Sociopaths

[KilljoyKlown]

ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) is the new "hot issue" in the corporate world these days, and most companies (like mine) are now starting (if ever so slowly) detailed training on how to spot and manage those with forms of ASPD. Corporate settings attract sociopaths/psychopaths like moths to a light. Huge financial rewards, herds of mindless sheeple. Do the math.

You make it sound like we have sociopaths and psychopaths coming out of the woodwork. Do you have any information about how the break down per 1000 population is? Also can you tell how many of those sick people are some combination of both psyco-sociopath illnesses?

For HR and corporate purposes, sociopaths are those who don't adapt well. Psychopaths are those who are just as emotionally numb, but who excel at camouflaging who they really are. Whereas the sociopath struggles to fit in, the psychopath will become the skilled manipulator.

I'm not sure I can agree with your definitions here. I for sure knew a sociopath that was very good at camouflaging who they were and also were very skilled manipulators. But I just don't know if they had a bit of psychopath mixed in or not.

In either case, those who do the hiring (HR and managers) are trained (and not very well) at spotting and passing over both during interviews. Many make it in (especially the psychopath), and that is where HR has to be very careful in making sure they spot "scheming" and "plotting". It's common to have backbiting in the office world, so I would imagine that it's important to see who's taking it to the next level.

Nothing prevents sociopaths and psychopaths from getting a good education, which is going to make spotting them in a single interview very hard, especially when they start to know what to expect in the interviews.

I work with a lady who I'm certain is a sociopath. She's slightly obvious, and it's sad. She's a compulsive liar who not only cannot remember what she's lied about, but when cornered with evidence that she lied, continues lying in the face of all available evidence. She actively "schemes" behind people's back (none of whom trust her and all of whom discuss her plots with eachother). She has zero ability to accurately sense other's emotions (a very precise indicator of psychopathy/sociopathy; often times confusing genuine laughter for cutting snickers; a warm smile for a condescending look; a pleasant remark for a snide comment). She's forever inquiring who is talking about her behind her back. She cannot, even under the best conditions, accept constructive criticism, no matter how padded with pleasant sounding words. Lastly, she cannot contemplate ownership for her actions. If a mistake is made, it's someone else's fault; if a problem about her is brought to her attention, she blames the accuser for being a tattle-tale.
It's an interesting subject. What's more, when you delve into the various defined facets of ASPD, you see how many people in our society fit into those descriptions.

Over time even the very good liars will start to become obvious to most of those around them. However, if they've had their job for awhile and are doing what is expected of them, they won't be easy for a company to get rid of. Makes you wonder when a company is willing to risk a lawsuit by firing someone, what it's really all about?


~String[/QUOTE]

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

You still haven't said whether or not you were diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder by a professional.

It's beginning to sound like you just read the criteria off the internet and think it applies to you.

No and never. My keyboard player is a psychologist and he likes me fine the way I am . We make good artists , So he really don't want Me to change for his personal reasons of making wild crazy music. Dude drop it . I don't know what it says on the internet. I am anti social and not from the internet telling Me so. People have told Me all my life is why I know. When I say "" No Body loves Me they say It is you not them . You are anti social. I try not to be , believe Me , and a lot of people think I have an A personality , yet people that know Me better like my spouse know different for they see my reclusiveness up close and personal . My spouse is similar in nature from her child molestation so we get along fine having each other. I don't know where to put my hands in normal situations so it makes Me uncomfortable sometimes . I don't do anything to hurt anybody so I am not threatening . If you follow my suggestions you have to except the suggestions in the first place. Basic Hypnosis. Mesmerizing is more my style anyway. You know how musicians are don't you? We live on the edge of reality. It helps us to come up with the new song .

 

[ULTRA]

I love you man and you matter. I got a joke for you. When someone sees a homeless man and his dog they say " Look at that poor dog "
I will spend the rest of my life changing that perception . Voodoo spells and hypnotic suggestions have a way of altering perceptions and if I and others like Me can reach enough minds and infect them , Success can be had . All a matter of time

Thanx sweetie. We've got our work cut out having to constantly prove we are human beings with some kinda worth. Not so easy when we can't even convince ourselves! It helps to laugh at it sometimes, I mean bloody hell, when I think of all the stupid things I've done you gotta laugh at it to deal with it.

 

[ULTRA]

By the way folks, its worth remembering that rarely do we fit into a textbook definition of the illness. We are all here via different triggers as individual as individuals are. If you really want to learn about us, go and volunteer some time (at least 6 months) on a psyche ward. It'll do you so much more good than reading a fixed, unadaptable book. Myself and other sociopaths are resourceful and intelligent. And we don't much like being put in boxes.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

This is me making an attempt at being social. Something I have been working on for the last couple of years and I must say the way people put down makes it more difficult. I am a troll I except that from all you book worms . It took me a while to figure out what you all where talking about, but I think I get it now. You know how us worthless trolls have a hard time understanding things.
Hide in my basement bathroom yeah Man . I like it there

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Thanx sweetie. We've got our work cut out having to constantly prove we are human beings with some kinda worth. Not so easy when we can't even convince ourselves! It helps to laugh at it sometimes, I mean bloody hell, when I think of all the stupid things I've done you gotta laugh at it to deal with it.

I have something for you they don't teach in the text books . Look in the mirror every day and say to your self " I am Great"
For 40 days and see how you start feeling then . You don't have to believe it when you start, but if you do it you will start believing it . Try it out like a new pair of pants . It did wonders for my self esteem. Before that I would look at my self and say you are worthless and ugly and that was how I felt , but when I learned the new way wa la it worked for me . As a child I would go around saying no body loves Me I have no friends I want to die. Up tell the point in my late teenage years when I learned the self trickery and then I saw my self as beautiful and worthy. Anyone else who didn't think so , well it was there personal problem and not mine

 

[ULTRA]

I look in the mirror and I see my uncle staring back at me. I don't like mirrors, the family resemblance is too great. Anyway, I'm far from nice looking with all my scars, broken nose etc. But I don't have to like me, to be able to try and bail out like I did it helps if I feel nothing. My drug therapist reckons I'm headed for another crash and I should see my GP, but I think I have it in hand at the moment. I'm not active, I'm just being pestered by unwanted thoughts. It'll go away if I just wait a bit.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

You see miss Lucy knows something . Contrary to social norms that is what it is all about, but even social norms can run a muck. There by making a group of sociopaths move in unison . The majority of the offenders are just herd mentality acting for the lead sociopath. It is basic corporate structure . It makes the world go round. It is our basic structure of economics. When we like the crazy bastard we follow the crazy bastard because we know he/she will invent the next wheel . If we don't like him/her we ostracize and that is when one of the leadership type becomes withdrawn, Plots and Plans revenge, or seeks out self Satisfying objectives.
As far as the shadow effect. Most people I believe live modern life in the shadow effect. You might cry , you might be sad and I am amazed at how may people are just flat out depressed . The depression has a lot to do with the shadow effect . It comes from the numbing effect of modern Life. All dressed and no place to go syndrome. Living lives in bubbles of delusions. A good sociopath will pop those bubbles and do you a favor so you can see life in the fast lane . The blink of an eye is a human life in the scheme of things, so brace your selves for a ride on the crazy machine.

I was wondering if you were going to make a contribution to this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting that you think the way our society is structured promotes the development of sociopaths. If so, I suspect you might be right. However I don't really like the idea of sociopaths in high places. One of the most famous being Caligula. Being near that guy was a real hazard to your health. While I hate to think of that ever happening to this country (USA), I can visualize how it could happen. A very intelligent person born at the right time to the right family with the right education and training (Being groomed). Well, probably not to likely, but the world is a big place and not all places have the same ability to screen out the sociopaths before they become paranoid leaders.

About the shadow effect you are talking about. That sounds a lot like people that are bored and are having trouble alleviating it. Then along comes the exciting sociopath and life’s not boring anymore. A few years go by and you realize boring was not so bad. Boring beats pain every time.

 

[chimpkin]

I look in the mirror and I see my uncle staring back at me.

I used to look in the mirror on bad days and see...Dad. Uck.

I love you man and you matter. I got a joke for you. When someone sees a homeless man and his dog they say " Look at that poor dog "

Very hard to overcome that early programming, isn't it?

And those that say that don't know dogs then... dog gets fed human food out of dumpsters and gets to spend all day with his person.
Happy dog!

For HR and corporate purposes, sociopaths are those who don't adapt well. Psychopaths are those who are just as emotionally numb, but who excel at camouflaging who they really are. Whereas the sociopath struggles to fit in, the psychopath will become the skilled manipulator.

Hmm, I thought it was the other way around....but haven't taken abnormal psych yet. Thought the psychopaths where the violent ones.

I'm getting that you think the way our society is structured promotes the development of sociopaths. If so, I suspect you might be right. However I don't really like the idea of sociopaths in high places

Thirded, agreed, and agreed. But I don't like a lot of unpleasant realities.

 

[WillNever]

No and never. My keyboard player is a psychologist and he likes me fine the way I am . We make good artists , So he really don't want Me to change for his personal reasons of making wild crazy music. Dude drop it . I don't know what it says on the internet. I am anti social and not from the internet telling Me so. People have told Me all my life is why I know. When I say "" No Body loves Me they say It is you not them . You are anti social. I try not to be , believe Me , and a lot of people think I have an A personality , yet people that know Me better like my spouse know different for they see my reclusiveness up close and personal . My spouse is similar in nature from her child molestation so we get along fine having each other. I don't know where to put my hands in normal situations so it makes Me uncomfortable sometimes . I don't do anything to hurt anybody so I am not threatening . If you follow my suggestions you have to except the suggestions in the first place. Basic Hypnosis. Mesmerizing is more my style anyway. You know how musicians are don't you? We live on the edge of reality. It helps us to come up with the new song .

What "people" have told you is largely irrelevant. What has an educated professional such a board-certified psychiatrist told you, in regards to that? Stop dodging the question and answer it. Has a doctor ever diagnosed you with antisocial personality disorder, or did you self-diagnose?

Don't dip and dodge. Just answer the question. Do it.

 

[WillNever]

By the way folks, its worth remembering that rarely do we fit into a textbook definition of the illness. We are all here via different triggers as individual as individuals are. If you really want to learn about us, go and volunteer some time (at least 6 months) on a psyche ward. It'll do you so much more good than reading a fixed, unadaptable book. Myself and other sociopaths are resourceful and intelligent. And we don't much like being put in boxes.

I spent a lot of my clinical rotation in a large state mental hospital, which means I probably have more direct exposure to the mentally ill and antisocial personality types than pretty much everybody in this thread. Antisocials in my experience are possessed of average or lesser intelligence than usually belongs to people. It's an adult version of childhood conduct disorder. Antisocial types try to be manipulative, but nowhere near to the point of borderline personality types. And they are also far more easily re-manipulated and herded by nursing staff than borderlines.

Borderlines are the ones you have to watch out for, not antisocials.

 

[ULTRA]

Hi Will. I don't just mean those that have hissy-fits and tantrums and just generally don't like to comply with anything. I've met enough of them..Low IQ High demands..

I agree borderliners can be very sharp, very manipulative and very tricky. I often found them cutting etc. for attention, though depressives like me do that too - only we generally mean it. I'm glad you've had experience of the system first hand. It teaches all the stuff not in the books. As an inmate, my survival depended on reading the others in my ward, and though I'm not trained, I can spot every type at a glance practically. I've been conned, of course, but some are amazingly good at getting what they want.

 

[chimpkin]

Borderlines are the ones you have to watch out for, not antisocials.

Having had(past tense)a lot of borderline traits, if not the full menu(and I've never been good at manipulation) and known borderline people (my friend who offed herself)...I would like to note they manipulate out of inner distress, fear, and neediness.

Not so much that they can't empathize, but it's that their own internal distress is so loud that it tunes out the needs of others.

Lower the distress, teach emotional regulation skills, and the empathy re-emerges. It's not an actual empathy deficit, IMO.
You may or may not have heard of DBT(Dialectical-Behavioral-Therapy) but it's the premier treatment for borderlines...and turning out to be super-useful for other people.
I'm getting much usefulness from it.

No, the unbright can't manipulate too well, I will give you that.

 

[ULTRA]

In defense of borderliners, I've found them to be witty and fun. They out-manipulate us sociopaths - good on them...you generally have to to get what you need. The art of manipulation works well in working environments whether it's the shop-steward or a negotiator or salesman. What people don't like is manipulation in personal relationships, otherwise it can be a survival trait.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

you are preaching to the choir.

get clear as you are making excuses. you don't think that human traffickers even today are sociopaths, then that is YOU. that is clearly sociopathic when one chooses to engage in such abject disregard for humanity and other's suffering or even causing it. we are not talking about brainwashing or the brainwashing of segments of society. using nazi germany as an example doesn't fly and yes, they were sociopaths.

you seem to think that those examples i used of real people predating on other with no regard to their suffering are not sociopaths unless they are diagnosed as such, that's your belief however way you want to define it.

sociopaths can empathize with other's feelings if they choose to but i pointed out the major difference between a sociopath and non-sociopath is that the former does not have a general sense of ethics or they don't exercise it.

your points are impractical. the issue is not classifying people for it's own sake but how and why as well as how to deal with those who engage in sociopathic behavior. a person who can empathize with their family and friends but will still go and rape someone is still a sociopath! the man who starved his stepdaughter is still a sociopath! the man who beat the little boy day after day is a sociopath even if he has friends and family that he empathizes with!

they don't all fit a narrow profile nor do all sociopaths live in ways where they dont empathize at all with others or with absolutely no one. otherwise, they would have zero support or connections. most sociopaths do have people they can connect with and even empathize with just like anyone else. hitler empathized with germans, hitler liked and cared for dogs but he murdered and experiemented on jews! the japanese head of unit 731 was a sociopath, even if he cared for his own family which he did. you keep on with this belief that sociopaths cannot empathize at all or with no one and that is not true. it's not necessarily that they can't empathize, it's their sense of humanity is unethical because their sense of humanity is not as developed. that is what causes them to act in unethical ways more than others. again, it's just that sociopaths will willingly commit barbaric acts or use people with no regard if they can get away with it. why? because it's narcissism, meaning they can empathize with those they identify with but they have no regard for those who they don't identify with even knowing they can feel and hurt. that's why the overriding attribute of sociopaths is narcissism.

Again I'd like to say I like most of your thinking on this subject, but then I can identify with the reasons for the way you feel (a little maybe). I think defining sociopaths need not be to problematic. First I don't care what kind of pain you want to talk about be it physical, mental or financial and a sociopath doesn't either, also I have no doubt that they know when they are causing pain and I'm very sure that they planned most of it. Yes most of the pain a sociopath causes to others is premeditated and then carried out.

If they have a halfway decent memory then almost everything that isn't small talk is a lie, and they know the best lies are the ones built out of mostly true things. That way if they slip a little, it's easier for them to recover. Also, if they know you want to believe them, they have a big advantage and they don't have any qualms about using it.

One thing I can say is after you have known this person for awhile, you become familiar with their patterns and know what's coming next to a point where you can call them on it. Talk about a narcissistic sociopath showing their true colors. Just let them know you aren't their mark anymore.

 

[Mickmeister]

I spent a lot of my clinical rotation in a large state mental hospital, which means I probably have more direct exposure to the mentally ill and antisocial personality types than pretty much everybody in this thread. Antisocials in my experience are possessed of average or lesser intelligence than usually belongs to people. It's an adult version of childhood conduct disorder. Antisocial types try to be manipulative, but nowhere near to the point of borderline personality types. And they are also far more easily re-manipulated and herded by nursing staff than borderlines.

Borderlines are the ones you have to watch out for, not antisocials.

Since you have experience with these disorders, why do professionals shy away from psychopaths? There are few that will take a psychopath as a patient for treatment. I had a neuropsychological exam two years ago. They took me out to lunch and in discussing their fields, the topic of psychopaths came up and everyone on the team said they despised working with psychopaths. They said they freaked them out with their coldness. That really sparked my interest in the topic. Aren't there varying degrees of psychopathy? Also, I have read that IQ makes a huge difference in the outcome of a psychopath. The higher the IQ, the more successful and less physically violent the psychopath is.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Since you have experience with these disorders, why do professionals shy away from psychopaths? There are few that will take a psychopath as a patient for treatment. I had a neuropsychological exam two years ago. They took me out to lunch and in discussing their fields, the topic of psychopaths came up and everyone on the team said they despised working with psychopaths. They said they freaked them out with their coldness. That really sparked my interest in the topic. Aren't there varying degrees of psychopathy? Also, I have read that IQ makes a huge difference in the outcome of a psychopath. The higher the IQ, the more successful and less physically violent the psychopath is.

Because at the moment they are untreatable.

 

[chimpkin]

Aren't there varying degrees of psychopathy?

Of course. All of us are unique snowflakes. Crazy people are just unique crazy snowflakes. Psychopaths are all individuals on a spectrum of lack of caring. No standard empathy deficit, of course.

The higher the IQ, the more successful and less physically violent the psychopath is.

The higher the IQ, the more successful anybody is...well, usually. Statistically speaking. On the whole:scratchin:

(Scary thought of the day: if I had been beaten unconscious as a child, I could have been even less successful. Meaning probably homeless or dead. Joy.)

But yeah, the smarter ones are better at manipulation and impulse control...and coming up with good lies, of course.

I'm given to understand that Psychopathic/Sociopathic types bail out of therapy as soon as it gets unpleasant.
Besides that, how do you instill caring about others in someone who's essentially a grown-up toddler on some basic level? No proven therapeutic techniques. Besides that, socipaths won't be honest, won't talk, won't trust, and won't receive any benefit in many cases from the therapists' work.
Most therapists get into the field to help people, so you can see why this would be frustrating, no?

This is my thinking:

Some toddlers are naturally empathetic, but others have to be taught by parents, "No, it hurts when you pull mommy's hair," or "You aren't allowed to hit Tommy because you wouldn't like it if he hit you," or "Don't pick the cat up by the neck, that hurts her!"

So I suspect some kids weren't born with empathy...and then they don't get it instilled from outside sources at a young age. But that's one of those "just a guess" things on my part.

I was one of those kids who empathized with everyone and everything and cried easily.
(Of course, when you get slapped more for crying after they slap you the first time, you learn not to cry quickly. Or your face and head hurts longer.)

Abusive environments add a different wrinkle-you have someone actively harming the child, and some children are going to accept the model of the abuser's behavior. Not even necessarily on a conscious level, but...basically, having grown up with an abusive person, some (I) find that they (I) have to work very hard at not behaving like their abuser.
Or they just as unconsciously turn into their abuser...

Okay, I'm really deviating topic here, and spouting, sorry.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

What "people" have told you is largely irrelevant. What has an educated professional such a board-certified psychiatrist told you, in regards to that? Stop dodging the question and answer it. Has a doctor ever diagnosed you with antisocial personality disorder, or did you self-diagnose?

Don't dip and dodge. Just answer the question. Do it.

I thought I made it clear . I guess not NO and NEVER , No yesterday and not tomorrow. Why would I do that? That would throw a big wrench in me bringing systems to there knees. O.K. I am not antisocial . you are right . I am just selfish. A nothing with no friends , except I have a friend now. Yea for Me. His name is Ultra . He is my friend . You want to be friends Will ? I won't take anything from you except maybe I might barrow your personality a little . That would be about it. I would give you some of mine though so that would not be to selfish would it ? Dodge ball ! In the hall Ah that was a big no Joe on your question just in case you didn't understand at the beginning. I hope this answers your question Will , if not let Me know and I will try to make it more clear . Dude Chill ! just love me and all Will be fine. That is all I want .

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I was wondering if you were going to make a contribution to this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting that you think the way our society is structured promotes the development of sociopaths. If so, I suspect you might be right. However I don't really like the idea of sociopaths in high places. One of the most famous being Caligula. Being near that guy was a real hazard to your health. While I hate to think of that ever happening to this country (USA), I can visualize how it could happen. A very intelligent person born at the right time to the right family with the right education and training (Being groomed). Well, probably not to likely, but the world is a big place and not all places have the same ability to screen out the sociopaths before they become paranoid leaders.

About the shadow effect you are talking about. That sounds a lot like people that are bored and are having trouble alleviating it. Then along comes the exciting sociopath and life’s not boring anymore. A few years go by and you realize boring was not so bad. Boring beats pain every time.

Ah President Nixon. The dude was whacked . Yeah I do think the nature of society turns and churns em out and for good reason . A reflection of society it self . Consider how we except things instead of changing things and if things start to change the opposition stomps it out and the majority go right along with the past because that is what they know. We all know there is a problem with the system , hell look at the economy " No brainer"
That Caligula was one partying dude . Reminds Me of how " Charley Sheen" is acting now except Charley don't have a big sword to cut people up with.
7 grams of coke in a night . I can't believe that.