The Greatest Civilization Ever

Australia's just an example. :) It's not like Australians invented cavern records, hehe

"Maybe they stole them"
lol! *coughs, and gestures at gunpowder* :D
 
Fraggle,

OK, so I have a tendency to wax pedantic. Sorry. I’m still well within the standards of this website but at my age I should be able to do better. I am fascinated by economics and so also by the ramifications of true “civilization.” Division of labor, big surplus, discretionary income, written language, anonymity. Education and entertainment as institutions and professions.
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The only thing better than a nice person, is one who can admit that they were "hostile." Cool

Anyway... What I am most confused is the contradicting facts that everyone is saying....

1) it was at the end of the ice age
2) there were still "ice-bridges"
3) the ice bridges extended to Antartica
4) yet, the map shows Antartica withOUT ice, I thought. Correct?

(earlier from Avatar)
The SUBglacial topography of Queen Maudland in Antactica, which the Piri Reis map shows accurately, was not mapped until 1949 by a joint British-Swedish science endevour..
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Were these people of Asian origin? If so, we should really give credit to the Asians, not the Turks.
 
A whole lot of speculation

Right, thanks for the info FraggleRock. :)

4) yet, the map shows Antarctica withOUT ice, I thought. Correct?
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It was 10 000 years ago. We have only a rough idea of the end of the ice age, so who's to know what the land might have looked like? Britain itself was completely forested. And you've got to keep in mind that people 10 000 years ago were not likely to have sophisticated topographical equipment; they were pretty smart enough to even provide a roughly accurate sketch of the landscape.

Think of it like this:

There can still be ice bridges at the end of the ice age. It takes a long time to melt a gigantic block of ice. And isn't it possible that the maps were drawn of a different region of Antarctica, merely because the settlers did not camp where they arrived? Naturally, they would want to leave the ice and head inland or south, to dryer, warmer lands. They would not stay to map an area they would not use. If Britain was forested, then Antarctica was not entirely ice-covered back, was it? Which would explain the abberration in Piri Reis' map. And it is said that Antarctica was not "discovered" until 1818, so Piri was not even there in person. He was just going on the information that he found off other people's maps.
 
Re: Firefly; Siddhartha:

Originally posted by Fraggle Rocker
No way. The Europeans had gunpowder.
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They had gunpowder when they were all lined up and ready to fight. Didn't the Inca's have any technologically superior enemies?
 
I do not know who talks about the ice bridges but that is definetelly not I:mad:
I said that there was a land bridge connecting Antartica with South America 10 000 years ago- NO ICE BRIDGE THERE
 
It was 10 000 years ago. We have only a rough idea of the end of the ice age, so who's to know what the land might have looked like?
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easy, Blue
We know the constline 10 000 years ago - excavations
so we know the ocean water level at that time
if we lover the water to that level nowadays somehow a land bridge between SA and Antartica would show up
 
Gondwana included what is now Antarctica, South America, Africa, India, New Zealand, Madagascar and Australia. Over the millions of years, the climatic changes had enabled flora and fauna to develop and spread across the globe, which is why we find dinosaur bones in what are now frozen lands, coal and oil in the Antarctic - who could imagine this was once tropical?

http://www.trump.net.au/~joroco/gondwanastory.htm

http://www.learnz.org.nz/2001/rotoiti/gondwana-beech.htm

gondwana.gif
 
The sacred grove

The Celts were the greatest ancient culture.
The Druids were an interesting group, which understood the beauty of the cycle of the world around them.
The Celts were terrifying warriors often going into battle naked wrapped in chains.
They were a beautiful people that loved the natural world around them.
The sacred grove of the oaks.

Then the vikings.
Especially their sailing technology.

The Scottish and the Irish.

All I may add great ancestors of mine.
:cool:

-The ghosts of the past give meaning to my present-

Rowen
 
I'd much rather live in a modern Westernized country, but as for the greatest civ of history, I say Greeks. Compared to the Romans:

Greece (possibly Athens)
-philosophy: Plato, Socrates
-medicine: Hippocrates
-democracy
-tragedy/comedy

Imperial Rome
-roads, and sexually-obsessed war-mongering tyrants. (that would be Rome at its fall, not early Roman republic)

BTW, I don't think anyone's mentioned ancient Egypt.
 
The Vikings are my favorite civ. They (at least the men) were the first Europeans to reach N. America, by way of Iceland. They were also really crazy about warfare and battle. Part of their belief is that, in order to go to heaven, you have to die fighting in battle. Guys who die lying in their beds at home go to hell. And can you guess what the Viking heaven, Valhalla is like? Battle, beer, and women are the main elements.
I also like the Celts, cause they're my ancestors.
I think the great thinking civs are Greece, China, and perhaps India.
Roman civilization will always be remembered for it's efficiency, power, and influence, the same reasons America will be remembered.

Gurglo
 
This thread glorifies Humans:mad:

:bugeye: but to be honest I am interested in the subject...

I really like the egyptians. I believe both the romans and the greeks borrowed heavily from them. They made some amazing stuff. If I had a time machine I would go back and stop that little worm(whats his name?) from shooting off the sphinx's nose. I think they invented running water too and they had some remarkable medical equipment.
What happened to the egyptians? They used to be cool... now look at 'em:(

Native americans had the right idea.... paid for it.

If we want to talk about modern civilisations I have to say russia was really cool, I like america for the same reasons, they both had really wierd and complex conspiracies going, heaps of secrecy and decieving of their public. For some reason I respect that. America might still be doing it.

Lets talk about crappy civilisations, britains always been a skum hole if you ask me, dirty disease filled history. They used to toss their garbage out their windows and god knows what else.
No offense to the brits here, englands cleaned up its act since the era I'm talking about, like around the 1400's.
And what about laplanders?! Man I HATE laplanders!

Ps: You guys were talking about the ice age and I believe the sea level was around 90 METRE's(thats metres) lower than it is now. So you can imagine the shapes of continents would have been quite different and alot of land bridges would have been around.
 
The Iraqis are my favorites. They drawed attention of every one for long period of time. NOW! They are going to control the world!
 
I would go back and stop that little worm(whats his name?) from shooting off the sphinx's nose.
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i believe a muslim general ordered it to be shot at first because he thought it was mocking him. i forget his name though. he was also searching for treasure, which he thought lay beneath the sphinx.
 
about marauding, barbaric civilizations, it would have to be the mongols. i mean, they defined barbaric. and to think they would have ravaged europe if Ogodei hadn't drunk so much and died. ahh..well.
 
Wow!! Is this a rich forum!

Lots of information, just as much speculation, and a little ejaculation (mental masturbation?!?)

Their are some worthy people here indeed. People who are knowledgeable yet speak plainly. So let me ask this, has man ever created a society where the individual was truly free?

I believe we came close here in the U.S.of A. but dropped the ball in the last century. Anyway, truly interested in your thoughts, as for me that is man's true quest; Freedom. freedom, not in isolation or the wilderness, but freedom in a society that respects and preserves those freedoms.

Thanks, HBH

OH BTW: an interesting commentary commonly pervades historical writing and research. In essence scientific progress virtually stood still after Greece's defeat and stayed stagnant throughout the period of the Roman Empire (although they deserve at least a C, or would it be an A in Civil engineering for the development of Concrete). Some scholars attribute this to the fundamental difference between the Greeks and Romans in that Greeks were given to speculate and experiment, whilst Romans concentrated on the practical. You might say Greeks were inventors, Romans politicians.

If god is within us all, truly Archimedes had his brain.
 
Wet1
Vikings were a whole 'nother animal. The reason these people did the sea voyage thing was that there was not enough food and resources to go around. They pillaged and conquered for women, slaves, food, and items of use. The sea was a most dreadful thing for them. Ever actually seen a Viking Longboat or it's mockup? How could these men manage to deal with the sea in such a craft? With no knowledge of weather other than folklore the was often no advance warning of sever storms. Many is the voyage that did not return, just from sea conditions.
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heh perhaps you should read a little about the Vikings before you start babling about then.
I dont have the skill to tell you everything about them, but i can tell you they are worth a read.

They have done some funky shit, they even plunder rome, was it not for a slight navigation error where they ended up at small city called Luma north of Rome. Unfortuntly the arabs which the Vikings had plunder all over the north afrika coast and 15 year early in spain, did not find the vikings trading stile very funny and attack them on there way home destroing over 50% of there fleet (22 left out of 62).


Best civs
Vikings
Mongols
Chinese

p.s.
even by today standards the longboat is a very capable ship.
 
just reread some of the viking stories, there a basicly 4 major stories i call them:

A trip to Rome(the one above)

Months of vacation in Persia 920
(A trip down russia's rivers with a small pitstop to carry the boats over land to the next river, then months of plundering all over the place, followed by a massive retreat(arabs got pissed again) ending in a massive battle near volga killing most of the viking)

France is nice 840-
(after the death of king Ludvig the frence forgot the coastal defence inviting the Viking to plunder every major city 1 by 1 culminating in Paris, where there was a large celebration until the vikings came and kill everyone that was not fast enogh, including the bishop infront of his alter(wonder why that important).
The french then tryes to bribe the viking, which only leads to more plundering ect.ect. this one ends with the french building defences at there citys and giving Normandiet to the vikings which now are chancing to Xianty and becomming quite boring.
)


England, Hey we can live here to 833-
this 1 start of with a english tax collector trying to arrest some vikings, so ofcause they kill the tax collector and his gang, returning some year later to get revenge(on the dead taxman?) they rob and plunder a church and a convent killing everybody and getting there hand on some preaty nice stuff(perhaps the dog survived).
This is follow by 15 years of reconisance for setteling by the norsmen and the danish taking everything that not bolted to the ground.
it then trails of in several huge battles where the Viking and the English conquers and reconquers most of england and Ireland (scothland?).
 
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The Greeks.

They had a nice balance between culture, political system and military achievements. The main subject in school was philosophy and the teachers we're philosophers. They we're also one of the first civilisation(if not the only) with democracy. Ok, it was a very primitive democracy but it was still very good. As for Military achievements one must only look at Alexandre the Great.
 
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