Street Harrassment.!!!

[joepistole]

if

joepistole,
This is the second (or is it the third?) time you've made that claim, and the second time you've utterly failed to back it up with anything at all.

Actually, I have backed it up, many times now. Your refusal to acknowledge fact and reality really isn’t my problem. I have questioned the veracity of the video and the struggling young actress who starred it for all the many reasons previously and repeatedly stated whereas you mindlessly accept the video and the words of this young actress as gospel truth without question. You regard the video and this struggling young actress as sacrosanct. In your view, it cannot be questioned as it is gospel. And I have also repeatedly stated that neither you nor I know the veracity of the video and the struggling young actress who starred it. We only have their word that they are truthful. Well, given all the reasons I have repeatedly stated, that isn't sufficient proof. There are significant motivations for the makers of this video to lie and I have previously spelled out those motivations.

What you have repeatedly done is to pretend facts do not exist. You have used a host of fallacies. You have accused me of taking positions and of saying things I didn’t’ say or even hint at. You have repeatedly lied. Unfortunately for you, I am not going to defend positions I do not take or subscribe to just to make you feel better. You stepped in it, now live with it.

Want to try for the home run?

This isn’t about homeruns.

You're the guy with the avoidance problem. I ask you uncomfortable questions; you avoid. That's how it has gone. I mean, I understand why you're defensive, but you can't bluff through this. You need to either call it quits or pony up.

Actually no, I am avoiding nothing and from my perspective there is no reason to bluff anything. From my perspective, this is really quite simple and straight forward. You on the other hand have a lot to be defensive about. You have repeatedly engaged in a host of deceptions, lies and fallacies. I suspect that is why we are still having this discussion. You have offered nothing but more deception, which is generally considered a defensive tactic friend. The plain and simple fact is I question the veracity of this video and the struggling actress who starred in it. You do not. You have taken offense that the veracity of the video and actress even be questioned even though you have no proofs, only their claims. And the truth is as I have stated from the onset and repeated with almost every post, that neither you nor I know if the video and actress in question were truthful. If you were not defensive, you could be honest…something you have yet to be, something you probably cannot be.

I answered every legitimate question you asked. You just didn’t like the answers. The questions I didn’t answer were not related to our discussion or my position which was and remains the basis for this discourse. I didn’t answer your questions about specific words which used would constitute harassment, because frankly the question is infantile and pointless. There are no specific words which if used would constitute harassment. Women, men, my dogs, can all be harassed without words or with any words, context and perception is everything. So to engage in an argument about what words which if used constitute harassment is just silly and pointless. It is quite frankly infantile. It isn’t my cup of tea and it has nothing to do with the subject of our discussion.

Given some people are denser than others; I will repeat myself one more time for your edification. I question the veracity of the video in question for all the reasons previously stated. That doesn’t mean that sexual harassment doesn’t occur. That doesn’t mean that sexual harassment should be condoned. I have said and will say once again for your edification, that harassment of any kind should not be condoned, sexual or otherwise, be it with words or with gestures.

What you need to do James is be honest or quit. You also might want to brush up on forum rules.

 

[Liebling]

Is it just me, but did this whole thread spend the last three pages just moderators arguing with posters and posters arguing with moderators and bringing up past beefs as evidence. Good to know the status quo hasn't changed. Thanks to Tiassa who is at least making an attempt to keep the thread on track.

The video was interesting. Albeit a little put on, and it gives the impression that this is how it is in America. But it's definitely not, and I have never experienced this kind of behaviour in men who I have interreacted with except on occasion in a club/bar. And while the lewd comments aren't acceptable, I do go to bars to socialize and I do think some of the banter of one or two of the males as being conversational, not harrasing.

I am sure that if I walked around in some of the seedier areas in Chicago, I would get the same sorts of treatment. I think it's not a nature issue at all, it's about the parents of children treating women with respect and teaching their children to do the same, as well as being taught manners and civility. This is something we are sorely lacking in some of our inner-city areas, and over 60% of the households are single mother households with no male or street males teaching these young boys to treat women that way. It's uncivil, but it's not about the nature of men. Plenty of men are very civil towards women even with being raised in a bad area. If it was Nature, you would see more instances of being aggressive towards other males not being lewd towards a female. Women by nature tend to pick someone who can provide and protect them. Men search for women who can breed. That's nature.

 

[pjdude1219]

if

Actually, I have backed it up, many times now. Your refusal to acknowledge fact and reality really isn’t my problem. I have questioned the veracity of the video and the struggling young actress who starred it for all the many reasons previously and repeatedly stated whereas you mindlessly accept the video and the words of this young actress as gospel truth without question. You regard the video and this struggling young actress as sacrosanct. In your view, it cannot be questioned as it is gospel. And I have also repeatedly stated that neither you nor I know the veracity of the video and the struggling young actress who starred it. We only have their word that they are truthful. Well, given all the reasons I have repeatedly stated, that isn't sufficient proof. There are significant motivations for the makers of this video to lie and I have previously spelled out those motivations.

actually joe its just weird to refuse to accept something at face value without a compelling reason. i've seen the video and can see no reason not to accept it at face value. hell i've researched it and the only knock i can find against it was the white people harrassing her were edited out. the claim being most of those were with poor audio quaility. but the only people i can see who've claimed it to be fake like your doing are rabid antifeminists and misogynist

 

[Trooper]

What is a mysgynists?

 

[Kittamaru]

I will say... I think, more unnerving to a woman than any comments/catcalls... are the guys that just leer at you, or follow you silently.

 

[pjdude1219]

What is a mysgynists?

oh go troll someone else you prima donna.

 

[joepistole]

actually joe its just weird to refuse to accept something at face value without a compelling reason. i've seen the video and can see no reason not to accept it at face value. hell i've researched it and the only knock i can find against it was the white people harrassing her were edited out. the claim being most of those were with poor audio quaility. but the only people i can see who've claimed it to be fake like your doing are rabid antifeminists and mysgynists

EXcept if you were paying attention you would know I never said it was fake. I said repeatedly I question the veracity of these people and the video. There is a difference. It means I am not convinced it is truthful. But I didn't say it was fake. There is a difference. I am skeptical for all the reasons I have previously and repeatedly mentioned.

You just acknowledged the video has been edited.

 

[Tiassa]

Don't Worry. Be Happy.

​

Filk off!

Here's a little song I wrote; chicks should sing it note for note: Don't worry. Be happy.

Every life we have some trouble; when you worry, you make it double. Don't worry. Be happy. Now.

All the boys they want some head. One of 'em forced you in your bed. Don't worry. Be happy.

The landlord says your rent is late; fuck him well and he will wait. Don't worry. Be happy. Look at me. I'm happy.

Don't worry. Be happy. I'll give you my phone number. When you're worried, call me; I'll make you happy.

Ain't no cash, ain't got no style. Bitch, you really owe me a smile. But don't worry. Be happy.

'Cause when you worry your face will frown, and that will bring the boys all down. So don't worry. Be happy. Now.

Now there, this song I wrote, I hope you learned it note for note. Like good little children. Don't worry. Be happy.

Listen to what I say: In life we have some trouble, but when you worry you make it double. Don't worry. Be happy. Now.

Don't worry, don't worry; don't do it. Be happy. Put a smile on your face. Don't bring the boys all down like this.

Don't worry. It will soon pass, whatever it is. Don't worry. Be happy.

I'm not worried. I'm happy.​

____________________

Notes:

Bors, Matt. "Street harassment—find your match today!" Daily Kos Comics. 5 November 2014. DailyKos.com. 5 November 2014. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/05/1341789/-Cartoon-Street-harassment-find-your-match-today

 

[Trippy]

I'm hardly huge, as such, but I'm pretty sure most of these skeptics aren't turned on or even gratified by the idea of me inserting my penis into whatever orifice they pick.

TARDIS sized - it feels bigger on the inside.

Sorry It's something that... Came up at work yesterday... (You know can't help myself, right?)

 

[pjdude1219]

EXcept if you were paying attention you would know I never said it was fake. I said repeatedly I question the veracity of these people and the video. There is a difference. It means I am not convinced it is truthful. But I didn't say it was fake. There is a difference. I am skeptical for all the reasons I have previously and repeatedly mentioned.

You just acknowledged the video has been edited.

bull fucking shit. you never allowed for the possibility for it to real. oh i was paying attention. i get you question them but you do so for no other reason than your own fucked up biases. I'm sorry at the end of the day you showed your just another dick who thinks women are objects

Well there are two possibilities. This is either a publicity stunt on her part or the men in New York City are extraordinarily desperate and/or bored. Because she's not that attractive.

She has certainly received a lot of attention with this video. She has been making all the news programs. So if it is publicity she wants, and what struggling actress doesn't want publicity, she is certainly getting it.

Doesn't anyone think it odd that in a city of 9 million people, she is the only woman this happens to?

do you deny saying this. first off your a pig for attacking her on her looks and second at no point did you entertain that this is the normal you provided 2 option either she is faking or men in new york or bored for paying attention to someone ugly. you down played what women go through. and yes i've seen your "reasons" people lie. that's been your mantra. oh and that she is an actress those are your reasons. its time for to a great big step back and look in the mirror. cause from where i'm standing the score real easy to read. your just another misogynist pissed of at being called out on what women go for. want me to buy into your conspircy theory get some real proof other than she is an ugly actress.

 

[joepistole]

bull fucking shit. you never allowed for the possibility for it to real. oh i was paying attention. i get you question them but you do so for no other reason than your own fucked up biases. I'm sorry at the end of the day you showed your just another dick who thinks women are objects


do you deny saying this. first off your a pig for attacking her on her looks and second at no point did you entertain that this is the normal you provided 2 option either she is faking or men in new york or bored for paying attention to someone ugly. you down played what women go through. and yes i've seen your "reasons" people lie. that's been your mantra. oh and that she is an actress those are your reasons. its time for to a great big step back and look in the mirror. cause from where i'm standing the score real easy to read. your just another misogynist pissed of at being called out on what women go for. want me to buy into your conspircy theory get some real proof other than she is an ugly actress.

LoL, PJ I hate to interrupt your fantasy, but the two options I outlined are exactly what I have said consistently. There is nothing contradictory in those quotes.. sorry dude.

Either this video and actress are truthful or not. I expressed my skepticism as I have consistently done. You don't think those men in the video are hard-up? You don't think those men, if truthfully represented, are desperate if they have to resort to that kind of behavior to get female attention? You don't think that is a possibility?

 

[iceaura]

That's not how some VERY important people described my duty performance for 20 years.

Those were the guys who found it necessary to formally and officially ban the kind of harassment the video documents, whereupon you had no trouble avoiding violations of such ban; showing us two things:

1) you guys can tell the difference between harassment and friendly neighborliness. You know very well what a superior officer is forbidding when they forbid such behavior.
2) even you guys, not just office workers with female supervisors or the like, can zip it when facing consequences.

Which taken together means
3) you guys are not the completely oblivious and incompetent innocents you claim to be.

I thought that Conor Friedersdorf’s perspective was reasonable.

"Hollaback's video thankfully caused influential organs of public opinion, like The New York Times, to think something should be done about this problem. But reflexively conflating something should be done with a law should be passed is absurd in this case, where there are so many options other than criminalization and so many reasons to believe a law would do much more harm than good.

Street harassment ought to be stigmatized. But the reflex to throw men who catcall in jail suggests activists who conceive of them as villainous caricatures rather than humans, many of whom who can be engaged, reasoned with, and persuaded."

Sounds like reason, sounds like something a sensible person would think and say - but look at motor daddy's, tali89's, et al, posts here. Quote: "If it's not illegal, they did nothing wrong". Harassers take refuge in the current failure of the law to protect the vulnerable from the abusive - a fundamental role of law. Harassers are in fact cowed by threat of consequences. So it's not simple.

I mean, sure, it's not a good idea to pass laws regulating conversation on the public streets. They're not going to work, they are going to be an easily mocked pain in the ass, and they're going to result in authoritarian abuse (by the police, etc) in much the way the anti-drug laws led to stop and frisk, the seat belt laws led to stop and search. But still - the issue is one of assault. Is there really nothing to be done, legally?

Edit in - I should put my own answer out: very little, but possibly disproportionately effective. I would frame some kind of civil regulation on presumption of responsibility if a fight starts, as in car accidents where certain factors automatically assign a proportion of responsibility according to circumstances such as having rear-ended a stopped car - so that the catcaller is legally responsible for consequences. He's taking a risk.

 

[pjdude1219]

LoL, PJ I hate to interrupt your fantasy, but the two options I outlined are exactly what I have said consistently. There is nothing contradictory in those quotes.. sorry dude.

its not a fantasy you misogynistic loon. its the real world.

Either this video and actress are truthful or not. I expressed my skepticism as I have consistently done.

yes we know. people lie, and she is an ugly actress and that's all you needed to pretend this is false. i'm sorry but your reasons are bullshit and your smarmy attitude only shows the misogyny your presenting.

You don't think those men in the video are hard-up? You don't think those men, if truthfully represented, are desperate if they have to resort to that kind of behavior to get female attention? You don't think that is a possibility?

No i don't. and its really besides the point. you really to take a long look in the mirror cause i find its funny your so proud of your progressive beliefs but here you are showing that when it comes to women your no different than the rights. this video is real and you my friend need to grow the fuck up.

 

[Kittamaru]

Okay pjdude, time to pull it back a bit - no need to let joe get under your skin that much

 

[pjdude1219]

Okay pjdude, time to pull it back a bit - no need to let joe get under your skin that much

I refuse to coddle hate. when confronted with hate and bigotry and sexism and everything we shouldn't pull back. what he is saying is wrong. that its a joke for him to dismiss a women for being ugly is down right scary.

 

[Kittamaru]

I refuse to coddle hate. when confronted with hate and bigotry and sexism and everything we shouldn't pull back. what he is saying is wrong. that its a joke for him to dismiss a women for being ugly is down right scary.

I understand that pj - trust me, I know how ya feel - It blows my mind that people cannot see the issue with unwanted advances and the like. At the same time, stooping essentially to that level isn't going to help

Take the high road

 

[pjdude1219]

I understand that pj - trust me, I know how ya feel - It blows my mind that people cannot see the issue with unwanted advances and the like. At the same time, stooping essentially to that level isn't going to help

Take the high road

whats the high road ignoring it? i've seen so many times that people in a position to help those that are being harrassed and bullied and oppressed do nothing. i was one of those people that could have been helped and was ignored because it was convientent. I will never stay quiet. we have an obligation to help.

 

[Kittamaru]

I'm not asking you to ignore it when you see it happening - letting people get a rise out of you over the great anonymity of the Internet is just going to get your blood pressure up

 

[joepistole]

its not a fantasy you misogynistic loon. its the real world.
yes we know. people lie, and she is an ugly actress and that's all you needed to pretend this is false. i'm sorry but your reasons are bullshit and your smarmy attitude only shows the misogyny your presenting. No i don't. and its really besides the point. you really to take a long look in the mirror cause i find its funny your so proud of your progressive beliefs but here you are showing that when it comes to women your no different than the rights. this video is real and you my friend need to grow the fuck up.

Actually, no I am not proud of my "progressive beliefs". Actually, I think of myself as a classical conservative or an independent. I like objectivity and science. I like reason over hyperbole or some slavish devotion to an ideology. I don't like ideologues of either stripe. It just so happens "progressives" have become much more conservative in the last few decades and so called conservatives; well they have gone off the deep end and into the land of crazy. They have become a threat to the health and well-being of the nation. When Republicans threaten to cause a debt default and are willing to sacrifice the full faith and credit of the nation, the economic health and vitality of the nation, for an ideology or an ideologue or a bunch of ignorant immoral right wing entertainers reveling if demagoguery, well that is too far. And that is why anything left of Genghis Khan today in America is considered a progressive by these so called conservatives.

The fact is so called progressives are using this instance as a banner for their cause without knowing if it is truthful. That is like leading with your jaw. What happens if in a few days, weeks or months it comes out this was all faked? Folks like you who accept this stuff without question are just asking to be set up for a fall. I have never accused my brethren at either end of the political spectrum as being intelligent. Ideologues operate in a world divorced from reality, a land where ideology always triumphs over reason. That is not the land I live in friend. There is a middle road, a road that uses common sense and rational thought.

If you want to have a discussion about harassment, you don’t need this video and you don’t need the actress to have that discussion. This video stretches credulity for the reasons previously given. The irony here is that advocates against harassment engage in harassment to further their agenda. The bottom line here is that harassment of any kind should not be condoned, be it sexual harassment or your run of the mill bullying that unfortunately goes on every day around the globe. We see it in Sciforums by so called “progressives” and by so called "conservatives". One would hope that at some point we would learn to treat each other with more civility and respect. But in the end we are all frail humans and subject to all the faults thereof. We are a work in progress or at least I hope we are.

 

[Kittamaru]

Truthfully Joe, blaming it on "progressives" or "conservatives" or anyone else is just as counter productive as anything else - in the end, it's a matter of all of us learning to put aside our differences for the greater good... something our Politicks can't seem to do