Sobering thoughts on the Pakistani convert case

[GeoffP]

That is opposition of you from your family, so why did you say you have cases of death in Islamic countries? This is misinformation.

Peace.

Op - heeeere we go: technicalities in the face of the threat of death. Never mind that Diamond herself would have kofi put to death for apostacy; no, no, never you mind about that.

Diamond's latest complaint seems about as relevant to me as the difference between the flight speed of African and European swallows.

Geoff

 

[mustafhakofi]

That is opposition of you from your family, so why did you say you have cases of death in Islamic countries? This is misinformation.

Peace.

oh come on man, no misinformation you know as well as I the rules of the game, you said it yourself regarding the canadian pakistani at the begining of this thread, my father and brothers are unfortunately only obeying the laws of islam. and yes I still love my family, no matter how controlled they are by this evil regime. but it's not just my family who will try to kill me as you well know. if I was close to you, I've no doubt you would try to kill me.

pbui

 

[DiamondHearts]

oh come on man, no misinformation you know as well as I the rules of the game, you said it yourself regarding the canadian pakistani at the begining of this thread, my father and brothers are unfortunately only obeying the laws of islam. and yes I still love my family, no matter how controlled they are by this evil regime. but it's not just my family who will try to kill me as you well know. if I was close to you, I've no doubt you would try to kill me.

pbui

So basically, you presented a point that you are under sentence of death in Islamic country/countries. You could not prove it, and then your brought up you are under sentence of death from your family in England. I did not contest this point, however I didn't ask about your family or England, I asked about what Islamic country you are under sentence of death from.

Why don't you just say you were wrong, and you aren't under sentence of death from an Islamic country? If you wish to go on with your point, then name the country you are under sentence of death from.

You wrongly stated you think I would want to kill you if I was close to you. Are you paranoid or something? If you want to ruin your afterlife and your life, I personally don't care. Do what you want.

Peace.

 

[GeoffP]

But - again - these are lies. You wouldn't let her "do as she wants"; you'd report her to the authorities at the very least; you've said you'd do so before, even to your own son. So you're lying now when you say you wouldn't harm her; you most certainly would try to get her arrested for apostacy.

No point backpedalling now, Diamond: you've already admitted your perspective. Why don't you just admit that you were wrong, and that your perspective is similarly wrong?

Geoff

 

[Alejandro]

Originally Posted by DiamonHearts
I would bring him to the Islamic court and if he did not agree with rejecting his new faith, I would allow the Islamic court to dealwith him and perform his execution in a swift and unpainful manner. I would do the same if my son because a Zionist and supported genocide of native Palestinians.

you would do that to your child?

That's disgusting, I hope you are sterile.

you said it. i dont have children yet but.....oh man thats sad.

 

[mustafhakofi]

So basically, you presented a point that you are under sentence of death in Islamic country/countries. You could not prove it,

no I stated a fact, I am certainly not going to give you my real name and address, now am I.

and then your brought up you are under sentence of death from your family in England. I did not contest this point, however I didn't ask about your family or England,

I never actually said that, I quote it here

xerxes and godless:
unless of course if you live in england, my brothers can only shun me and my father and mother do tolerate me, but I am under sentence of death anywhere else in the islamic world.
so I keep a discrete distance from my family and ex-friends and the mosque.
one day hopefully religion, will be gone from the human mind set. but it will be a long time coming.

and from another thread I said this

when my family found out then my brothers all disowned me, my mother and father have come around since, but only on the telephone, which is alright by me, because i'm under a sentence of death for my common sense.
so I keep out of the way.

but I have no doubt if my brothers could get away with killing me to save face they would, hence why they dont know where i am.
I keep a low profile, in everyday life, and on these boards I have total anonymity.

I asked about what Islamic country you are under sentence of death from.

turkey, I can never return to see my grand parents or cousins, well they dont want to see me.
I thank the british govenment for my life, if I was'nt classed as a british national, I'd be dead now.
you know as well as I, if I were to state openly in any, islamic country my beliefs, I would be arrest and tried and beheaded.
do you really want me to list all the islamic nations, is there really any point.

You wrongly stated you think I would want to kill you if I was close to you.

did I, I think not.
if as you say, you could watch you son being tried and beheaded, for the very same thing, you would have no problems in killing a stranger.

Are you paranoid or something?

just stating facts, I'm not the one, with a god fixation.

If you want to ruin your afterlife and your life, I personally don't care.

there you go with that god fixation, "afterlife!" this is why you morons find it so easy to kill.

 

[Xerxes]

mustafhakofi,

Just curious, are you male or female? They seem to really hate it when a female leaves.

 

[mustafhakofi]

female, and yes they do.

 

[rsy]

The Holy Prophet (s) did order the execution of the people who plotted to kill him, his followers and he also ordered the execution of those leaders who broke peace treaties.

The Prophet (s) did not command rape, this is completely wrong and deceptive belief. Infact, the Prophet (s) commanded execution for those who engaged in fornication, adultery, and rape.

In every aspect Islam is the most just religion.

Peace.

"Peace." --that's ironic

 

[DiamondHearts]

So you're lying now when you say you wouldn't harm her; you most certainly would try to get her arrested for apostacy.

So now not only do you need to twist my words but are now able to read my mind?

turkey, I can never return to see my grand parents or cousins, well they dont want to see me.

Can you show me where in the Turkish law it allows the killing of an apostate from Islam? I would like a passage form consititution if possible. I don't believe such a thing, Turkey has an extremely secular law system.

Are we still referring to your family or your country?

if as you say, you could watch you son being tried and beheaded, for the very same thing, you would have no problems in killing a stranger.just stating facts, I'm not the one, with a god fixation. there you go with that god fixation, "afterlife!" this is why you morons find it so easy to kill.

Completely wrong. If someone committed apostasy in an Islamic State and make this public, the punishment is prescribed. In a Non-Muslim country, it is unlawful to carry this punishement.

You don't need to be paranoid and think all Muslims are trying to kill you, I don't care what you do with your life.

Also, people who believe in God are not more likely to kill.

If you spread such hate about Islam, how do you expect your Muslim family and Muslim friends to ever forgive you?

It's one thing to reject a thing, but its another to spread hatred and curse the beliefs your family holds sincere.

Also, you have alot of emotion, but I doubt you have very much knowledge of Islam from your posts.

mustafhakofi,

Just curious, are you male or female? They seem to really hate it when a female leaves.

We do? Since when do you know so much about Muslims, Mr. Zionist?

Peace.

 

[mustafhakofi]

Can you show me where in the Turkish law it allows the killing of an apostate from Islam? I would like a passage form consititution if possible. I don't believe such a thing, Turkey has an extremely secular law system.

http://www.anayasa.gen.tr/english.htm,
to search throught the turkish consitution would take days if not weeks and then to find judical law, and do another search, they have not complete forsaken sharia law.
since 1994, turkey has been returning to it's old sharia ways, several citys have had religious candidates winning the elections, Ankara being one of them, they are returning to sharia law via the back door on the surface turkey seem a lovely place, but down below.
"Mr. Akyol outlined a series of steps for Muslims to take to reduce Islamic militance but he left out the most important step which is that Muslims should acknowledge that the attacks on infidels that they have committed in the name of Islam are wrong. U.S. ambassador James Gerald wrote that "The principles of Justice are more important than oil or the railroads" and that "the Turks should not be accepted into the society of decent nations until they show sincere repentance for their crimes."Another step Mustapha Akyol listed was to replace Shariah with a new interpretation of Islam. He wrote, "A great deal of shariah laws — like killing of apostates, .. have simply no basis in the Qur'an." While reform of Islam is indeed essential, the killing of apostates has a basis in the Koran. The command to "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. " is from the Koran ( 9:5). So is the command: "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (8:12)". This command is undoubtedly treated as religious grounds by those who commit the many recent beheadings in Iraq.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16059
"Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too fight in God's way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them wheresoever ye and them, and take from them neither patron nor help" (IV. 90, 91). "O ye who believe! Whoso is turned away from his religion-God will bring (instead) a people whom He loves and who love Him, lowly to. believers, lofty to unbelievers, strenuous in the way of God, fearing not the blame of him who blames" (V.59).

It will be sufficient to quote what the standard commentary of Baidhawi says on the first passage: "Whosoever turns back from his belief (irtada), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/chap2.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/index.htm

 

[GeoffP]

So now not only do you need to twist my words but are now able to read my mind?

You've already admitted you would turn your own son over to the authorities if he converted, and nary a word about whether or not he was an "open" apostate, so don't bother trying to pretend you wouldn't do the same to a stranger. You're a liar and a sicko.

Can you show me where in the Turkish law it allows the killing of an apostate from Islam? I would like a passage form consititution if possible. I don't believe such a thing, Turkey has an extremely secular law system.

Are we still referring to your family or your country?

Kofi got your number on that one.

Completely wrong. If someone committed apostasy in an Islamic State and make this public, the punishment is prescribed. In a Non-Muslim country, it is unlawful to carry this punishement.

Whatever the country issues might be, the italics indicate a lie on your part. You said you would kill your own son and said nothing about just how 'public' his apostacy had to be - as if, frankly, that mattered somehow.

You don't need to be paranoid and think all Muslims are trying to kill you, I don't care what you do with your life.

You said that public apostates should be put to death. I don't think all muslims are trying to kill me - although there is no doubt that many would if they could - but who are you trying to kid here?

Also, people who believe in some Gods are more likely to kill.

If you spread such hate about Islam, how do you expect your Muslim family and Muslim friends to ever forgive you?

So let's recap: she's afraid her family will kill her for apostacy, you yourself would kill this girl if she were in a muslim country, but you think somehow she's the one spreading hate.

You know, I want to believe that islam can be tolerant, but you're not helping this hope at all. In fact, if the rest of Pakistan is like you, there really is no common ground at all.

It's one thing to reject a thing, but its another to spread hatred and curse the beliefs your family holds sincere.

It's one thing to be angry at someone who rejects a thing, but it's another to want to kill them for it.

Geoff

 

[DiamondHearts]

http://www.anayasa.gen.tr/english.htm,
to search throught the turkish consitution would take days if not weeks and then to find judical law, and do another search, they have not complete forsaken sharia law.
since 1994, turkey has been returning to it's old sharia ways, several citys have had religious candidates winning the elections, Ankara being one of them, they are returning to sharia law via the back door on the surface turkey seem a lovely place, but down below.
"Mr. Akyol outlined a series of steps for Muslims to take to reduce Islamic militance but he left out the most important step which is that Muslims should acknowledge that the attacks on infidels that they have committed in the name of Islam are wrong. U.S. ambassador James Gerald wrote that "The principles of Justice are more important than oil or the railroads" and that "the Turks should not be accepted into the society of decent nations until they show sincere repentance for their crimes."Another step Mustapha Akyol listed was to replace Shariah with a new interpretation of Islam. He wrote, "A great deal of shariah laws — like killing of apostates, .. have simply no basis in the Qur'an." While reform of Islam is indeed essential, the killing of apostates has a basis in the Koran. The command to "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. " is from the Koran ( 9:5). So is the command: "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (8:12)". This command is undoubtedly treated as religious grounds by those who commit the many recent beheadings in Iraq.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16059
"Why are ye two parties about the hypocrites, when God hath overturned them for what they earned? Do ye wish to guide those whom God hath led astray? Whoso God hath led astray ye shall not surely find for him a path. They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too fight in God's way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them wheresoever ye and them, and take from them neither patron nor help" (IV. 90, 91). "O ye who believe! Whoso is turned away from his religion-God will bring (instead) a people whom He loves and who love Him, lowly to. believers, lofty to unbelievers, strenuous in the way of God, fearing not the blame of him who blames" (V.59).

It will be sufficient to quote what the standard commentary of Baidhawi says on the first passage: "Whosoever turns back from his belief (irtada), openly or secretly, take him and kill him wheresoever ye find him, like any other infidel.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/chap2.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/index.htm

Yet your post quoted from quran e kareem (i mean copy and pasted from website), looking through quran would take days.

I asked for proof in the turkish constitution that this law exists and you would have a death sentence in turkey form government, you inability to answer shows your dishonesty. Such a law does not exist.

 

[audible]

did you actually read any of ther links, diamond the first indicates that turkey is still under sharia law, though it has toned it down on certain aspects, but not regarding apostacy.
an the second quote the sharia laws regarding apostacy, and use quotes from the qu'ran, to clarify that fact.
so shall we just say that you have a closed mind to the facts and be done with it.

and here something from wikipedia.
Most Islamic scholars agree that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is beheading. However, according to hadith, apostates sometimes were tortured to death. The caliph Umar II had apostates tied to a post and a lance thrust into their hearts. Mamluk sultan Baybars II also practiced torture of apostates. A case is recorded when a woman who had apostatised was led through the streets of Cairo on an ass, then strangled in a boat in the middle of the Nile and thrown into the river. In modern times, followers of the Ahmadiyya sect in Afghanistan were stoned to death. The execution for aposatasy was abolished in most Muslim lands in the 19th century either through European pressure or through the direct European rule; however, cases of imprisonment and deportation of apostates still occurred. Nevertheless, even nowadays renegades are not sure of their lives, as their Muslim relatives frequently try to kill them.[8] ideally, the one performing the execution of an apostate must be an imam.[8] At the same time, all schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that any Muslim can kill an apostate without punishment.

In January, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy

 

[DiamondHearts]

did you actually read any of ther links, diamond the first indicates that turkey is still under sharia law, though it has toned it down on certain aspects, but not regarding apostacy.
an the second quote the sharia laws regarding apostacy, and use quotes from the qu'ran, to clarify that fact.
so shall we just say that you have a closed mind to the facts and be done with it.

and here something from wikipedia.
Most Islamic scholars agree that the appropriate punishment for apostasy is beheading. However, according to hadith, apostates sometimes were tortured to death. The caliph Umar II had apostates tied to a post and a lance thrust into their hearts. Mamluk sultan Baybars II also practiced torture of apostates. A case is recorded when a woman who had apostatised was led through the streets of Cairo on an ass, then strangled in a boat in the middle of the Nile and thrown into the river. In modern times, followers of the Ahmadiyya sect in Afghanistan were stoned to death. The execution for aposatasy was abolished in most Muslim lands in the 19th century either through European pressure or through the direct European rule; however, cases of imprisonment and deportation of apostates still occurred. Nevertheless, even nowadays renegades are not sure of their lives, as their Muslim relatives frequently try to kill them.[8] ideally, the one performing the execution of an apostate must be an imam.[8] At the same time, all schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that any Muslim can kill an apostate without punishment.

In January, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment_for_apostasy

I didnt ask for incidents or someone's opinion, I asked for legal proof for his accusation.

 

[Sock puppet path]

I didnt ask for incidents or someone's opinion, I asked for legal proof for his accusation.

You are in favour of killing apostates in islamic countries. Is that the law in Pakistan or just something people do?

 

[GeoffP]

I didnt ask for incidents or someone's opinion, I asked for legal proof for his accusation.

That's hilarious -

'I didn't ask for evidence! Don't post evidence of what you say!'

Geoff

 

[usp8riot]

So Diamond, suppose I'm an atheist, as we all are at birth since we can't conceive of God, and say anyone that converts from atheism should be killed. Does that mean you should be shot? If so, with that kind of attitude, watch out if you come to a country with atheists.

 

[GeoffP]

She'll never answer a question like that: it would only mean she'd have to admit that her view is wrong and unfair.

Geoff

 

[usp8riot]

Oh, and by the way Diamond, I used to believe Islam could also be the word of God but i am kind of doubting it now after reading your posts Diamond. It sounds like a cruel and unjust God. If I saw this Allah of yours that allows pedophilia, I'd punch him in the face for letting me down by not being a REAL God and for creating people and killing them for testing who is the true God, the REAL God would have no problem with this since He is the TRUE God. I would also kick his face in if he ever touched my daughter. Got it? Keep him away from me or anyone with my temper or sensitivity to injustice. This God should be done away with as easily as he does away with others. That is, if this God is not being slandered or misunderstand. If so, my apologies to him, but to you for making others see this god as cruel and unjust and drawing them away from him, you will have to tell it to THE judge when you see him.

My view is more than likely the latter. From what I've read of the Quran, it can be misconstrued by ignorant, extremist Muslims just as the Bible can by ignorant, extremist Christians. When the Quran says to "fight your enemies", would any man in his right mind say that is the word of God? Unless it's mistranslated or misunderstood to mean to fight sin in your mind, as in, a mental battle to keep yourself from being tempted by your enemies, which is what I think. If I am viewing Islam wrongly and it really is a violent religion, then please tell me before I tell anyone else I believe it can be the word of God. And if I really am viewing your religion wrongly, as a violent religion, then tell your god to shove it. I know, my God doesn't believe in violence or insulting anyone but just hearing of you justify cruel acts makes me want to be the same way to you so maybe you will see that someone being cruel or unmerciful to you really sucks to say the least. You get what you give. You want to give violence or condone it, so shall you recieve it also.