Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Hellblade8]

Sweet. Depends if SW could adapt..... wait what am I saying, adapt lmfao.

All things adapt to a certain extent...although for SW, there is a very limited extent.

ditl.org defiant's only type X phaser. the TypeXII's on Soveriegn are 100,000 TeraWatts.

Hmm, looking over his calcs, I see he used the TM...this may require me to re-think his calculations. As for Daystrom Institute, it uses the TM as well, which isn't canon and isn't useable for debates.

Also, the Defiant uses pulse phasers, which my explain the difference.

And the fragility of the SSD's ability to operate without a bridge. All if not most of the UFP's ships have battle bridges deep inside thier hull or could be controled through engineering if they have too.

Well, both groups take heavy blows form losing their bridges.

Hmmmm. Seems weaker than I thought but still strong. And by the time it was hit by 3000 shots the battle would be over. SW lasers seem rather inaccurate.

It may be stronger and probably is; it took another hit or so; I'm just using what I could recall from the episode, so this is reather a lower limit thing. It could very well be double that.

Covenant government before the brutes started screwing everything up they would win but now with covenant split it's hard to say. Although on the ground a pair of hunters could rip apart SW troops and armor alike. UNSC would probably use rebelion tactics. Hit and run with large numbers of ships on shipyards or other key locations then slipspace away. In slipspace noone can attack you without slipspace generators. Although in all out war SW would overwelm them as UNSC posses no shielding and use titanium for armor.

The Covenant might be able to win; it's hard to say. Their enemies use technology that is outdated by even SW standards (although not by much...).

Numbers games doesn't mean instant victory. Wraith vs Atlantis. Gou'ald vs Earth.

No, it doesn't, but it does tend to compensate. Take the SSD. According to the sources I can find; it has 2,000 heavy turbolaser turrets. Each one is likely no more than two megatons in the yield of each turret (one megaton per beam). However, because of the sheer massive numbers employed, a broadside orbital bombardment would result in an output of 4,000 megatons...or four gigatons. Compare that to the Enterprise D; whose typical output would be, even going with a 100,000 TWs, is about 24 megatons for her two forward phaser arrays. Max yield for photon torpedoes would be set to a hundred megaton and even with the Burst x5 forward photon torpedo bay, that still gives us 548 megatons.

Of course, weapons such as Tri-cobalt devices or even Quantum torpedoes would easily show them to be able to do a great deal of damage.

 

[Hellblade8]

Great news everyone. Upon doing some research on the yield of the 90 isoton bomb used in A Time to Stand, I was able to discern that each isoton stands for 13.33333333 megatons. Going through the Isoton quotes, I started making rough calculations. I was forced to conclude that Scorpion's 200 isotons per torpedo as being unlikely, given the indications of the 54 and 80 isoton suggestions. Instead, I suspect that it was the total amount (someone else I know has suggested this before, but I now agree), making the isoton yield of each Type VI 6.25 megatons.

From this, I was able to extrapolate the yields of all their types:

Class One
Megaton Yield: 13.88888889
Isoton Yield: 1.041666667

Class Two
Megaton Yield: 27.77777778
Isoton Yield: 2.083333333

Class Three
Megaton Yield: 41.66666666
Isoton Yield: 3.125

Class Four
Megaton Yield: 55.55555555
Isoton Yield: 4.166666667

Class Five
Megaton Yield: 69.44444444
Isoton Yield: 5.208333333

Class Six
Megaton Yield: 83.33333333
Isoton Yield: 6.25

Class Seven
Megaton Yield: 97.22222222
Isoton Yield: 7.291666667

Class Eight
Megaton Yield: 111.1111111
Isoton Yield: 8.333333333

Class Nine
Megaton Yield: 125
Isoton Yield: 9.375

Class Ten
Megaton Yield: 138.8888889
Isoton Yields: 10.41666667

On another note, it seems that the Dominion had some really powerful bombs; as they were using 10 isoton bombs in The Ship to scare the crew.

Dominion Torpedoes
Megaton Yield: 133.3333333
Isoton Yield: 10

Other bombs of use:

Obsession Sub-space Bomb
Megaton Yield: 73,725,000,000
Teracochranes: 200,000,000

Tri-Cobalt Device
Megaton Yield: 7,372,500
Teracochranes: 20,000

Ultritium Bomb
Megaton Yield: 1,200
Gigaton Yield: 1.2
Isoton Yield: 90

Gravametric Torpedo
Megaton Yield: 719.9999998
Isoton: 54

Upgraded Gravametric Torpedo
Megaton Yield: 1,066.666666
Gigaton Yield: 1.066666666
Isoton Yield: 80

 

[Kittamaru]

You realize the sheer amount of deflector dish's on that fleet would actually cuase the asteroid to be pushed away...right?

Also, Star Trek has nebula monsters...giant worms are cute in comparison.

Actually, star trek has beings who are made of entire galaxies...

I forget the episode, but there was one with what were dubbed "Noh Angels". They were an extension of a being who's "brain" was made of the electrical conductivity of diamond-cored planets over a space of several solar systems...

 

[Lord Vasago]

I still wonder why everone always claiming ST shield superieur.
I saw an episode ones (don't know the name) where a assasin could attach his ship on the belly of the enterprise and board the ship without anyone knowing he was there.

Boba Fett's Slave one may not be much to look at but it is known that he has a scrambler to avoid detection by every known Sw sensors.
Making him able to come and go as he pleases.

f the assasin in ST penetrate the Enterprises Defences without detection surely there will be a several bountyhunters from Sw that can do the same.

 

[Lord Vasago]

The biggest avantage of SW is numbers.
More beings, more weapons, more ships.
Mass production. oh yeah St has replicators but u can't replicate a warp enginge leaving all those replicated ships as nice decoration and awesome target practice for SW lmao

meanwile a few worlddavestators spawn out thousands and thousands of fighters ready for combat.

 

[antaran_1979]

Hellblade, that isoton/megaton ratio may be the final clue we needed, but van you elaborate on the process of getting it? the episode and possibly some qoutes or screenshots? i'd like to double check that myself if possible.

on the number issue, i agree SWs biggest advantage is its large pool of ships and manpower, but overall not it's ability to regenerate loses. during the time skywalkerjedi (or what ever his name was) posts, we've heard some funky claims that the Empire can build ISDs at a rate of many ships per day. but even if it was so, me must not forget that this is not starcraf. you don't build your ships and send them to battle to die in a silly war of attrition. these ships need to be maned. you need officers and crew members. you need fueld and power generators. and allso you need to maintain them. even if the Empire could rebuild thier entire fleet in 1s, theu=y would still need years or decades to train new crews. the only faction that does not have these restrictions was the Dominion in DS9. their Jem'Hadar reached maturity in 1 week, and their ship production was quite impresive.

good joke on the space worm btw :roflmao:

 

[antaran_1979]

and people, please reconcider using watts when describing your weapons. or at least specify wether it refers to the energy consumption of the weapon or the projected energy BY the weapon. in both cases this value is not indicative of the weapon's destructive power. here are my examples:

1.imagine an "ubertronium" superdonductive composite that acts like a basic emmiter component of a weapon. let us say we kick in som 10 jules pers second energy trough it (10 watts). now, this fictional compund has the property to generate heavy space time distortions at some point away from the aparature. if we take 100 such devices and focus that distortion in one point. we get an artificial black hole, for the price of 1000watts or 1 kW. that black hole depending on it's size could do a bunch of FAR more destructive thingies then say 1 kW visible spectrum laser. the two weapons are of the same power, but they are not of the same distructivness.

2.in this second example imagine another material called "hellonearthonium". this baby, when exposed to certain exotical forms of radiation, emites a stream of "hellonearton" particles. we asume for the purpose of this expeeriment that the total energy carried by the particles emited is 6.241506363e+19 eV or 10J (same as before). if the beam lasts 1s that is a beam with a total power of 10W. but when these particles strike normal matter they destabilise the atomic nucleus (similar to what real life neutrons do) causen a chain reaction of nuclear fission that turns the entire target object into a fission bomb. thus a 10w "hellonearthon" beam does far more damage then a 10W laser.

or 10W anything for that fact. a bulet of 0.01kg moving at 400m/s has a total of 800J of energy that is 80 times more then the afore mentioned weapons. does this value really represent it's destructive power? not even when compared to other bulets. a hollow point bullet of the same parameters would cause severe damage to tissues of an un-armored target, but fail miserably against modern body-armour. an AP round would pass through a human torso allmost harmlessly (unless in penetrates a major arthery or something) but is the only way to penetrate kevlar vests.

so i propose that when we descuss weapon destructive power, we mesure the actual destruction caused to the type of target involved. any comments?

 

[USS Athens]

I still wonder why everone always claiming ST shield superieur.
I saw an episode ones (don't know the name) where a assasin could attach his ship on the belly of the enterprise and board the ship without anyone knowing he was there.

Boba Fett's Slave one may not be much to look at but it is known that he has a scrambler to avoid detection by every known Sw sensors.
Making him able to come and go as he pleases.

f the assasin in ST penetrate the Enterprises Defences without detection surely there will be a several bountyhunters from Sw that can do the same.

I don't know, that one bounty hunter knew what he was doing and was familiar with ST sensors and shields.

It's nice to have you back Vasago. You're the only SW fan here that we cannot start a flamewar with. Or at least I can't.

 

[Renrue]

I still wonder why everone always claiming ST shield superieur.
I saw an episode ones (don't know the name) where a assasin could attach his ship on the belly of the enterprise and board the ship without anyone knowing he was there.

Boba Fett's Slave one may not be much to look at but it is known that he has a scrambler to avoid detection by every known Sw sensors.
Making him able to come and go as he pleases.

f the assasin in ST penetrate the Enterprises Defences without detection surely there will be a several bountyhunters from Sw that can do the same.

Didn't the Millennium Falcon also sneak up onto the backside of a Star Destroyer bridge? I'm sure this has been brought up before, so anyone enlighten me about that scene?

 

[NaCl]

Star Trek duh

 

[Hellblade8]

Hellblade, that isoton/megaton ratio may be the final clue we needed, but van you elaborate on the process of getting it? the episode and possibly some qoutes or screenshots? i'd like to double check that myself if possible.

Certainly.

The Ship is my source, with Obrien using a 90 isoton enriched ultritium bomb hidden in a canister, claiming it would destroy everything within an 800 kilometer radius.




I presume that the landing bay at the facility is enough to accomidate a Jem'Hadar attack ship's length, which is 70.02 meters, so I went with 80 meters; five meters on each side should be plenty for this.

In fact, we see a Jem'Hadar ship actually going for the landing pad:



The problem here is that I don't know if it's actually going into the hanger area, or just going for the landing pad; in which it would stay. Thus, I went with the former for more conservative yields.

Next, I determined that size, the first was using a ruler. I mesured the hanger area to be about half an inch. The asteroid itself lenghted in four and a half inches, giving us a length of 720 meters.

The second method was using pixels. There I discovered that the hanger was 77 pixels wide. Next I determined that the length was 529 pixels, which came to 549.61 meters.

Sadly, calculating the height and thickness of the asteroid came as a problem, since the thing was given to us at a constant angle and we couldn't see the asteroid in her whole. The general body was amazingly enough, deformed, with three thick legs that went off screen, so I was unable to get a full measure of the thing, but the thickness and the height appear to be close to the width in some areas (and short in others).

So, we have two calculations. Naturally, I chose the smaller one. According to Wong's own calculator (which is by calculating the diameter, that the 90 isoton bomb vaporized a nickle-iron based asteroid to come to a 1.2 gigaton bomb, or 1,200 megatons.

Divide that by 90 and we get 13.33333333 megatons per isoton.

Of course, using the larger number, we get 2.8 gigatons or 31.11111111 megatons per isoton.

Now as per its vaporization:

 

[Hellblade8]

 

[Hellblade8]

As you can see, we see nothing more than a few shards left, which may not even be from the asteroid itself (remember that the bug just covered about 800 kilometers here), so this may be space junk that was picked up for the ride. Furthermore, even though the bug had gotten to the outer portion of the blast radius, the explosion still took out her shields; which is resistant two at least 2-3 photon torpedoes, which suggests that explosion still had some punch behind it. Which matches up with the Chief's claim that everything in 800 kilometers would be destroyed.

In essence, we clearly saw that the vast majority, if not all of the asteroid was vaporized (again, space junk).

their Jem'Hadar reached maturity in 1 week, and their ship production was quite impresive.

Actually they reach maturity in three days.

 

[TW Scott]

Didn't the Millennium Falcon also sneak up onto the backside of a Star Destroyer bridge? I'm sure this has been brought up before, so anyone enlighten me about that scene?

Easy, when going forward through a asteroid belt do you turn on all your shields equally, or do you shunt all shield power to the front?

Also Han was an Imperial officer and probably had great insight as to where blindspots in the sensor grid. So if the aft shield was down he could Easily find a place to hide.

 

[Lord Vasago]

I don't know, that one bounty hunter knew what he was doing and was familiar with ST sensors and shields.

It's nice to have you back Vasago. You're the only SW fan here that we cannot start a flamewar with. Or at least I can't.

thx mate it's good to be back too lmao.

well i'm fond of every scifi so i like ST too espacialy voyager and deepstar 6 lmao

But SW and Firefly as my favorites

 

[Lord Vasago]

thinking about it Sw shields aren't so bad as Trekkie claim. I'm not into all this numbers but i do know that the millenium Falcon came out of hyperdrive straight in the leftovers of Alderan. The Shields seem to prevent destuction didn't they. And i don't think they had the power allready directed to the front shields.

Btw Shields are created to defend against known weapons. I bet St aswell as SW have weapons the other side doesn't know about so i it not fair to say that they both will have weapons the shields aren't able to stop.

It's like the gungan shields in Episode one. it holds back all firepower of the droids but they just walk through. So with a midevil catapult u could do some serious damage. Use a crossbow u fire you're arrow straight through the shield.

How well are St shields against a simple arrow?

 

[Lord Vasago]

and people, please reconcider using watts when describing your weapons. or at least specify wether it refers to the energy consumption of the weapon or the projected energy BY the weapon. in both cases this value is not indicative of the weapon's destructive power. here are my examples:

1.imagine an "ubertronium" superdonductive composite that acts like a basic emmiter component of a weapon. let us say we kick in som 10 jules pers second energy trough it (10 watts). now, this fictional compund has the property to generate heavy space time distortions at some point away from the aparature. if we take 100 such devices and focus that distortion in one point. we get an artificial black hole, for the price of 1000watts or 1 kW. that black hole depending on it's size could do a bunch of FAR more destructive thingies then say 1 kW visible spectrum laser. the two weapons are of the same power, but they are not of the same distructivness.

2.in this second example imagine another material called "hellonearthonium". this baby, when exposed to certain exotical forms of radiation, emites a stream of "hellonearton" particles. we asume for the purpose of this expeeriment that the total energy carried by the particles emited is 6.241506363e+19 eV or 10J (same as before). if the beam lasts 1s that is a beam with a total power of 10W. but when these particles strike normal matter they destabilise the atomic nucleus (similar to what real life neutrons do) causen a chain reaction of nuclear fission that turns the entire target object into a fission bomb. thus a 10w "hellonearthon" beam does far more damage then a 10W laser.

or 10W anything for that fact. a bulet of 0.01kg moving at 400m/s has a total of 800J of energy that is 80 times more then the afore mentioned weapons. does this value really represent it's destructive power? not even when compared to other bulets. a hollow point bullet of the same parameters would cause severe damage to tissues of an un-armored target, but fail miserably against modern body-armour. an AP round would pass through a human torso allmost harmlessly (unless in penetrates a major arthery or something) but is the only way to penetrate kevlar vests.

so i propose that when we descuss weapon destructive power, we mesure the actual destruction caused to the type of target involved. any comments?

finally some common sence

 

[Lord Vasago]

You do the math - what do you think is the kinetic force of instantly accelerating a ship from zero to 20,000x the speed of light in less than a second for a ship that weighs a few BILLION tonnes?

Answer - mega fucking extreme

Doesn't St create a warpbubble ? So size and weight wouldn't really matter. btw it's space so there is less power needed than when in atmosfeer.

but 20,000x speed of light in less then a second is awesome. The shields of the ships must take a lot of distress i suppose.

 

[Lord Vasago]

hey guys forgive me when i react on something that allreaddy u had a battle about I'm catching up on like 300 pages lol so bear with me lmao

 

[Lord Vasago]

Actually, Lucas DID say quite plainly the story ended with him... so... yeah.

euh you should look at the films as some kind of Anakin Skywalkers Chronicles lmao

Lucas stated that in the Eu everthing is cannon except when it contradicts the movies. I find it to be a fair statement. So if it contradicts the movies it is considered non-cannon i can live with that.
But can you live with the fact that in St there are a lot of contradictions in one season of a series. like the size of the defiant to name one