone duplicate the results, and I'll be right in your corner, defending you to the last!

The research and evidence is in the Book, PSYCHIC DISCOVERIES BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN. If you want equations, the Russian astrophysicist Nicolai Kozyrev, is spoken of in the book. They believe that his ideas on variations in the properties of time have something to do with it. Check out his equations.
As I remember it, it went something like this:
Every action or reaction has a cause and an effect. Time gets thicker near the cause end and thinner near the effect. [Or it might be thinner near the cause and thicker near the effect - I don't remember.] For calculations conscerning his theory on this research him. Also he did an experiment involving his ideas which had a direct effect on a gyroscopic compass, which depends only on inertial type forces, (centripetal, centrifugal and gravity). So his experiment would directly effect gravity itself being an inertial type force and also according to general relativity theory, time-space warping is responsible for gravity. So variations in what he calls time thinning and thickening should effect the space-time tensor equations in Einstein's general relativity theory which describes gravity.
So, if you want to compare Kozyrev's theories on time to psychotronic energy, - the comparison is already in the book. Psychotronic energy would be made of some kind of vibratory variations in time thickening and thinning, in the way that Kozyrev meant that.
If you want to research it further, then go ahead.
 
Reply to everyone posting in this thread:
Short summary
STRANGE EFFECTS FROM UFOs, by Donald Keyhoe of NICAP (deceased)
That book describes the effects that UFOs have been observed to cause.

PSYCHIC DISCOVERIES BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN, by Ostrander and Schroeder
That book describes the effects of a newly discovered energy form being researched by real scientists using instrumentation.

Compare the two. The effects caused by UFOs and the effects of this new energy are the same.
Leading to the theory that UFOs are using this energy for propulsion.
Observations of UFOs suggest that they are using another dimension. Leading Ufologists like, J. Allen Hynek, Jaques Vallee, and Raymond Fowler, along with Govt. researchers (as seen in the movie Roswell) agree that UFOs behave as if they are accessing another dimension.
I needed to theorize how This new energy form could also account for this other dimension, so I did. The only other dimension observed to really exist, but not in physical world, is the mental dimension. And this new energy shows itself to be a mental energy or under the direct control of the mind. So, the theory is that this new energy will allow the accessing of this other dimension, which allows ufos to defy the laws of physics, AS THEY ARE OBSERVED TO DO.
So that is the theory all summed up.
Now, a ufo skeptic will deny the evidence before even investigating that.
You have not really taken a closer look, until you read in that book PSYCHIC DISCOVERIES BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN, and see the research presented that shows a newly discovered energy. To dismiss it, out of hand, without even looking at the research, is a failure to accurately judge the evidence or the theory.
[A new energy implies that it is going to be something different than what you were taught in current text books. This is frontier science.]
 
Its easy enough to COMPLETELY dismiss out of hand until such time as you post a proper citation to a proper peer-reviewed journal. If such "new energies" do indeed exist, then I'm sure the discovering scientists are eager to let their peers know the facts.

New discoveries that go straight to popular media are nearly always pseudoscientific attempts to appeal to the general public. Why? Because scientists and researchers who read primary source journals know bullshit when they read it.

Forget the pseudoscience books (read 'fake' science books), show us the primary source citations in peer reviewed journals.

Besides... I read that trash like decades ago. Didn't it come out in the 1980's?
 
skinwalker

Its easy enough to COMPLETELY dismiss out of hand until such time as you post a proper citation to a proper peer-reviewed journal.


The information was made public to the world in the 1970s and it did cause a stir in the scientific community. - you can tell that by all of the websites about kirlian photography research on the web.
Scientists and physicists have been looking at ufo evidence for decades. They behave as if by intelligent control of a superior technology. Our accepted science as we know it has repeatedly failed to explain it adequately. This technology is "out of the box" that our science has put itself in. It needs an "out of the box" explanation and a new technology. There is not going to be any peer reviewed scientific journals that handle frontier technology like this.
If peer reviewed scientific journals don't accept it then it can't exist. - Is that what you think? Well that is incorect.
The UFOs continue to be seen, continue to be filmed and continue to defy our laws of physics as we know them. This shows that there is another technology out there that is different from our own, and you are not going to find the answer in our science as we have it set up today. Parapsychology, a new scientific field, is now moving in on what appears to be the energy of this different technology of UFOs.
 
Let me work backward on that garbage you call a post.

First, "parapsychology" is neither a "science" nor "new." The first looks at the pseudoscience that refers to itself as parapsychology occured in the 19th century, though it was popularized in the 1950's and 1960's (though there were some efforts conducted in the 1920's with folks like J.B. Rhine) with the increases in education numbers of the colleges and universities of the United States. There were suddenly more students following WWII and too few professors and instructors and the standards of education slipped a bit... this plus the rebellion and counter-culture of the period encouraged young people to seek alternatives to the "establishment" or mainstream society.

Things have changed little since then, or so it would seem with those like yourself who seek alternatives to established science in search of the mystical, supernatural and the paranormal.

The primary problem with "psi" researchers is that they fall victim to confirmation biases, seeking only information that supports their claims (or hopes) while discarding or ignoring data that are not supportive. Heavy emphasis is placed by so-called researchers in parapsychology on statistical analysis that rarely stands up to skeptical scrutiny.

In spite of the book you cited, parapsychology has yield no results that concluded anything or gave any evidence of the existance of "psi." Whenever this topic comes up in a forum like this, the psi proponent says something like, "go out and research it! Your just stupid because you don't bother to read what's been written."

My response to such nonsense is that I (as well as others here) have read some of the parapsychology nonsense. Moreover, if there was anything worth reading or remotely convincing, I should think that the psi proponent would be anxious to present it in a forum like this one -paraphrasing the original author's evidence and arguments and giving personal opinions about the same.

Instead, when asked for convincing explantions about specific claims like "psychotronic energy" we get pseudoscientific nonsense or "go read for yourself, I'm just making the claim. If you don't bother to read it, that means I'm right."

Second, Unidentified Flying Objects do continue to be seen. But there has been no conclusive evidence that suggests that they "defy our laws of physics." Indeed, there has been no evidence shown that can conclude that they aren't simply natural or manmade phenomena that simply cannot be fully explained without more data. A UFO nutter once produced a video of a "light" that he shot in a field of what he claimed was a UFO. It was unidentified. But there was nothing to disprove that it couldn't simply have been an insect either luminous or being illuminated. It "flew" like an insect. It passed in front of objects that were only a few meters away, like bushes/trees. It didn't land -no occupants asked directions to the whitehouse... nothing. Just a bug. This is pretty much what the ETI-UFO communities call "evidence."

Third, websites are evidence of nothing but the fact that people want digital soapboxes. Moreover kirlian photography is a fraud if claimed to be evidence of "auras." I'll quote Terrence Hines (2003):
Hines said:
Living things...are moist. When the electricity enters the living object, it produces an area of gas ionization around the photographed object, assuming moisture is present on the object. This moisture is transferred from the subject to the emulsion surface of the photographic film and causes an alternation of the electric charge pattern on the film. If a photograph is taken in a vacuum, where no ionized gas is present, no Kirlian image appears. If the Kirlian image were due to some paranormal fundamental living energy field, it should not disappear in a simple vacuum

What must be remembered is that involved with kirlian photography are electricity, moisture (always must be present), and the metalic chemicals of the film itself. As a photographer, nothing in kirlian photography strikes me as paranormal. Indeed, the different effects that are noted in varied "auras" are due to various moisture changing attributes (stress, activity, temperature, etc.). The alleged "phantom limbs" are either outright frauds or impressions of the object (i.e. leaf) prior to it's removal.

I conducted an experiment with kirlian photography years ago when I was taking classes in film processing. I wanted to create "auras" of leaves like I had seen in Omni magazine but could not create the effect. You can make your own kirlian photos with a metal plate attached to two 6-volt lantern batteries and polaroid film. Put a leaf on top of the film (green leaves work better than dead) and cover with a platic or wooden sheet with some weight behind it. Complete the circuit for a few seconds and you'll have your photo.

There's no mystery or paranormal effects.. only science.

References:

Alcock, James (1981). Parapsychology: Science or Magic? Pergamon Press.

Hines, Terence (2003). Pseudoscience and the Paranormal, 2nd ed. Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books.

Park, Robert L. (2000). Voodoo Science: The Road from Foolishness to Fraud Oxford University Press.
 
Skinwalker

The aura seen in kirlian photography, around humans, has bright flares at all of the accupuncture points of the Chinese. The electric fields applied in the Kirlian process are illuminating an energy that is already there.
There are some people that can see auras, with no applied fields.
Dowsing experiments have for a long time shown the ability to find water. Many people would have died of thirst without it. The Aura energy is involved in the dowsing reaction. You can't refute the evidence. Dowsing for water really works.
There are real paranormal things happening with the human aura.
Kirlian photos of psychics concentrating on healing, showed the aura energy focusing in a bright beam coming from the healer's hand. - they got it on film.
Scientific instrumentation discovered pulsating magnetic and electric fields in the area around a psychic trying to move objects with the mind alone, called psychokinesis. They believe the aura of the person was generating those fields.
It is a new scientific field and it will discover new things. Why deny the evidence that these researches come up with, just because you don't want to believe that?!

Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest. - Simon and Garfunkel from the song, "the boxer".
 
Back
Top