Should gay couples be allowed to adopt children?

[Flores]

Re: Re: Keep lying to yourself Raha

Originally posted by Mystech
Oh come on now, what kind of demented us vs. them mentality is that? Homosexuals have been around just as long as civilization, it was certainly accepted in ancient Greece,

So was having sex with little boys and extremely accepted practice in Greece.

Originally posted by Mystech
which spawned many great artists philosophers, and the first democracy, it was common in Rome as well.

Gayness spawned artists and philosophers. Do you have any proof of that....For example a respectable quote of a scientists or an artists attributing all his success to his male counterpart as did the hetrosexuals with their mention of their wives.

Originally posted by Mystech
Plenty of historical figures were gay. In fact it's kind of ironic that you should be typing that there were no great men were homosexuals on your home computer, as Allan Turing, the man who made the first word processing computer, as well as the man who cracked the German enigma code, and is thought of as the father of modern computers was homosexual.

Again, may you tell us about his fist lady? It must have been a great man behind all of his achievements.

Originally posted by Mystech
Honestly now, you can have your own grim outlook on the world, and a lack of human greatness, but don't drag us all down with you.

I don't need to drag you anywhere. You have officially hit pond bottom. Look up, you might just see the scum levels, it is about 10 feet higher than where you are.

 

[heart]

Originally posted by Flores
As opposed to what?....you teaching YOUR prejudices to my own children....Go along and get a real life please....make sure it's not based on a gay sitcom or a TV reality show.

No, Flores, I wouldn't teach children that being heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual was wrong. That's where you and I differ. Unlike you, I'm not pointing fingers and saying one way is better than the other.

I do have a real life, Flores. That was kind of a silly statement being that you don't know me. For the record though, I do not base my life on a gay sitcom anymore than you base yours on a heterosexual sitcom.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by heart
No, Flores, I wouldn't teach children that being heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual was wrong. That's where you and I differ. Unlike you, I'm not pointing fingers and saying one way is better than the other.

Nice, but few corrections to your rambling. You wouldn't teach YOUR children blah blah blah....Keep your opinionated views regarding our chidren education to your OWN children, and don't you dare comment DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY on my parenting techniques without solicitation and in such an unwelcomed fashion....or you'll be brutally recopricated your advances.

Originally posted by heart
I do have a real life, Flores. That was kind of a silly statement being that you don't know me.

Silliness is the technique I use with the silly. Step up and you might get treated differently.

Originally posted by heart
For the record though, I do not base my life on a gay sitcom anymore than you base yours on a heterosexual sitcom.

Nice, then go do something nice for the children instead of your useless ranting about gay adoption rights. If you so much care about the issue of the well being of our children as you profess. After you have cared for all your OWN children needs first, how about adopting a school before you adopt a human being, the public school systems is in great need of funding and supplies. Do you mind allocating a couple of dollars a month to United Ways. I know I know......you keep throwing those junk mails about the school bucks programs in the trash where your real view about children are.

 

[DeeCee]

Hey Flores
Are you just talking 'bout just gay men or queers in general? You see I work in a big hospital with lots of nurses in it one of the ward managers there was married for 10 years and had two kids by her husband. She's now living with another woman. Her husband (yup just separated not divorced) is living with a girl twenty years his junior. This is a true scenario. I'm sorry it's a little messy but thats life for you. Now a quick question...
Who should the kids live with?
Mummy and her lover or daddy and his nineteen year old nymphette?
Why ask? Well I'd just like to know how consistant your beliefs are. Do you really feel these two kids would be better off in care?
Seems to me that any woman can get pregnant they don't even need a man these days
So another quick question..
Should Lesbians once identified be sterilised?
That would help stop Gay couples having babies so it must be a good thing right?

I eagerly await your response.
Dee Cee

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by DeeCee
Hey Flores
Are you just talking 'bout just gay men or queers in general? You see I work in a big hospital with lots of nurses in it one of the ward managers there was married for 10 years and had two kids by her husband. She's now living with another woman. Her husband (yup just separated not divorced) is living with a girl fifteen years his junior. This is a true scenario. I'm sorry it's a little messy but thats life for you. Now a quick question...
Who should the kids live with?
Mummy and her lover or daddy and his nineteen year old nymphette?
Why ask? Well I'd just like to know how consistant your beliefs are. Do you really feel these two kids would be better off in care?

I eagerly await your response.
Dee Cee

DEE CEE, great way to distract us from the original topic.

May I refer you to the topic of this thead...It states,
Should gay couples be allowed to ADOPT.

You scenario have no adoption associated with it. It is a custody battle. We are talking about biological mother and father. This is CUSTODY issue and not adoption, but of course, you are not studying to be a lawyer, so I excuse your oversight.

If I was a judge, I would appoint the child in the custody of the biological mother regardless of her sexual affair. In the event the biological mother dies, the children should go to the father and not remain with mommies lover, given that they are minors of course and both the father and mother are fit under our current laws to raise the children.

How do you feel about my judgement? Are you still as eager to hear further from me?

PS. Now go sponcer a school, donate to an orphanage, or adopt a girl scout team. They wouldn't care if the check they recieve is from the gay foundation or the Pope.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by DeeCee
Should Lesbians once identified be sterilised?
That would help stop Gay couples having babies so it must be a good thing right?

I eagerly await your response.
Dee Cee

I was so eager to respond that I forgot the rest of your post. Lesbians or gays who have biologically fathered or mothered children should have all custody rights to THIER OWN children.

Please don't confuse custody rights with adoption rights...They're completely different animals.

 

[DeeCee]

Please don't confuse custody rights with adoption rights...They're completely different animals.

I'm a little confused (again) Flores
You believe that gays can be (?good?) parents but not be able to adopt?
Don't the interests of the child come first?
If your fit to be a parent then your fit to be an adoptive parent.
Or am I missing something?
Dee Cee

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by DeeCee
I'm a little confused (again) Flores
You believe that gays can be (?good?) parents but not be able to adopt?
Don't the interests of the child come first?
If your fit to be a parent then your fit to be an adoptive parent.
Or am I missing something?
Dee Cee

Oh, You are missing a lot my dear.

A 60 year old single man can be a good parent, yet he is not allowed to adopt?

A 15 year old girl can be a good parent, yet she is not allowed to adopt?

A 25 year old hetrosexual SINGLE parent could be great parent, yet they are no allowed to adopt?

Adoption is a much different animal from biologically acquiring children.....All the above people that would be denied adoption, have the right to conceive their own children.

I'm sure you are not a biological parent, you are probably a pet owner? Do you know why I know that? Because you are forgetting to measure in the most important equation in loving a child, which have a lot to do with being the biological parent of the child. Children are not objects to be acquired on our whims and discarded as we wish. Yeah, he was such a cute baby, now look at this massive adult that can't stop eating and yells back at us??????

A biological parent loves the child unconditionally. An adoptive parent is a different animal and the rules regarding adoptive parents should never match to those of biological parents.

 

[heart]

Nice, but few corrections to your rambling. You wouldn't teach YOUR children blah blah blah....Keep your opinionated views regarding our chidren education to your OWN children, and don't you dare comment DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY on my parenting techniques without solicitation and in such an unwelcomed fashion....or you'll be brutally recopricated your advances.

Obviously, I stepped on some toes. I didn't mean to upset you in such a manner to warrant a threat. For that matter, I didn't mean to upset you at all, Flores. I was simply stating my opinion and made assumptions I shouldn't have, and for that I apologize.

Nice, then go do something nice for the children instead of your useless ranting about gay adoption rights

I'm sure your children are very near and dear to you, and yes, you have a right to educate them as you choose. Just as you feel strongly about that, I feel strongly about homosexual rights, and in this case adoption. How is it that you feel protective as a right to be a parent, yet when a homosexual feels just as strong be it adoption or any gay right, you throw stones and not think twice? I'm being sincere here, I am not wanting this to become a fight of slinging trash at one another, so please don't think that is my objective. I know I came off rather harsh with my last post, and as I stated, for that I apologize. I guess I was a bit angry at reading some of your previous posts, which I realize is no excuse.

I have donated much time in helping children, Flores- which I think has nothing to do with the subject of whether a homosexual couple has a right to adopt or not. I have supplied valid links for studies on homosexual couples and adoption, and so has SpyMoose, in my opinion feel that they should account for something.

 

[SpyMoose]

Originally posted by Flores
Keep your opinionated views regarding our chidren education to your OWN children, and don't you dare comment DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY on my parenting techniques without solicitation and in such an unwelcomed fashion....or you'll be brutally recopricated your advances.

That’s really some good advice and I wonder if Flores sees the irony in her having said it given her stance on the issue, and her tactics in arguing it.

And I noticed Oki decided to chime in with a “A mother and a father has always worked before, why change it” style ultra conservative argument. I’ll first point out that this method of thinking would prevent anything from being changed ever, and continue by saying that the current method of only allowing heterosexual couples to adopt is not working, as there are still children who are not adopted.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Flores
A biological parent loves the child unconditionally.

I see.

You know that's really powerfull logic. I can SO relate to what you mean. I love my little babies SO much it makes me tear up a litttle thinking about. (stop calling me a panzy) I mean I DO love them unconditionally, beyond question, no doubt. I can tell by the tone of your posts you feel similarly.

There is a problem though. You are correct regarding ME. You are correct regarding YOU. But are you correct regarding the guy who knocks up the chick and laughs it off as he pretends it never happens? Are you correct regarding the millions of americans who are so fucked up that they can't even take care of their own kids so they sluff them off on their parents? While you should be... you aren't.

It's not your failing, it's not a failing at all. It's simply the way things are. Some people don't love their biological children. A lot of people for that matter. I know it seems fundamentally wrong and man I want to bitch slap every person who's ever wronged a child, but that doesn't change the fact that they don't love them. Bitch slap them till the cows are processed into fine meat products, and they still don't love their children.

If someone WILL LOVE THEM, and I mean as you or I would... shouldn't they be allowed to? Does sex have anything to do with it?

The question "should gays be allowed to adopt children?" is ill-conceived to begin with, in that it makes the above association where it is not valid. Being gay doesn't have anything to do with loving a child. Loving a child has everything to do with being human.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by wesmorris
You know that's really powerfull logic. I can SO relate to what you mean. I love my little babies SO much it makes me tear up a litttle thinking about. (stop calling me a panzy) I mean I DO love them unconditionally, beyond question, no doubt. I can tell by the tone of your posts you feel similarly.

Actually, you're not a panzy at all, it's very admirable and I tear up just thinking about the possibility that you tear up, so I'm the real panzy.

Originally posted by wesmorris
There is a problem though. You are correct regarding ME. You are correct regarding YOU. But are you correct regarding the guy who knocks up the chick and laughs it off as he pretends it never happens?

You are right Wesmorris and it all boils down to judgement when we speak of adoption. It's a system of selection and selection requires a criteria. A criteria that is emotionally blind and have the children best at heart. As I said before excellent candidates are being denied adoption just because under the criteria they are not viewed as entity that can provide the BOOK VALUE parenting. Single people are not allowed to adopt. A decent nun and her sister are not allowed to adopt. A hetrosexual established single male is not allowed to adopt, ect....The government have to be very carefull when opening the adoption door or allowing waivers and exemptions. This is a serios issue that once a door is opened, it can't ever be shut.

Originally posted by wesmorris
Are you correct regarding the millions of americans who are so fucked up that they can't even take care of their own kids so they sluff them off on their parents? While you should be... you aren't.

Again we are mixing adoption and biological parenting. I don't deny that some children are not living in the Wesmorris dream home, but that's the nature of the beast. Some kids will have good biological parents and some will have bad one, and some kids who had excellent loving biological parents might turn out to be fucked up in the future, while some of those that didn't have so good for parents might do everything in their will to make sure they never resemble their parents. This is purely life struggles and our courts does interfere when the level of abuse is warranted by the laws. Simply not enrolling your kids in sports or slugging them to parents, or even sticking them infront of the TV all day doesn't warrant for the court interference.

Originally posted by wesmorris
It's not your failing, it's not a failing at all. It's simply the way things are. Some people don't love their biological children.

Exactly, it's the way things are, and do you know why....It's all a matter of property ownership. Biological children are the property of the parents and may only be acquired by the state in the event that the conditions warrant that drastic move. Orphans and kids that are available for adoption are the property of the State. The state is their parent and they get to put the qualifying rules for adopting them. When the state deny single people or gay people adoption, they are practicing their right to choose for the children who can't choose for themselves.

Originally posted by wesmorris
If someone WILL LOVE THEM, and I mean as you or I would... shouldn't they be allowed to? Does sex have anything to do with it?

This is all easily said but impossibly implemented. Do you have a love meter for the state to use in their adoption process. Enthusiasm is rarely a gauge for love. I was so enthusiastic about adopting a cat that is back in the shelter after two month. It's all about a set criteria that is bling of emotions.

Originally posted by wesmorris
The question "should gays be allowed to adopt children?" is ill-conceived to begin with, in that it makes the above association where it is not valid. Being gay doesn't have anything to do with loving a child. Loving a child has everything to do with being human.

But being single have nothing to do with loving a child and single people are denied adoption. It's the criteria and the system not the gay prejudice.

 

[DeeCee]

I'm sure you are not a biological parent,

Well my ex tells me I am

To be serious for a moment (I can do that when I have to). My ex partner and I have a good relationship and both of us do our very best to work together in raising our daughter (She's 10 now BTW) and despite our separation (and my girlfriend) we are, in my opinion, a family. God forbid anything should happen to us but if it did there are only a small number of people who I would wish to entrust my daughters care to. Grandparents obviously and a few longstanding 'family' friends. Well two couples only to be honest. One of those couples is, as you may suspect, gay.
When you've learnt to trust a friend over twenty years or so is their sexuality really that important?
The main reason I keep posting to this inane thread is that through personal experience I know that sexuality has no bearing on a couples ability to raise and care for kids.

I think I would be letting my friends down if I didn't respond to you opinions Flores Oh and I have a cat as well
Dee Cee

 

[Flores]

You have the correct logic Dee Cee, but you are trying to project too far in the future and that's diluting the correctness in your thought process.

Of course you should be raising your daughter, but don't forget that she has a dad too that should be participating to the most extent that you can pull out of him. I doubt he's dead beat, and even if he is, continue the efforts of keeping in touch.

Second, there is nothing wrong with you and your girlfriend raising the girl. I don't even care if you guys have a sexual relationship, I'm not in the business of telling people how to show their affection for each other, regardless of the persons involved or the methods used. But what I'm interested in discussing here is the correct rules and conducts considering dealing with the children. No matter how many years you have known your girlfriend, there are protocols of family relations that must be investigated before placing the child with your girl friend. You husband is first, then your parents, then his parents, then your sister, then his sister, then your brothers, the his brothers, then close friends, then the adoptive agencies. Of course you'll say the all the list above is not fit, but again you are extrapolating your judgement for your child. Who you hate or love doesn't correlate to your child and perhaps your exhusband family loves one thing about you which is your daughter but can't show that love because they don't like you....In any case, try your best to be just in your decisions and take yourself out of the equation, specially if you are planning for your death, which by default means that you are out of the equation.

 

[Mystech]

Originally posted by Flores
I don't even care if you guys have a sexual relationship, I'm not in the business of telling people how to show their affection for each other, regardless of the persons involved or the methods used.

Ha, you sure as hell could have fooled me. Should I bring up the subject of man on man anal sex again?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Mystech
Ha, you sure as hell could have fooled me. Should I bring up the subject of man on man anal sex again?

I'm fasting and have very little in my stomach this morning, please don't turn my stomach up again with the anal talk.

PS. If my dad was gay, I wouldn't like his life style, but I would love him as any daughter would love her dad. I wouldn't live with him because I wouldn't be comfortable living with a strange man. In this case, I would hope that my mom stay single or become Lesbian, I really wouldn't want to live with my mom and yet see another strange men trying to be my daddy. It would take a loooong long time though and much proof to make me even tolerate and accept my dad's partner. If god forbid, my dad dies, the partner can kiss his own ass, because he will never be like a dad or a mom to me.

 

[lixluke]

I'm sure you people love your biological children very much.
Even so, I'd love to see you try to prove that parents can't love their adopted children in the same exact way.
Or that if you were to adopt a baby, you would not be able to have the same exact love for it as you do for your biological children.

BTW: You are pansies.

 

[DeeCee]

You have the correct logic Dee Cee, but you are trying to project too far in the future

The future could commence the next time I try to cross the road Flores. One never knows.

Second, there is nothing wrong with you and your girlfriend raising the girl. I don't even care if you guys have a sexual relationship

I think you have grasped the wrong end of a slippery stick.
I'm Male.
D and C are my initials but I admit that the "girly" nature of my 'handle' has caused confusion before. My apologies.

Cool Skill

BTW: You are pansies.

No I'm not I'm dead hard me
Dee Cee

 

[Mystech]

Originally posted by Flores
please don't turn my stomach up again with the anal talk.

Well thanks for walking right into that one for me, I guess I don't have to add anything more. Just look at the quote from you I posted in my last response, then read this one, and I think you're all set to see what a hypocrite and a bigot you are.

Originally posted by Flores
PS. If my dad was gay, I wouldn't like his life style, but I would love him

You know, I've always found it rather odd when you people refer to homosexuality as a lifestyle, and then try to claim that WE are obsessed with sex. How does sexual orientation constitute a lifestyle? Given it's a fairly big chunk of someone's life, but I should certianly hope there's more to your life than just who you screw.

 

[Bells]

Cool Skill

BTW: You are pansies.

I'd rather be a daisy thank you very much ... LOL


Flores

If my dad was gay, I wouldn't like his life style, but I would love him as any daughter would love her dad.

I'm sure if your dad was gay he'd love you just as much as he does now. I'm sure this point was argued over and over before in this thread...(or so I thought anyway....). If your dad was gay or your mother was a lesbian they'd still be your parents and would still love and care for you as any parents, either biological or adopted, would.