The Language of Physics.

[iceaura]

I disagree, the plants do the math and employ mathematical growth functions.

They don't.
Why would they? Their mechanisms and means produce the patterns we see directly and empirically; any time or resources spent on the abstraction and simplification necessary to create and employ mathematical functions that approximately describe what they just did would be completely wasted.

 

[Michael 345]

I disagree, the plants do the math and employ mathematical growth functions.
Of course they don't know they do that. The mathematical growth instructions eventually become hardwired in the DNA, by natural selection.

I disagree, the plants do the math and employ mathematical growth functions.

Anthropomorphising at its best

Of course they don't know they do that. The mathematical growth instructions eventually become hardwired in the DNA, by natural selection.

No they don't. PHYSICS does not become wired into DNA by any sort of selection

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said: ↑
I disagree, the plants do the math and employ mathematical growth functions.
Of course they don't know they do that. The mathematical growth instructions eventually become hardwired in the DNA, by natural selection.

The growth instruction is a simple equation, one size fits all.

They don't.
Why would they? Their mechanisms and means produce the patterns we see directly and empirically; any time or resources spent on the abstraction and simplification necessary to create and employ mathematical functions that approximately describe what they just did would be completely wasted.

What mechanisms and means? The mathematics are applied 1 step at a time. No one is wasting time. Au contraire, it is one of the most efficient growth pattern in nature for a number of purposes. It is orderly and functional, just what nature likes. That's why it survived natural selection and became part of the DNA growth instruction. It is a "common denominator' in a host of dynamic natural growth patterns and part of the DNA growth instructions in biological organisms.

No they don't. PHYSICS does not become wired into DNA by any sort of selection

The Fibonacci sequence is not a physical thing, it is a exponential (mathematical) growth pattern.
Growth in biological patterns are contained in DNA growth instructions. The information why and how a plant grows its branches and leaves via Fibonacci patterns are contained in the organisms DNA growth instructions.

WHY DO FIBONACCI NUMBERS APPEAR IN PATTERNS OF GROWTH IN NATURE? A MODEL FOR TISSUE RENEWAL BASED ON ASYMMETRIC CELL DIVISION

1. Introduction

Many examples of Fibonacci numbers are found in phenotypic structures of plants and animals. Indeed, Fibonacci numbers often appear in number of flower petals, spirals on a sunflower or nautilus shell, starfish, and fractions that appear in phyllotaxis [4, 18, 10]. In art, the aesthetic proportions of the human body as suggested by Leonardo da Vinci’s “Vitruvian Man” are described by ratios of Fibonacci numbers (termed the “golden ratio”) [5]. At lower levels of complexity, i.e. the intracellular and cellular scales, Fibonacci numbers have also been reported.

For example, the organization of nucleic acid bases in the DNA sequence has an order (called the DNA SUPRA code) that follows Fibonacci numbering [6, 7]. The order of replication of DNA in cells also appears to follow the Fibonacci series [9]. Moreover, human epithelial cells that were grown in vitro showed a clonal growth pattern that followed the Fibonacci sequence

[19, 20].

While these patterns of Fibonacci numbers appear at the molecular and cellular scales, it does not explain how Fibonacci numbers appear in patterns of growth at the organism scale. We believed that the key to solving this problem was to investigate relevant dynamic processes that occur at the cellular scale because tissues are fluid, self-renewing, not stationary.

For example, in a seminal study, Spears and Bicknell-Johnson [15, 16] modeled the dynamics of cell division as an asymmetric process and discovered that the cell population expansion followed the Fibonacci numbers. In their study, asymmetric cell division was designed as a process that produces two progeny cells with different temporal (not phenotypic) properties.

Based on this mechanism, their model output simulated the dynamic growth of cell populations and generation of hierarchical patterns found in tissues. Our current study builds upon this asymmetric cell division mechanism to understand the emergent-type laws that control the growth and renewal of tissues which give rise to these patterns of Fibonacci numbers in nature.

https://www.fq.math.ca/Papers1/55-5/Boman.pdf

 

[Michael 345]

DNA

DNA operates as per physics

How far down this rabbit hole do you wish to go? For me it stops here

 

[Write4U]

DNA operates as per physics

How far down this rabbit hole do you wish to go? For me it stops here

So does a computer program. When will you understand the nature of "information"?

DNA is a biological memory stick. It holds the growth instruction for the organism for its entire life.

 

[Michael 345]

WHY DO FIBONACCI NUMBERS APPEAR IN PATTERNS OF GROWTH IN NATURE?

Because that is how physics fits stuff together

So does a computer program. When will you understand the nature of "information"?

Physics fits stuff together, Minions call some of this fitted together stuff information, and / or instruction

Physics follows said information / instruction (note - labelled post action by physics). It follows BECAUSE IT HAS NO CHOICE

Minions have gotten good at reading some of the information / instruction and can make predictions re the reactions which will flow from the
information / instruction being followed

Confidence in the prediction is due to the fact physics has no choice but to follow the information / instruction. They are ONE option out of a grand total of ONE option

 

[Write4U]

Because that is how physics fits stuff together

Right, that's how nature determined via "natural selection", how things fit together in the most efficient way.
The result is a logical outcome of the gradual evolution of regular sets of growth pattern instructions in the organism's DNA.
That's why;

DNA is made of chemical building blocks called nucleotides. These building blocks are made of three parts: a phosphate group, a sugar group and one of four types of nitrogen bases. To form a strand of DNA, nucleotides are linked into chains, with the phosphate and sugar groups alternating.

The four types of nitrogen bases found in nucleotides are: adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G) and cytosine (C). The order, or sequence, of these bases determines what biological instructions are contained in a strand of DNA. For example, the sequence ATCGTT might instruct for blue eyes, while ATCGCT might instruct for brown.

The complete DNA instruction book, or genome, for a human contains about 3 billion bases and about 20,000 genes on 23 pairs of chromosomes.

What does DNA do:

DNA contains the instructions needed for an organism to develop, survive and reproduce. To carry out these functions, DNA sequences must be converted into messages that can be used to produce proteins, which are the complex molecules that do most of the work in our bodies.

Each DNA sequence that contains instructions to make a protein is known as a gene. The size of a gene may vary greatly, ranging from about 1,000 bases to 1 million bases in humans. Genes only make up about 1 percent of the DNA sequence. DNA sequences outside this 1 percent are involved in regulating when, how and how much of a protein is made.

https://www.genome.gov/about-genomics/fact-sheets/Deoxyribonucleic-Acid-Fact-Sheet#

These are physical interactions, but the way they interact is based on the specific "values" of the DNA "words" which must be executed with mathematical rigor to yield reliable results. Natural selection is also responsible for the adoption of DNA mathematics as a reliable coding system for making exact copies and knowing when to start growth, when to stop growth, and what patterns growth itself must follow. This is what makes the mathematical function as the ideal candidate for universal dynamical growth functions, not the other way around. The universe is a mathematical pattern, because that's the only way it can function in an orderly manner.

 

[Michael 345]

Natural selection

There is no natural selection of physics

Physics turns up with a "1 am here" attitude and "I am your only choice"

The universe is a mathematical pattern, because that's the only way it can function in an orderly manner.

What about "I am your only choice"?

Perfect for a function in an orderly manner system

 

[Write4U]

There is no natural selection of physics
Physics turns up with a "1 am here" attitude and "I am your only choice"
What about "I am your only choice"?
Perfect for a function in an orderly manner system

Right, the only possible functional choice is the regularity of "mathematical (algebraic) functions" at all times. We know physics is based on the interaction of relational values (of all kinds) interacting via mathematical functions.
Just as time and space are inextricably connected, so is universal physics inextricably connected to the mathematical functions as we have observed them to function everywhere equally.

In a self-referential system one of the inevitable patterns (among others) that will emerge;
0 + 1 = 1
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
2 + 3 = 5
3 + 5 = 8
etc.

 

[Michael 345]

"mathematical (algebraic) functions"

Why do you keep pushing "mathematical (algebraic) functions" into the mix

PHYSICS did very well until Minions stuffed up big with

"that looks nice, we will call that form and forms like it patterns" and

"if we put this number (invented abstract) here along with another (invented abstract) here we can make a new (invented abstract). Aren't we clever"

Should have stuck with "physics does produce nice looking snrettaps when physics works with this stuff"

NOT Right, the only possible functional choice is the regularity of "mathematical (algebraic) functions" at all times.

It's Right, the only possible PHYSICAL choice is the regularity of PHYSICAL ARRANGEMENTS at all times.

We know physics is based on the interaction of relational values (of all kinds)

Only because we CALL THEM relational values on perfectly good PHYSICAL VALUES. Minions stuff up AGAIN

Just as time and space are inextricably connected,

My contention is only one exists

so is universal physics inextricably connected to the mathematical functions as we have observed them to function everywhere equally.

Only only only because Minions linked them. We (us Minions) will put this PHYSICAL ARRANGEMENT with this mathematical function

In a self-referential system one of the inevitable patterns (among others) that will emerge;
0 + 1 = 1
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 2 = 3
2 + 3 = 5
3 + 5 = 8
etc.

Of course. Why when you invent a abstract system are you surprised it looks like your invention?

 

[Write4U]

Why do you keep pushing "mathematical (algebraic) functions" into the mix

That is the mathematical part of everything. The way all "values" (physical or otherwise) are being processed. In theory as observed in reality.

(VALUE) INPUT --> (ALGEBRAIC) FUNCTION --> (VALUE) OUTPUT = MATHEMATICAL PROCESS.

 

[Michael 345]

That is the mathematical part of everything. The way all "values" (physical or otherwise) are being processed. In theory as observed in reality.

(VALUE) INPUT --> (ALGEBRAIC) FUNCTION --> (VALUE) OUTPUT = MATHEMATICAL PROCESS.

Did you miss

Right, the only possible PHYSICAL choice is the regularity of PHYSICAL ARRANGEMENTS at all times.

?

 

[Write4U]

Physics turns up with a "1 am here" attitude and "I am your only choice"

Are you religous? What you just posted suggests of appearance of "irreducible complexity" from "physics"?
All of physics start with the evolution of dynamical metaphysics.

Evolution from the "very subtle to gross expression in reality" (David Bohm) is all there is and Evolution is a mathematical discipline. And why not? It is LOGICAL, no?

 

[Write4U]

Did you miss

Right, the only possible PHYSICAL choice is the regularity of PHYSICAL ARRANGEMENTS at all times.
?

Actually there are some variable physical arrangements of H2O . Water, Ice, Vapor, depending on the mathematical environmental values.

If you can prove physics function physically in a mathematical regular manner, you are proving the metaphysically existence of Mathematics as an independent abstract property of spacetime and by extension physics itself.

Physics is the scientific anthropomorphisation of universal mathematical relational values and mathematical processes. It evolves from an implication to a physical expression in reality. How else are we able to predict the future to a fairly high degree of confidence.

If the mathematics hold for human expectation, it holds for any and all expectation, no? Anthropo.......... is the human interpretation and symbolization of everything, but that does not make the underlying logic false!

What is stuff to you may not be stuff to someone else. But all stuff may be expressed as mathematical values to all ......

The mass of the neutrino is much smaller than that of the other known elementary particles.[1] The weak force has a very short range, the gravitational interaction is extremely weak, and neutrinos do not participate in the strong interaction.[4] Thus, neutrinos typically pass through normal matter unimpeded and undetected.[2][3]

Weak
interactions create neutrinos in one of three leptonic flavors:
electron neutrinos (ν e), muon neutrinos (ν μ), or tau neutrinos (ν τ),
in association with the corresponding charged lepton.[5]

Although neutrinos were long believed to be massless, it is now known that there are three discrete neutrino masses with different tiny values, but they do not correspond uniquely to the three flavors. A neutrino created with a specific flavor has an associated specific quantum superposition of all three mass states.

As a result, neutrinos oscillate between different flavors in flight. For example, an electron neutrino produced in a beta decay reaction may interact in a distant detector as a muon or tau neutrino.[6][7] Although only differences between squares of the three mass values are known as of 2019,[8] cosmological observations imply that the sum of the three masses must be less than one millionth that of the electron.[1][9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

Not really physical anymore, is it? It's just a variable value, dependent on it's pattern.

 

[exchemist]

As physics is a human endeavour, by which mankind studies aspects of nature quantitatively, the languages used are first and foremost words, to define the concepts and the quantities to be worked with, and then mathematics, to show the relationships between these quantities and construct models to predict their behaviour.

And, er, that's it.

 

[Michael 345]

Posts Number 154 to long not read, skipped through

Strange after Big Bang happened (not shown to be physics caused but a reasonable hypothesis) mathematics non existent

Stuff is stuff even if stuff gets down to being small tiny bits of stuff

irreducible complexity

Noooooo complexity is multiple parts needing to be present as a group to be able to operate. If one part not present the rest of the group cannot work

I am about irreducibly simplicity

Considering stuff didn't come into existence until the Universe, as it was then, cooled allowing stuff and anti stuff to form and then eliminating most of itself (back to energy???) in the stuff / anti stuff annihilation clean up

So we come to the current situation where stuff won the conflict and Universe has more stuff then anti stuff

Our Universe has finished in a unstable state since the combination of expansion and cooling lead to there being more stuff then anti stuff

Stay tuned for a revelation - some Minions are working on it

Me I am going to drop out (AGAIN) and do a bit more concentrating on my helpful assistant

 

[Write4U]

Our Universe has finished in a unstable state since the combination of expansion and cooling lead to there being more stuff then anti stuff

WHERE ONCE THERE WAS.........PRIOR STUFF ?????
WAS THERE ALWAYS STUFF, EVEN BEFORE THERE WAS STUFF?

 

[Write4U]

As physics is a human endeavour, by which mankind studies aspects of nature quantitatively, the languages used are first and foremost words, to define the concepts and the quantities to be worked with, and then mathematics, to show the relationships between these quantities and construct models to predict their behaviour.

And, er, that's it.

I agree. But if human mathematical models are sufficient to predict future outcomes, then does that not suggest a mathematical aspect to universal machinations? If the shoe fits...?

 

[Michael 345]

WHERE ONCE THERE WAS.........PRIOR STUFF ?????
WAS THERE ALWAYS STUFF, EVEN BEFORE THERE WAS STUFF?

I'm out remember but since there are ads on TV and Kipti is out buying dinner and this is a short reply

Was there stuff before stuff??

Unknown

Speculation suggest (only for our Universe stuff) there was energy

Before the energy before our Universe

Here be a big unknown

Dinner just arrived

 

[Write4U]

Bon Appetit....

I agree with the concept of a fundamentally energetic dynamical state. (Bohm's "pure potential" from which the physical universe emerges in an evolutionary hierarchy of mathematical orders.)

But is energy stuff? Does all energy have the same properties? Does energy give rise to stuff of different kinds?

How do we know or are able to measure any difference between energy and stuff and stuff assembled in patterns, if at all? How does the Universe know?

Does the universe "know" how things work, or does it "work" without needing to know how?

If it does not need to know how things work, on what regularity does the universe depend to do the "work" (function), if at all ?.........