The Trump Presidency

[iceaura]

And Obama.

Sure. But much more so Trump. He's in the mainstream of the bad shit - and it's not a "deep state" river.

Yes. If you have interpreted the observation that it was economically successful as I support it, you are, as usual, wrong.

And if I haven't you are, as usual, bullshitting and trolling with that pattern of query.

Of course, I know already from communist time, that if you carefully look for the reasons of a disaster, you will always find the influence of the political factions of the dissenters from the Party line.

Check out physical reality and historical event some time - it will be there whenever you pull your head out and look around.

That evil you recognize in the US foreign policy since the Soviet collapse has its origin in US politics and a long history. It didn't come from nowhere, and it didn't come from a manifesto. The global totalitarian tendency in the US is not leftwing, not academic, not a school of thought, not even ideological primarily - it's rightwing, corporate, authoritarian, militaristic, colonial in a unique way, reactionary, expedient, and economic. The great totalitarian evils in the US and from the US have and have always had their origin in capitalistic corporations backed by violence. In the US, you follow money to evil - not ideology. Trump is a tinhorn Mussolini, a fantastically well-armed Duvalier : we have no Stalins, or even Ceaușescus.

I would blame for this the technical progress, together with the economic system of capitalism. All what one can blame the US for is that it did not prevent this, did not start to build socialism or so.

And then you take a look to see why not - what, when, where, why, who, prevented the US from "building socialism". That will lead you straight into the current Republican Party, and Donald Trump.

All the stuff about the US you claim to deplore is rolled up and delivered to you in the Trump administration and Republican Party - and you can't see it, you refuse to see it, you go looking for a "deep state", a rewritten history, some kind of alternative to what's right in front of you tweeting away like a bad gas detector.

 

[Schmelzer]

The global totalitarian tendency in the US is not leftwing, not academic, not a school of thought, not even ideological primarily - it's rightwing, corporate, authoritarian, militaristic, colonial in a unique way, reactionary, expedient, and economic. The great totalitarian evils in the US and from the US have and have always had their origin in capitalistic corporations backed by violence. In the US, you follow money to evil - not ideology.

Of course, for a Party soldier, it naturally looks like this. Only one side is totalitarian, and it is that of the political enemy.

I see a lot of totalitarian elements on your side too. In particular, the whole PC thing is totalitarian thought control, which now moves toward imprisonment for "hate speech", and it comes completely from the left. A lot of things with strong totalitarian elements like the child abuse hysteria (with long imprisonment for owning pictures) were bipartisan.

Then, learn to read. That means, think a little bit about the question if I "claimed to deplore" that the US did not start building socialism before writing nonsensical answers.

 

[iceaura]

Of course, for a Party soldier, it naturally looks like this. Only one side is totalitarian, and it is that of the political enemy.

You miss the point. It's not about the nature of the sides, it's about the nature of the US. In the US, the lean toward totalitarianism is also toward the Right, and always has been, as a matter of fact and political power.

It's not that one side is totalitarian and the other isn't. It's that the totalitarian factions on "one side" (your terms) - the Right - have power, and those on "the other side" - the Left - do not, in the US.

It's a difference in power, not virtue.

I see a lot of totalitarian elements on your side too.

You have yet to identify my "side" correctly. That would be a first step in seeing elements of it.
And you can't see shit from inside the American fascist media bubble anyway, which is where you are at the moment.

Here's an excerpt from an eyewitness account of a hundred years ago, from an agent of that aspect of US foreign policy (still operating today) you object to: https://fas.org/man/smedley.htm
He was talking about Donald Trump's father, btw, among others. Apple fell pretty close to the tree, there.

 

[joepistole]

For more than a year now we have been hearing those around Trump offer excuses for his weird behaviors. They keep telling us Trump's ignorant; he's new; he'll learn. Well, he's been a politician for almost 2 years now, when does he stop being new? When does he stop being ignorant? This ignorance excuse is getting a bit old.

The truth is Trump has always been this way and he's not going to change. He has always been ignorant and will always be ignorant. He is incompetent and will always be incompetent.

 

[Quantum Quack]

For more than a year now we have been hearing those around Trump offer excuses for his weird behaviors. They keep telling us Trump's ignorant; he's new; he'll learn. Well, he's been a politician for almost 2 years now, when does he stop being new? When does he stop being ignorant? This ignorance excuse is getting a bit old.

The truth is Trump has always been this way and he's not going to change. He has always been ignorant and will always be ignorant. He is incompetent and will always be incompetent.

Why else would Putin want Trump as POTUS?

 

[Schmelzer]

It's that the totalitarian factions on "one side" (your terms) - the Right - have power, and those on "the other side" - the Left - do not, in the US.

Inconsistent. As Republicans, as Democrats have power in the US. If "the Left" do not have power, it means Democrats are the Right too. And you would, then, fight as Republicans, as Democrats.
But whenever I present Republicans and Democrats as essentially the same, you heavily object and clearly side with the Democrats against fascist Republicans. (As if the Democrats would not be fascist too.)

You have yet to identify my "side" correctly. That would be a first step in seeing elements of it.

Why should I care about the correct identification of your side?

I can, and have, identified many totalitarian aspects in your behavior here. I see you fighting, in the same way like a totalitarian Party soldier, using standard totalitarian discussion techniques. Like personal moral attacks like "denier" if there is only disagreement about facts, or not even this but simply missing support of the Party line. Like moral attacks for using sources from the wrong side.

 

[iceaura]

Inconsistent. As Republicans, as Democrats have power in the US. If "the Left" do not have power, it means Democrats are the Right too. And you would, then, fight as Republicans, as Democrats.

This is where ignorance gets you talking silly.
Of course the Democrats are on the "Right" too. That's not at all controversial - the only people who say otherwise are the bubble dwellers of the US rightwing media, for whom Clinton is a Leftwing politician.

It's kind of obvious, isn't it? Look at the trade deals negotiated by Clinton, NAFTA and the rest - proposals designed and negotiations begun by Reagan; look at Obamacare - not even a public option, or a break on drug prices for Medicare. Look at the Dem leadership's collusion with Wall Street and FIRE, the WTO and the IMF.

Why should I care about the correct identification of your side?

You don't, of course. But that might keep you from posting stupidities and nonsense, such as seeing "totalitarian elements" in what you can't see at all.

But whenever I present Republicans and Democrats as essentially the same, you heavily object and clearly side with the Democrats against fascist Republicans. (As if the Democrats would not be fascist too.)

Yes. The rise of fascism to take over a major Party of the US two-Party system is a serious matter, in my view, and the difference between Republicans and Democrats was significant even without that emergency event.

I can, and have, identified many totalitarian aspects in your behavior here.

You can't, and haven't. They don't exist, for starters. You don't know what you're looking at in the US, second.

Notice how I did not make the obvious moral attack there - I give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are honestly mistaken in these silly misreadings, these ever-convenient strawmen you erect whenever inconvenient facts emerge.

Like personal moral attacks like "denier" if there is only disagreement about facts, or not even this but simply missing support of the Party line. Like moral attacks for using sources from the wrong side.

Says the man who throws "liar" around at the drop of a hat, and with any excuse however contrived.

I never did any of those things.

I never said anything about the morality of you getting suckered by the crudest and most ludicrously worthless of American campaign propaganda, for example, or the standard and famously (in the US) ignorance-based Republican Party line on AGW. I said you were a dumbass for posting that crap on a science forum - or words to that effect - but that's not a moral accusation. Nothing immoral about getting suckered. There is something bizarre about watching the victim insist on being played like that, rejecting all information and help, but bizarre is not immoral either.

So how did you get to the point of prefewrring Donald Trump as a President more likely to encourage multipolarity in global power structures, and diminish US warmongering and terrorist abetting? How could you possibly have gone so badly and flagrantly wrong? Aren't you curious?

 

[Kittamaru]

I think this .gif pretty much sums up Trump PERFECTLY:

Buzz Aldrins reaction to Trumps speech on Space...

 

[Tiassa]

You Know, I Can't Imagine ....

​

I just wanted to make sure I understand what I'm reading, here:

I see a lot of totalitarian elements on your side too.

You have yet to identify my "side" correctly. That would be a first step in seeing elements of it.

Why should I care about the correct identification of your side?

That is to say: Really?

fallout showers riot of shooting stars in dislocated skies in flickering heat in burning sun a race for last place

―Band of Susans↱​

 

[Schmelzer]

That is to say: Really?

Really. I have identified in the denial thread a lot of discussion techniques used by iceaura which I have classified as totalitarian, because they have been used in totalitarian regimes, and because they would be unacceptable in a civilized discussion in an open society. This remains valid independent of the particular "side" which iceaura supports.

Then, the tendency of the Left to split into small factions does not mean that these factions have large differences. In particular, it does not mean that some factions are completely free of totalitarian elements. So, they all more or less support PC, which has obvious elements of Orwellian control of language to reach political aims. The child porn hysteria, which resulted in long prison sentences for owning pictures, a thought crime, was widely supported by the Left too, independent of the particular factions.

Of course the Democrats are on the "Right" too. That's not at all controversial - the only people who say otherwise are the bubble dwellers of the US rightwing media, for whom Clinton is a Leftwing politician.
It's kind of obvious, isn't it?

As if it would matter where one applies the label "left". It is, of course, kind of obvious that there is no big difference between the Republicans and Clinton.

The rise of fascism to take over a major Party of the US two-Party system is a serious matter, in my view, and the difference between Republicans and Democrats was significant even without that emergency event.

I have no problem with you considering these differences being significant - last but not least, you have to live there. But this does not make them significant for me.

Says the man who throws "liar" around at the drop of a hat, and with any excuse however contrived.

I say it with explicit quotes from you as support. Moreover, the claims where I name you a liar are claims about me, about what I think and so on, so I know that they are wrong. And this combined with your inability to defend your lies with explicit quotes is very good evidence. Where is, for example, your quote supporting this lie:

(You did the same with GMOs, in exactly the same direction, btw..

I never said anything about the morality of you getting suckered by ...

Oh, denial is completely unproblematic from a moral point of view?

So how did you get to the point of prefewrring Donald Trump as a President more likely to encourage multipolarity in global power structures, and diminish US warmongering and terrorist abetting?

I got the point from the sources I have used. They were all quite clear about what has to be expected by Clinton, as a fanatical defender of the unipolar world, an extreme warmonger and known supporter, with money, weapons, and tuition (a lot more than "abetting"), of terrorists of the worst sort. So, a person with likeliness exactly zero of what you have listed. Given that she already acted in that way, and promised nothing different, this was reliable enough. On the other side, an unknown guy named Trump known as a businessman and media star, which made quite reasonable foreign policy proposals in his campaign, but, on the other hand, in a quite inconsistent way. Quite unpredictable, but so what, against likeliness zero it is quite easy to win, a likeliness 5% would be completely sufficient.

Regarding the reality, the multipolar world is nicely developing. TPP cancellation was useful for this. There is also an increasing split between US and EU, which would be very helpful for a multipolar world. The conflict between SA and Qatar may appear useful in the same way. None of this would have happened with Clinton. This is not yet anything deep, irreparable, but a promising start.

On the other hand, deep state or not being the cause, Trump has not made anything which would improve the relations with Russia, but even increased tensions with China and Iran. So, the Eurasian alliance Russia/China/Iran against the US will be even strengthened. The main error of Obama - fighting them all, forcing them to ally - continues.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Regarding the reality, the multipolar world is nicely developing. TPP cancellation was useful for this

Maybe you could start a thread and describe how you believe a multi polar world would actually function... in any way different to what we already have today?

 

[Tiassa]

Really. I have identified in the denial thread a lot of discussion techniques used by iceaura which I have classified as totalitarian, because they have been used in totalitarian regimes, and because they would be unacceptable in a civilized discussion in an open society. This remains valid independent of the particular "side" which iceaura supports.

In which case you're talking about Iceaura, not his side:

I see a lot of totalitarian elements on your side too.

You have yet to identify my "side" correctly. That would be a first step in seeing elements of it.

Why should I care about the correct identification of your side?

You need to know what his side is if you're going to be describing it. Trying to slip out on your own words is really, really dishonest, Schmelzer.

And that's the thing: Thirty-three hundred forty-nine posts and you've managed to waste everybody else's time by saying absolutely nothing.

Don't give us that dishonest bullshit, Schmelzer. If you're going to make these threads all about you, then at least have something to say. You've had plenty of time, over two years, to start conducting yourself honestly, and your failure really is a testament to human futility.

You see elements totalitarianism in your own fallacy; there are, of course, reasons, as straw men are built of components one carries along with himself.

Your entire presentation—

I have no problem with you considering these differences being significant - last but not least, you have to live there. But this does not make them significant for me.

—is similarly worthless—e.g., reality itself is not significant for you if you don't live somewhere other than where you do.

Quit wasting time.

 

[iceaura]

I got the point from the sources I have used. They were all quite clear about what has to be expected by Clinton, as a fanatical defender of the unipolar world, an extreme warmonger and known supporter, with money, weapons, and tuition (a lot more than "abetting"), of terrorists of the worst sort. So, a person with likeliness exactly zero of what you have listed. Given that she already acted in that way, and promised nothing different, this was reliable enough.

You don't know how Clinton acted, or what she promised, or what was to be expected from her. You are misinformed, about Clinton. You are parroting bullshit from the crudest and silliest of American fascist media feeds. Remember when you said you didn't need information about Clinton to interpret videos of her? That was foolish of you. You did. You never obtained it.

In addition: You don't even know what I have "listed". You seem to think I have been defending Clinton's warmongering, terrorist abetting, etc., which means you have been reading and believing what you typed about my posting rather than my posting itself.

And none of that in any way way justifies your support for Trump, who was and is worse than Clinton in every one of those respects - obviously and openly.

As if it would matter where one applies the label "left".

In your case, it would prevent some gross errors. Clinton was more on your side than Trump.

Meanwhile: You seemed to think it mattered where you applied the label "totalitarian" - which you applied mistakenly, and without information as usual, based on these phantasms you think you "see".

Sensory deprivation tanks create hallucinations via lack of information. It's a general pattern you have fallen victim to.

I say it with explicit quotes from you as support.

They don't support. Your reasoning is bad.

Moreover, the claims where I name you a liar are claims about me, about what I think and so on, so I know that they are wrong.

No, they are claims about your posting - your identity here - and they are not wrong. You are denying AGW on this forum, for example. That is not a lie, as you claimed it was - it was a description of your posting here, in which you repeatedly "doubted" and claimed as "obviously" biased the ordinary established common physical realities of AGW.

Oh, denial is completely unproblematic from a moral point of view?

I don't live in your fucked up world of politically compromised everything, and no physical reality. Where I come from, Holocaust denial and AGW denial and Jim Crow denial and so forth are just propaganda operations by one faction of American politics - currently in dominant control of the Republican Party, which is potentially disastrous, but nothing more. There is no punishment for them except ridicule from the sane and knowledgable - quite the opposite, they are frequently rewarded with money and political status. They are among the weapons of the wanna-be totalitarians, in the US - your chosen "side".

I have no problem with you considering these differences being significant - last but not least, you have to live there. But this does not make them significant for me.

That's because you don't see fascism, or recognize its implications. The Republican Party has command of the US military and intelligence services - they have their own inertia and bureaucratic natures, including institutional loyalty to the United State and its Constitution etc, but they are not independent actors here: Trump's fascism is in your back yard.

Regarding the reality, the multipolar world is nicely developing

If your idea of "multipolarity" is another Cold War between contending totalitarian States - which wasn't all that cold, if you recall, and ended as many wars do with a unipolar winner presiding over a field of rubble and tragedy.

Are you counting on Trump losing, screwing up? Your blind spot for Putin's fascism may lead you to imagine that as a loss for US hegemony - Tillerson et al will not go down with Trump, or the US even.

 

[Schmelzer]

In which case you're talking about Iceaura, not his side.

Big difference. I see no conflict between iceaura and what I (modulo the differences between Peoples Front of Judea and Judean Peoples Front) see as his side.

You need to know what his side is if you're going to be describing it. Trying to slip out on your own words is really, really dishonest, Schmelzer.

I have a rough idea about his side. Sufficient to identify enough totalitarian tendencies there. As explained. I do not have to know if this side is Peoples Front of Judea or Judean Peoples Front.

And that's the thing: Thirty-three hundred forty-nine posts and you've managed to waste everybody else's time by saying absolutely nothing.

There is, indeed, a lot of waste caused by simple rejection of lies about me. It would be really nice if iceaura would stop lying about me, this would make the reading much more interesting. I know, this is a weakness, I tend to reply to posts which lie about me.

But there was also a lot of content, so if you have been completely unable to see it, this is your problem, not my.

 

[iceaura]

I have a rough idea about his side.

No, you don't. You have proven unable to make a single accurate statement about it on this forum, as far as I know.

You can't even make accurate statements about the simple posts, right in front of you - there's no lying in them, at all, for example.

And this inability to comprehend what conflicts with the presumptions of your ideology bears directly on your inability to recognize the nature of a fascist politician, such as Trump (or Putin). Any "multipolarity" they create is a stage in the battle - fascism produces Caesars, not Senators - and the multinational corporations are a pole, collectively.

 

[Schmelzer]

You don't even know what I have "listed". You seem to think I have been defending Clinton's warmongering, terrorist abetting, etc., which means you have been reading and believing what you typed about my posting rather than my posting itself.

Learn to read, instead of writing fantasies about what I seem to think.

I was answering to your claim that I erred "prefewrring Donald Trump as a President more likely to ...". I have explained why thinking so was reasonable given the data available at that time. That's all.

They are among the weapons of the wanna-be totalitarians, in the US - your chosen "side".

I do not support any side in the fascist rogue state named USA. Neither the side even you name fascist, nor the Democrats, nor your side, however named. I simply see fascism on the Democrats side too, and see no big difference between two differently colored fascist parties.

If your idea of "multipolarity" is another Cold War between contending totalitarian States - which wasn't all that cold, if you recall, and ended as many wars do with a unipolar winner presiding over a field of rubble and tragedy.

Of course, the states who want a multipolar world have to fight the state who likes to preserve the unipolar world where it rules. But this is a transition problem, not the idea of mulitpolarity. If you want to learn how mulitpolarity looks like, feel free to observe the developments in the relations between the Eurasian nations, where they are not distorted by US meddling.

Are you counting on Trump losing, screwing up? Your blind spot for Putin's fascism may lead you to imagine that as a loss for US hegemony - Tillerson et al will not go down with Trump, or the US even.

I'm not counting on Trump doing whatever. Trump has, for me, always been unpredictable, and remains unpredictable. He was preferable only in comparison with the certain evil of Clinton.

I see some elements of Trumps program making some sense. In particular, protectionism. In an ideal situation, protectionism is harmful. Ricardo's theorem. But if the dollar collapses, the victim will be trade, and first of all trade of US. So, protectionism makes sense as a preparation for this. If at the moment when the dollar collapses the trade is already seriously reduced, further collapse of the trade will be not that harmful. Then, selling political influence for money (SA and Qatar weapon deals, without caring about the conflict between two US allies) makes sense too - if that political influence will disappear anyway, getting at least some money out of it is quite rational. TPP combines above - throwing it away increases protectionism but decreases US political influence in Asia. A lot of other things Trump is doing make no sense at all for me. In particular, what he is doing in Syria.

 

[Tiassa]

Big difference. I see no conflict between iceaura and what I (modulo the differences between Peoples Front of Judea and Judean Peoples Front) see as his side.

Always making excuses for sloth: There is reality, and then there are your fallacies.

There is, indeed, a lot of waste caused by simple rejection of lies about me. It would be really nice if iceaura would stop lying about me, this would make the reading much more interesting. I know, this is a weakness, I tend to reply to posts which lie about me.

Quit lying.

No, seriously, you even labored to change a thread about religious supremacism in Indiana into one of your meandering bullshit-wallows about yourself and your superior understanding of the world↗ that somehow defies any worthwhile expression: That is to say, your ante to a discussion of American human rights policy is to change the subject to a screed about your ideas on freedom and society in general, and you just kept on and on on with your two-bit disrespect to the entire community.

And that's pretty much what you do, Schmelzer.

So quit lying.

As suggested↗, it probably works better if you start your own thread. In any case, you need to stop going out of your way to screw up other threads discussing stuff you don't like. Do you really think people don't see what you're doing?

But there was also a lot of content, so if you have been completely unable to see it, this is your problem, not my.

Excremental filler material changing the subject is dubious content at best.

 

[Schmelzer]

Excremental

No need to comment

 

[Kittamaru]

No need to comment

Apparently there was, since you just, kinda, did...

Well done

 

[iceaura]

I was answering to your claim that I erred "prefewrring Donald Trump as a President more likely to ...". I have explained why thinking so was reasonable given the data available at that time. That's all.

You made a crude, obvious, mistake, and a flagrantly bad one - you made it in the face of information and so forth provided to you, and for reasons that were and are garbage. Your thinking was not reasonable - you insisted on remaining almost completely ignorant and got fooled by crude propaganda. What in tennis is called an "unforced error".

Learn to read, instead of writing fantasies about what I seem to think.

I read this:

- - They were all quite clear about what has to be expected by Clinton, as a fanatical defender of the unipolar world, an extreme warmonger and known supporter, with money, weapons, and tuition (a lot more than "abetting"), of terrorists of the worst sort. So, a person with likeliness exactly zero of what you have listed.

That's you, seeming to think that what I have "listed" about Clinton is opposed to your description of what was to be expected from her. "So", you post - drawing a conclusion from evidence. Thinking.

That's not a fantasy, that line of crap. You posted it. You clearly have no idea what I have "listed" about Clinton (which aside from the erroneous intensifiers pretty much agrees with your post there), and instead repeat your own prior bs - you have assigned exactly those presumptively opposed opinions about Clinton to me before, and apparently believed your own typing rather than my corrections.

I do not support any side in the fascist rogue state named USA.

How would you know? You post the propaganda from one side - the fascist faction that took over the Republican Party - apparently without even realizing it, on a wide range of issues - everything from AGW to Clinton's psychopathy.

I simply see fascism on the Democrats side too, and see no big difference between two differently colored fascist parties.

That's the propaganda line - "both sides" - currently dominating US TV under the pressure of the corporate authoritarians. You literally can't get your mind free of that stuff - hypnotized or something.

I'm not counting on Trump doing whatever. Trump has, for me, always been unpredictable, and remains unpredictable

He was predicted, accurately, by many people. He's still predictable, and being predicted, by them. Why not listen to them? They have information, you don't.

He was preferable only in comparison with the certain evil of Clinton.

He was a greater certain evil. Obviously. You made a mistake in that assessment, because you have a blind spot for fascism.

Of course, the states who want a multipolar world have to fight the state who likes to preserve the unipolar world where it rules.

There's more than one of them. And Trump's in command of the baddest military. So settle in for a long fight.
There is also the more significant unipole wannabe involved - the multinational corporations, as a class. So keep an eye on Tillerson.

I see some elements of Trumps program making some sense. In particular, protectionism.

Trump doesn't have a program. You've been listening to his speeches again, amirite?