The two state solution fate

[S.A.M.]

I bet that thoses quote from Arafat and Shukari is Zionist propaganda. Anyway, if Obama decides that the US is Kenya it does not change the law.

What this or that leader says does not change the fact that Palestinians have the right to live on their land. Not so-called Jews from Europe or Russia. You can't have self determination on someone else's homes by constructing parks on their fathers graves.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I bet that thoses quote from Arafat and Shukari is Zionist propaganda. Anyway, if Obama decides that the US is Kenya it does not change the law.

What this or that leader says does not change the fact that Palestinians have the right to live on their land. Not so-called Jews from Europe or Russia. You can't have self determination on someone else's homes by constructing parks on their fathers graves.

And it doesn't change the fact that the Jews have a right to live in their own land either.

In 1947 there were more Arab Immigrants into the Palestine Mandate then there were Jews.

There was more Arab immigration in to the Lands west of the Jordan than there was Jewish.

The Jews owned more of the lands, bought, and paid for, deeded and titled to them than the Arabs, west of the Jordan.

Jews who had lived there for centuries.

The Arabs came looking for work, legally and illegally.

The Jews have lived on that land since 1400 BC.

The Jews are separate ethnically, and religiously from the Arabs who are the interlopers, 638 AD, by invasion, and in the 20tys, 30tys, and 40tys, and the Jews as such have the right to self determination separate from the Arabs.

SAM for all of your crying about the Jews from where ever, they are still Jews, by religion, by Genome, they all carry the Jewish Halotype, in their blood, and DNA.

Yes, they have picked up modifiers, because of the Diaspora, but their basic DNA is still identifiable as Jewish, take their blood and sequence it and it will say Jew.

 

[S.A.M.]

The Arabs are nomads, they live in Arabia. The Palestinians are agriculturists with a history of olive groves [check your bible]. The Jews are not farmers, in fact, they are nomads too. So who is the immigrant?

Palestinians were there before the Jews. Their thousand year old trees are being torn down by the Jews who care nothing for the land. Its the Palestinians who weep for their olive trees, not the Jews who only come to kill and steal.

"Yasmin Khayal stands chained to olive trees in the path
of an Israeli military bulldozer at work expanding the Israeli settlement
of Yakir in violation of international law and cease-fire agreements.
Yasmin was part of a protest to stop the destruction of the orchard
belonging to the Palestinian village of Dir Istya in the occupied West
Bank. For her action, Yasmin spent time in Israeli women's prison"

This is what Americans send money to Israel for.

 

[Vkothii]

But military might would be useless against the threat that looms within its borders. Israel's population of 7.1 million is today divided into 5.4 million Jews and 1.6 million Arabs. But if you include Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, they may already have a slender majority; and given their higher birthrate, the gap will widen quickly.
...In other words, if Israelis cling to the West Bank and Gaza, as many religious Zionists insist, Jews will find themselves a shrinking minority in their own state

I underlined the emotive words in the excerpt, which are obviously aimed at US sympathy; the Jews are threatened by mothers having children - quelle horreur!

 

[S.A.M.]

I underlined the emotive words in the excerpt, which are obviously aimed at US sympathy; the Jews are threatened by mothers having children - horrors!

Thats not only in Israel. They are also threatened by non-European immigration in the US. Since non-Europeans are not likely to be concerned as much about the Holocaust and hence will not give as much importance to Jews. Moreover, they see Jews as white people, not separate from white Americans and this diminishes the role of American Jewry as a minority.

Their primary concerns are Muslims [but of course] and Latinos.

Here is one of the fearmongers

Jews stand to lose far more than any other group of Americans from a policy that brings in millions of immigrants from cultures that range from antipathetic to antithetic to Jews and Israel. Muslim immigrants feel enormous hostility toward Jews and are intent on nullifying Jewish political power in the United States as a step towards destroying Israel.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back404.html

Another one here, influenced by the above

Is the emerging new multicultural American nation good for the Jews? Will a country in which enormous demographic and cultural change, fueled by unceasing large-scale non-European immigration, remain one in which Jewish life will continue to flourish as nowhere else in the history of the Diaspora? In an America in which people of color form the plurality, as has already happened in California, most with little or no historical experience with or knowledge of Jews, will Jewish sensitivities continue to enjoy extraordinarily high levels of deference and will Jewish interests continue to receive special protection? Does it matter that the majority non-European immigrants have no historical experience of the Holocaust or knowledge of the persecution of Jews over the ages and see Jews only as the most privileged and powerful of white Americans? Is it important that Latinos, who know us almost entirely as employers for the menial low-wage cash services they perform for us (such a blowing the leaves from our lawns in Beverly Hills or doing our laundry in Short Hills), will soon form one quarter of the nation’s population? Does it matter that most Latino immigrants have encountered Jews in their formative years principally or only as Christ killers in the context of a religious education in which the changed teachings of Vatican II penetrated barely or not at all? Does it matter that the politics of ethnic succession — colorblind, I recognize — has already resulted in the loss of key Jewish legislators (the brilliant Stephen Solarz of Brooklyn was one of the first of these) and that once Jewish "safe seats" in Congress now are held by Latino representatives?

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/profiles/stephen_steinlight.htm

 

[Buffalo Roam]

The Arabs are nomads, they live in Arabia. The Palestinians are agriculturists with a history of olive groves [check your bible]. The Jews are not farmers, in fact, they are nomads too. So who is the immigrant?

Palestinians were there before the Jews. Their thousand year old trees are being torn down by the Jews who care nothing for the land. Its the Palestinians who weep for their olive trees, not the Jews who only come to kill and steal.

"Yasmin Khayal stands chained to olive trees in the path
of an Israeli military bulldozer at work expanding the Israeli settlement
of Yakir in violation of international law and cease-fire agreements.
Yasmin was part of a protest to stop the destruction of the orchard
belonging to the Palestinian village of Dir Istya in the occupied West
Bank. For her action, Yasmin spent time in Israeli women's prison"

This is what Americans send money to Israel for.

SAM there is no such thing as a Palestinian, show us the Haplotype Palestinian, that is different from the Arabs.

You love to show how the Jews are supposedly not Jews, so now prove that the Palestinians are not Arabs.

Which International Laws?

 

[Vkothii]

Which German Socialist Party??

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM there is no such thing as a Palestinian, show us the Haplotype Palestinian, that is different from the Arabs.

Even if they were 100% Arabs, makes no difference. They are Palestinians. Not Europeans, Russians, Americans, like the Jews. Their religion and ethnicity is irrelevant.

Do you think those with no native American genes should leave the US?

You love to show how the Jews are supposedly not Jews, so now prove that the Palestinians are not Arabs.

Who cares about the mythology of Jews? I don't supprot the right of a Russian/European/American to replace natives based on some fantasy.

Which International Laws?

Right of the indigenous peoples to live on their own land.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Even if they were 100% Arabs, makes no difference. They are Palestinians. Not Europeans, Russians, Americans, like the Jews. Their religion and ethnicity is irrelevant.

Really? and then you can prove that the Arab didn't flood the lands of Palestine by migration and immigration from 1900 to 1947?

There are historical accounts of just that being done.

Do you think those with no native American genes should leave the US?

And just what does that have to do with Palestine?

And define native American genes, as I have researched, the native American genes, are Polynisain and Aisan in origin, and come from migration from Asia, and the Pacific Islands preoples.

Who cares about the mythology of Jews? I don't supprot the right of a Russian/European/American to replace natives based on some fantasy.

Who cares about the mythology of the Arabs, and you.

Right of the indigenous peoples to live on their own land.

Yes, exactly, from the time of Cannan, and the lands owned, titled and deeded to the Jews of Palestine.

The only seperate ethnicity in the Lands of Palestine west of the Jordan is Jewish.

The Muslim Arabs who entered seventh-century Jerusalem found a strong Jewish identity. At that time, "we have evidence that Jews lived in all parts of the country and on both sides of the Jordan, and that they dwelt in both the towns and the villages, practicing both agriculture and various handicrafts"* A number of Jews lived in Lydda and Ramle-which have been identified by modem propaganda and even by more serious documents as historically "purely Arab" towns. "Large and important communities" of Jews lived "in such places as Ascalon, Caesarea and above all Gaza, which the Jews ... had made a kind of capital [when] ... they were excluded from Jerusalem.'"8​

8. Ibid.; also see S.D. Goitein, A Mediterranean Society, 3 vols. (Berkeley, Los Angeles, London, 1971), vol. 2, p. 61 the main synagogue [in Ramle] was the Palestinian."

9. Al-Waqidy, ninth-century Arab historian, recorded a Jewish-settled area in Jericho in the seventh century and "there are other references to Jewish communal life in Jericho as late as the ninth century." Cited by Itzhak Ben-Zvi, The Exiled and the Redeemed (Philadelphia, 1961), p. 146.

The Jews, meanwhile, were plentiful enough so that in 1486 "a distinguished pilgrim" to the Holy Land, the Dean of Mainz Cathedral, Bernhard von Breidenbach, advised that both Hebron's and Jerusalem's Jews "will treat you in full fidelity -- more so than anyone else in those countries of the unbelievers."22

Gilbert, Exile, p. 17.​

 

[S.A.M.]

It doesn't matter if the Palestinians flooded it by immigration, which they didn't, at least not since neolithic times. You live in an immigrant state. Do you have a right to live there?

Or can some recent European/Russian/Asian immigrant come there and kick you out because his relatives 5000 years ago were related to native Americans?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

It doesn't matter if the Palestinians flooded it by immigration, which they didn't, at least not since neolithic times. You live in an immigrant state. Do you have a right to live there?

No SAM not Palestinians, as there is no such thing as a Palestinian.

Arabs, who flooded the Palestine for economic and political reasons:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17166728

Titre du document / Document title
Arab immigration to the sharon plain during the British Mandate period
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
HESS-ASHKENAZI Maayan ;
Résumé / Abstract
Scholars disagree as to how important Arab immigration into Eretz Israel during the Mandate period was for the increase in the Arab population of the country. In any case, it would seem that the influence of such immigration was small when one looks at Arab population growth in the entire area of western Palestine. However, what emerges from figures provided by the Mandate authorities is that from the beginning of the period until its end (1918-1948), there was an appreciable increase in the Arab population of the Sharon Plain; it had tripled, reaching 30,000 on the eve of Israel's War of Independence. When compared to the rate of natural increase of the Arab population in all of Eretz Israel during that period, we find that the population growth of Arabs in the Sharon Plain was higher than the national level of their natural increase. This can be put down to their immigration into that region. The article studies Arab population movement into the Sharon Plain during the Mandate period and concludes that the underlying reason for this phenomenon was the development undergone by the region at that time. This began with the drainage of swamps in the northern Sharon, soon followed by the expansion of Jewish settlement in the region that was based on citriculture, and culminating in the construction of British military bases in the Sharon during World War II. This accelerated development attracted many immigrants to the area, especially Beduins from the Negev, Sinai, and Transjordan, but also laborers from Egypt, Syria, and even from Iraq and the Yemen.

Or can some recent European/Russian/Asian immigrant come there and kick you out because his relatives 5000 years ago were related to native Americans?

And what does this strawman have to do with aything, there is no conflict going on in America.

 

[S.A.M.]

No SAM not Palestinians, as there is no such thing as a Palestinian.

So the US government is wrong? The UN is wrong? Genetics and history is wrong?

Only the Jews are right?

Why would you support Zionist propaganda over your country's position?

Where do your loyalties lie?

And what does this strawman have to do with aything, there is no conflict going on in America.

There was no conflict in Palestine till the Jews descended from Europe either. But you live in an immigrant state. Do you have a right to live there? Why don't the white settlers go back where they came from? How can you occupy other people's land for hundreds of years when you support the Jews right to "return" after thousands? Why don't you return to your land? By your own logic, its not your land, it never will be, even if you stay there for 2000 years. Shouldn't you go back to Poland or wherever it is your immigrant family came from?

 

[nirakar]

The major recent migration into Palestine by Arabs story is a false story put out there by propagandists.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

The major recent migration into Palestine by Arabs story is a false story put out there by propagandists.

Citation please.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

So the US government is wrong? The UN is wrong? Genetics and history is wrong?

Only the Jews are right?

Why would you support Zionist propaganda over your country's position?

Because there is no such thing as a Palestinain, there are Arabs of Palestine, but no Palestinians.

Where do your loyalties lie?

With the Truth.

There was no conflict in Palestine till the Jews descended from Europe either. But you live in an immigrant state. Do you have a right to live there? Why don't the white settlers go back where they came from? How can you occupy other people's land for hundreds of years when you support the Jews right to "return" after thousands? Why don't you return to your land? By your own logic, its not your land, it never will be, even if you stay there for 2000 years. Shouldn't you go back to Poland or wherever it is your immigrant family came from?

There was nothing to arouse the Greed of the Arab until the Jews from Europe returned to יִשְׂרָאֵל‎, Yisra'el.

The Jews spread the citriculture far beyond the Galilee and opened up a large area to farming, they also brought industry and business learned in Europe with them.

 

[ElectricFetus]

The Jews spread the citriculture far beyond the Galilee and opened up a large area to farming, they also brought industry and business learned in Europe with them.

Yeah it was a hell hole before! Suddenly the Arabs are like "we want some of that Jew gold!"

But honestly I don't think arguing about the establishment of Israel is going to go anywhere, it never ending with both sides entrenched. Israel exist now, everyone needs to accept it, we simply can't kick these people out and disbane their nation. The Palestinians exist as well and since no one will take them in as full citizens with all rights they deserve a nation that will. Palestinians should have a nation, now it not our fault they elect hate filled mad men, and Israel could do more to help stabilized Palestine, like not invade or oppressing them and feeding the very cycles of hate that cause terrorism against them. Ideally Jordon could take them up and establish a democracy with Palestinians having majority rule, but they don't want that anymore than israel does.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yeah it was a hell hole before! Suddenly the Arabs are like "we want some of that Jew gold!"

But honestly I don't think arguing about the establishment of Israel is going to go anywhere, it never ending with both sides entrenched. Israel exist now, everyone needs to accept it, we simply can't kick these people out and disbane their nation. The Palestinians exist as well and since no one will take them in as full citizens with all rights they deserve a nation that will. Palestinians should have a nation, now it not our fault they elect hate filled mad men, and Israel could do more to help stabilized Palestine, like not invade or oppressing them and feeding the very cycles of hate that cause terrorism against them. Ideally Jordon could take them up and establish a democracy with Palestinians having majority rule, but they don't want that anymore than israel does.

I have no problem with a Palestinian State, like you I agree that Israel became fact, and is now a Established Fact, and there is no way to return to the pre 1948 world.

The people that you need to convince are SAM, nirakar, pjdude, Vkothii,........

I have never objected to the Idea of a State of Palestine, as I have pointed out time and again, there would now be a State of Palestine except for Arab actions in 1948.

It was the Arabs who rejected U.N. 181 as a General Council Resolution with no fact in law, and went to war to destroy the State of Israel even as it was announced to the World.

As a fact in reality today, Israel is not going to accept the Palestinians into it's State, and there isn't enough land space available for them to live in Israel or the West Bank and Gaza.

The West Bank and Gaza should be a Palestinian State, but as to the rest of the so called Palestinian, they need to be settled into the land in which they were born, they should be given citizenship and equal rights to the Arab State in which they now reside, as should have been done 60 years ago.

It is and always has been the Arabs who were responsible for solving the refugee problems in their own lands.

Israel took in the Refugees from the Arab world, when the Arabs ran the Jews out of Arab State, so to it should be the Arab States who like the State of Israel who should be responsible for the resettlement of the Refugees in their states.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah it was a hell hole before! Suddenly the Arabs are like "we want some of that Jew gold!"

But honestly I don't think arguing about the establishment of Israel is going to go anywhere, it never ending with both sides entrenched. Israel exist now, everyone needs to accept it, we simply can't kick these people out and disbane their nation. The Palestinians exist as well and since no one will take them in as full citizens with all rights they deserve a nation that will. Palestinians should have a nation, now it not our fault they elect hate filled mad men, and Israel could do more to help stabilized Palestine, like not invade or oppressing them and feeding the very cycles of hate that cause terrorism against them. Ideally Jordon could take them up and establish a democracy with Palestinians having majority rule, but they don't want that anymore than israel does.

Slavery and apartheid lasted longer than Israel. The state is racist and supporting its right to "exist" as an apartheid state is wrong.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Slavery and apartheid lasted longer than Israel. The state is racist and supporting its right to "exist" as an apartheid state is wrong.

Well if we could get Palestine up to function as a state we woun't have an apartheid problem now will we.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well if we could get Palestine up to function as a state we woun't have an apartheid problem now will we.

Like the bantustans of South Africa? Or the reservations of USA? Or the aboriginal reserves of Australia? Or India under the British?

You can't have a functional state under occupation. Thats why its called an occupation. You don't blame the occupied for not adjusting to oppression. You hold the oppressors accountable for their acts.

When elected representatives are marked terrorists and the people cut off from food, water and medical assistance, there is no likelihood of a stable society. Especially when they are sealed tight as a drum from land, air and sea. Their imports controlled and exports banned.

Some 1,700 dunams of land in the northern part of Efrat were declared state land last week, paving the way for the West Bank settlement to start the process of seeking government approval to build there.

The Civil Administration issued the declaration after rejecting eight appeals by Palestinians against the move. A ninth appeal was accepted, and the land covered by this appeal was consequently removed from Efrat's jurisdiction.

Especially when the oppressors spread like cancer over the society

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064503.html