Similarity of being asleep and awake - in each state we have minimal recall re the other

[ToR original]

I read this recently when researching the difference between being asleep and being awake:

" Dreams are totally devoid of proof and validity. Reality, on the contrary, is the basis of validity."

How absurd a statement?

Surely that when dreaming there is proof and validity of all things within the dream and NONE of 'reality / waking state'. And of course vice versa.

I have lucid dreams and water is wet, the wind is draughty, the cake is delicious, sex is amazing ... .

What is interesting to me about dreams versus waking state is this (please share your thoughts as to why this might be):

I have NO memory of my waking life (neither that of my true self, my name, age, where I live, family, ...anything at all) when I am dreaming UNLESS I am lucid dreaming and even then my recall of what life is like when I am awake is not accurate or complete. Why would this be?

As an example, I recently became lucid in a dream and took the opportunity to fly out my bedroom window, over the neighboring garden to 'investigate' my dreamscape. I thought in the dream I was accurately recalling my waking life surroundings. However, when I awoke, I realized the gardens I was seeing in my lucid dream state were nothing at all like how they are in 'reality / waking state', and yet even though I was lucid when dreaming, I was not aware of this discrepancy.

In other words, my 'memory' in my sleep/dream state is not the same memory I have when I am awake.

A question arises from pondering this, are my dream memories consistent at least within the dream. Ie when lucid would my dreamed garden take the same form each time, just as my waking garden does? The interesting thing about this is yes, pretty much but not always.

 

[exchemist]

I read this recently when researching the difference between being asleep and being awake:

" Dreams are totally devoid of proof and validity. Reality, on the contrary, is the basis of validity."

How absurd a statement?

Surely that when dreaming there is proof and validity of all things within the dream and NONE of 'reality / waking state'. And of course vice versa.

I have lucid dreams and water is wet, the wind is draughty, the cake is delicious, sex is amazing ... .

What is interesting to me about dreams versus waking state is this (please share your thoughts as to why this might be):

I have NO memory of my waking life (neither that of my true self, my name, age, where I live, family, ...anything at all) when I am dreaming UNLESS I am lucid dreaming and even then my recall of what life is like when I am awake is not accurate or complete. Why would this be?

As an example, I recently became lucid in a dream and took the opportunity to fly out my bedroom window, over the neighboring garden to 'investigate' my dreamscape. I thought in the dream I was accurately recalling my waking life surroundings. However, when I awoke, I realized the gardens I was seeing in my lucid dream state were nothing at all like how they are in 'reality / waking state', and yet even though I was lucid when dreaming, I was not aware of this discrepancy.

In other words, my 'memory' in my sleep/dream state is not the same memory I have when I am awake.

A question arises from pondering this, are my dream memories consistent at least within the dream. Ie when lucid would my dreamed garden take the same form each time, just as my waking garden does? The interesting thing about this is yes, pretty much but not always.

My dreams are nonsense even while I am dreaming.

 

[geordief]

My dreams are nonsense even while I am dreaming.

Complete nonsense?I can interpret my own dreams in sections.


Sometimes (maybe I am just being obvious )I can see when a character is myself.

I saw "A Town called Alice" last night and I think the crucifixion scene was the "inspiration" for some kind of hanging episode in last night's dream (a mirror,if I recall to any extent)

I don't draw any lessons from things I dream but I do recognize my struggle to live reflected in them.

I can see why others would try to make something of them in a therapeutic setting but I understand that not too much objective success has been achieved along those lines

Amusingly, once or twice of late I have heard myself speak complete nonsense to my partner whilst half asleep and she has responded(or at least taken notice) and I have had to explain to her that I had just been speaking gibberish


.

 

[DaveC426913]

Surely that when dreaming there is proof and validity of all things within the dream...

I have lucid dreams and water is wet, the wind is draughty, the cake is delicious, sex is amazing ... .

You're kind of cherry-picking there. Sure, there are some things that are self-validating within the dream. Because they're all subjectively validated.

Try some things that require objective validation (which is what reality is all about).

In your next lucid ream:

• Try reading a book. Then close it and read it back out loud. I'll bet it's undefined.
• Look at your phone and read off a friend's number. I'll bet you can't recite the number.
• Open a smoke detector. If you've never looked inside one before, I'll bet you can't make out what's inside it.

 

[C C]

[...] What is interesting to me about dreams versus waking state is this (please share your thoughts as to why this might be):

I have NO memory of my waking life (neither that of my true self, my name, age, where I live, family, ...anything at all) when I am dreaming UNLESS I am lucid dreaming [...] Why would this be?

[...] my 'memory' in my sleep/dream state is not the same memory I have when I am awake...

Research-wise, there's little to no scientific interest in the matter. Only occasional speculation grazing it (below). As pretty much expected from anything dependent upon anecdotal claims and personal reports of what is inaccessible to direct public scrutiny.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dream-catcher/201312/dreams-and-memory

EXCERPTS: Most dreams seem unconnected to one another, but a few seem to carry on themes from one dream to another.

[...] For that to be possible, it seems that we would need to entertain the possibility that dreams either draw on a specialized memory system only available to the dreaming brain, or that dreams can access selected memory systems that are typically unavailable to the waking brain.

[...] If dreams have sole access to a dream-specialized memory system, then it should not be surprising that dreams can cumulate content over time that is not related merely to daytime waking consciousness. Dream memories would build up over time—just like memories in systems that are accessed via waking consciousness.

[...] t would help if the field of dream studies had a theory about the logically possible roles dreams might play in memory processing.

[...] Whatever the case may be, the science of dreams needs to explore this question of whether dreams draw upon a specialized dream-specific memory system when constructing scenarios.​

_

 

[DaveC426913]

I have NO memory of my waking life (neither that of my true self, my name, age, where I live, family, ...anything at all) when I am dreaming UNLESS I am lucid dreaming and even then my recall of what life is like when I am awake is not accurate or complete. Why would this be?

As an example, I recently became lucid in a dream and took the opportunity to fly out my bedroom window, over the neighboring garden to 'investigate' my dreamscape. I thought in the dream I was accurately recalling my waking life surroundings. However, when I awoke, I realized the gardens I was seeing in my lucid dream state were nothing at all like how they are in 'reality / waking state', and yet even though I was lucid when dreaming, I was not aware of this discrepancy.

I disagree with your assessment.

I'd argue that 95% of what occurs in your dream is pulled from real life, you just take it for granted (after, you can speak and walk and recognize a garden). Sure, some parts of your dream differ - because that's the point of a dream - to go where reality can't.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

In your next lucid ream:Try reading a book. Then close it and read it back out loud. I'll bet it's undefined.

One thang i liked to do in a lucid dream was to read somptin... then look away... then look back an see if it said the same thang... an when it did i woud laff an laff... because i was doin somptin that wasnt suposed to be posible

 

[DaveC426913]

One thang i liked to do in a lucid dream was to read somptin... then look away... then look back an see if it said the same thang... an when it did i woud laff an laff... because i was doin somptin that wasnt suposed to be posible

Which raises the inevitable question: in your dreams, does spell check work? Cuz that would definitely be a sign you're dreaming!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Which raises the inevitable question: in your dreams, does spell check work? Cuz that would definitely be a sign you're dreaming!

Good queston but i ant sure sinse it all looks good to me.!!!

In one dream i read a sign... an when i looked back at it agan it still said STOP but the background of the sign was green insted of red like it was the first time i read it.!!!

Anuther time i was lookin at these beautiful vendin machines an one of 'em was a COKE machine... an when i looked back at it it still had COKE written on it but the machine looked diferent.!!!

Ive attemped to read sentences wit mixed results -- its like tryin to read wit readin glasses that are to weak... i can pick out 2 or 3 words in a row ever now an then but not enuff to realy understand whats bein talked about.!!!

My favorits are levittion/flyin lucid dreams.!!!

Ive analyzed my lucid dreams an i conclude that they indicate high iq.!!!

 

[geordief]

Good queston but i ant sure sinse it all looks good to me.!!!

In one dream i read a sign... an when i looked back at it agan it still said STOP but the background of the sign was green insted of red like it was the first time i read it.!!!

Anuther time i was lookin at these beautiful vendin machines an one of 'em was a COKE machine... an when i looked back at it it still had COKE written on it but the machine looked diferent.!!!

Ive attemped to read sentences wit mixed results -- its like tryin to read wit readin glasses that are to weak... i can pick out 2 or 3 words in a row ever now an then but not enuff to realy understand whats bein talked about.!!!

My favorits are levittion/flyin lucid dreams.!!!

Ive analyzed my lucid dreams an i conclude that they indicate high iq.!!!

Not dreams but an old friend (who was studying psychology) used to gather us in his room and hypnotised us individually . We could choose where we wanted to go in our imagination.

As I recall we were probably stoned as well.

Didn't work with me as I presumably lack powers of imagination (not all people are suggestable and hypnotisable,it is said)

 

[gmilam]

In my totally unqualified opinion, dreams are the mind's way of taking out the garbage.

Sometimes I realize I am dreaming, usually because something is totally illogical, and the realization wakes me up.

 

[C C]

Not dreams but an old friend (who was studying psychology) used to gather us in his room and hypnotised us individually . We could choose where we wanted to go in our imagination.

As I recall we were probably stoned as well.

Didn't work with me as I presumably lack powers of imagination (not all people are suggestable and hypnotisable,it is said)

Though much more severe than "lacking imagination" in the conventional sense, it reminds one of aphantasia. I reflexively expected that people with aphantasia wouldn't be able to dream, and yet it's claimed that some or many do.

https://aphantasia.com/discussion-question/do-you-dream/

_

 

[geordief]

Though much more severe than "lacking imagination" in the conventional sense, it reminds one of aphantasia. I reflexively expected that people with aphantasia wouldn't be able to dream, and yet it's claimed that some or many do.

https://aphantasia.com/discussion-question/do-you-dream/

_

Nothing like that severe with me(suspect I am fairly average)

How did they work out that aphantasia was even a "thing"?

 

[DaveC426913]

I find it hard to imagine* someone unable to generate imagery in their head.
*see what I did there?

My wide has mentioned something like this, though I don't know if it's the same. She insists that - if someone were to tell her to "imagine you are sitting on a warm sunny beach", say, as part of a relaxation regimen - she is unable to generate an image in her head - at least not without being given a bunch of more specific details.

 

[C C]

[...] How did they work out that aphantasia was even a "thing"?

Recent classification or coining, though gradual discovery first began with Francis Galton back in 1880.

Timeline
https://aphantasia.com/history-of-aphantasia/

Curious that author Michelle Sagara is able to write fiction without any mental imagery. But then blind-since-birth authors do it, too. (Granted that there truly are any that write fiction rather than just autobiographical and opinionated, informational texts.)

_

 

[RainbowSingularity]

In other words, my 'memory' in my sleep/dream state is not the same memory I have when I am awake.

tricky

i dont know any other languages
but do people with multiple languages memories different sentences & conversations in different languages in different parts of their brain ?

A question arises from pondering this, are my dream memories consistent at least within the dream.

yes & no
this is super tricky stuff
because ur reality is consistent
but your memory might be recalling a general feeling of events rather than factual atributes of a specific nature
so while your memory moves from a measured specific to then suddenly an emotional influence

its all a bit alphabet soupish to some extent
your consciousness makes sense of it to maintain logic so it doesn't get mixed with reality & you end up walking off a cliff(while your brain is creating an open field ahead of you[hallucinations]) or something illogical

Ie when lucid would my dreamed garden take the same form each time, just as my waking garden does?

that depends what your dream garden is built from

A question arises from pondering this, are my dream memories consistent at least within the dream.

generally no
but i do not wish to discuss this stuff its too confusing for me

keep in mind i am discussing this objectively so do not take it personally

The interesting thing about this is yes, pretty much but not always.

but ...
is consistency the measure of memory
or is the consciousness adapting memory to be consistent ?
if you see my point
so how easy/hard is it to tell the difference ?
im not sure i can

 

[Michael 345]

I WAS going to start a thread called Memories and Dreams. Came across this thread which seems to be a long the same lines so here I am

Who / what (process) decides which memories to keep? Who or which process because I don't have any recollection of deciding

How do you decide at age 2½ / 3 years old? My first memory comes from that time period

Have no lead up to or follow up after

I am being held by Uncle Ernie on the corner of Mina Road where I lived at Number 38 and Old Kent Road a major roadway in London

Was watching two trams approach each other and remarked they were going to crash

Was assured they would not. Continued to watch and of course they didn't being on separate tracks

So again who (I'm considering my brain as being a seperate entity) or what process is involved with "this nugget of a moment is worth keeping"?

As said no recall any lead up or follow on. I can infer it was a balmy evening and with no TV (shock horror) Mum and Ernie decided to go for a walk (the corner is about 200 metres away from house)

Next about dreams. I have interesting dreams. Most I can link to recent events although said recent events do not have any actual linkage

Recently while my dreams are still interesting have no discernible linkage to any events

Latest dream - I'm in a house (?) and there is a black dog with a silver chain link collar and leash. Dog goes out the door followed by me

Can't see dog but not concerned. Next I am about to cross a very large 5 road intersection

Having made it across I am getting close to a small newsagent shop close to beach

Inside shop I obtain a newspaper. A tall pale gentleman ask the shopkeeper is he can use the toilet. Keeper says no and points to a public toilet about 50 metres away

Tall pale gentleman leaves shop followed by me. I hear him remark "Bloody religious people"

Me "I take it you are religious?"

Reply "Yes"

Me "Ya always wanting what they feel they are entitled to "

So I have no recollection of any aspects of the dream (recent) I can l link to

Two small periods of my life, total length combined about 5 minutes.

Why memory and what was dream composed from?

Not my idea but think I posted somewhere in this forum at night when asleep the brain perform the equivalent of a computer disc defragmentation. The fragments it comes across it seems to stich together forming the dream

Does brain just come across fragments at random or does brain have a system of looking?

So many questions

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Who / what (process) decides which memories to keep?

im a little tired & have not finished reading past this sentence
but want to comment

i have read some research that suggests that all things are recorded
so memory is not about information containment as much as information recall.
i have studied this fringe science some years back
it is quite interesting but lots of not nice people want to mess with it
fooling people to think feelings are memories so they can brain wash them is common in extremists far right far left cults etc

soo i am not very keen to get too technical because i dont want to give away any tools & knowledge to those who would exploit and abuse such knowledge & ability

its such an all encompassing subject
it effects every single aspect of your life & money

additionally
i have studied UFO abduction & out of body remote viewing close encounters fringe science
for many years
mind control
you name it

i know for a fact you can implant memories into people
so what someone thinks is a memory is implanted and 100% false

but that stuff is all off the books with secret govt research programs and a lot of cloak and dagger stuff
its dangerous to get involved in because its soo dangerous to your sanity
& imagine if advertising agencies got control of such technology
capitalism has no morals

i have a wealth of knowledge on the subject inside my head
but probably will never discuss it unless in real life person to person with someone i trust as being morally balanced and not evil

it is possible to convince someone they have a real memory of something which is com0pletely false
then you can get them to give you all their money or sexually exploit them

THAT is the environment the conversation is in
so i am quite hesitant

Next about dreams. I have interesting dreams. Most I can link to recent events although said recent events do not have any actual linkage

but what if i could convince you that they are linked
would that make a difference ?
linking so you link to others ...
so a link becomes not a link but a 100% factual validation of an event being defined
by you
to be real
because it has a link
so because you have assigned links as being some type of qualifier ...

you see my point
depending on the depth of the layers of the onion etc

critical thinking models etc
at what depth does your critical thinking start & stop

Why memory and what was dream composed from?

depends on how you dream
some people dream about different things
1 value may be the same linking value
others dream about feelings/emotions/money/material objects
sexual feelings
etc etc
morals ethics
sounds like your dream is fairly ordinary but has a lot of deeper meaning for you
so it attaches to your deeper subconscious because it has hidden values which you dont mentally discuss in your conscious mind soo much
or the links are to the morals & you dream them to re invigorate you own moral beliefs and test them

is the tall pale man a man in black ?(mib) or more soo the Quaker weirdo psycho religious rural person
sounds like that character is a mix of different things

asking to use a toilet versus being expected to receive something

the right to ask
the right to say yes or no
social compliance
religious morals
secular morals
ethics/principals greed narcissism sharing equality
entitlement (greed & arrogance & classicism)

 

[Michael 345]

i have read some research that suggests that all things are recorded
so memory is not about information containment as much as information recall.

3am in the morning here but quickly checking this article the article would seem to disagree

https://www.science.org/content/article/how-brain-deletes-old-memories

Cheers

 

[billvon]

I have NO memory of my waking life (neither that of my true self, my name, age, where I live, family, ...anything at all) when I am dreaming

I have no problem remembering my waking life while I am dreaming. Locations in the dream are either the same as, or similar to, locations I have been in. The people I meet are often people I have met in real life. The things that happen to me are similar to things that occur in my waking life.