The Worst Argument in History

[andbna]

Possibly the funniest thing I'v watched on YouTube (not that I have seen anything very funny on it, but a record is a record.)

Maybe I am really tired but the argument in the video, I though, was an ad hominem fallacy? Perhaps with a touch of ad populum sprinkled on top?

Yep, the narrator had Ad Hominem up her ***. Plus, some ad populum, appeal to fear, ad consequentiam, falty generalization, association fallacy, and there was even a few WW2 Nazi pictures in there so reductio ad hitlerum too (though just another version of association.) Wow! Thats allot of fallacys in 2 minuts.

Not to mention the funniest part is the narrator equates reason itself to violence, and thus the if the argument was correct we would have to discard logic all together. :m:

-Andrew

 

[audible]

I just puzzled as to why the narrator, is comparing to very reasonable men with a Catholic and a Lutheran Christian regime, surely that’s counter productive.

 

[one_raven]

That's not the case for the omniscient omnipotent God because most people still think God can be both omniscient omnipotent while clearly that is logically impossible.

That's exactly what I am talking about.
First of all, show me where in The Bible that it says God is Omniscient and Omnipotent.
After you do that, consider this...

The idea that God can be both Omniscient and Omnipotent is most certainly not illogical or unreasonable.

Omniscient means all-knowing.
Omnipotent means all-powerful.

A being that has the power to do anything that is possible and knows the answer to every question that it is possible to answer to can be considered omnipotent and omniscient.
This being does not necessarily have to have the ability to see into the future.

Perhaps the future is unknown because it is unknowable... Unknowable by anyone.

If God designed the universe, he would have designed the natural laws the surround us - the laws of physics.
Paradoxes, by very design, are impossible.
Undermine cause and effect, and the system becomes unstable.

If there is a "God" that designed this system, he very well could have designed it so the future can not be known nor entirely predictable - he could have built free-will into the design.

Plus, even if he DID have the ability to see into the future, he could simply choose not to.

Even if God does exist, what makes humans so arrogant to think that he would give a shit about the absurdly petty troubles and wishes of ANY of us, nevermind ALL of us.
If he cared even in the least about us, what would compel him to intervene in any way, nevermind orchestrate every least detail of everone's lives?
Even if he cared enough to intervene on some level, what makes us say that he would want life to be easy and happy for all?

If there is such thing as heaven, shangri-la, paradise, nibbana, etc, existence there, by account of all the major religions, is without trouble, difficulty, pain, strife - for eternity.
Your silly little problems encountered here (most of them self-created) in the mere 70 years or so on earth would be less than a hangnail compared to eternity in paradise.
Besides, haven't you ever heard that difficulty builds character?

Perhaps pain is a fair price to pay for free-will.
I think it is.
If I didn't, I would simply kill myself and be done with it.

If he IS omnipotent, he has the power to turn his back if he wishes.

The ability to control all does not imply the necessity or obligation to do so.
Abstention from interference does not necessarily imply malevolence.

Your prseumptions that support your view are no different than the presumptions of theists that support their view - or conservatives - or liberals - or satanists...
They are conveinent explanations that allow them to continue believing as they do.

 

[Celpha Fiael]

The idea that God can be both Omniscient and Omnipotent is most certainly not illogical or unreasonable.

Omniscient means all-knowing.
Omnipotent means all-powerful.

A being that has the power to do anything that is possible and knows the answer to every question that it is possible to answer to can be considered omnipotent and omniscient.
This being does not necessarily have to have the ability to see into the future.

Perhaps the future is unknown because it is unknowable... Unknowable by anyone.

I don't have a problem with your explanation until right here. That's a nice way to kind of jump out of the paradox, but basically what your saying is that God cannot say anything of the future. By definition, this makes him not omniscient anymore. I mean, in this picture you've painted, human meteorologists are more omniscient than God is!

 

[Nasor]

A being that has the power to do anything that is possible and knows the answer to every question that it is possible to answer to can be considered omnipotent and omniscient.
This being does not necessarily have to have the ability to see into the future.

Perhaps the future is unknown because it is unknowable... Unknowable by anyone.

Maybe, it depends on how you define "omniscient" I suppose. But I'm pretty sure that the bible rather explicitly says that the Christian god does know the future. For example, I believe in the bible god tells John the Baptist that he knew everything about him before he was even conceived. I think there are some other things like that, although I can’t recall them off the top of my head.

 

[one_raven]

but basically what your saying is that God cannot say anything of the future.


No, that's not exactly what I am saying.
I'm saying that with enough knowledge you can predict probabilities.
If you know a person's nature well enough, you can predict their actions, and you will most often be correct.
The existance of free-will, however, makes it impossible to predict every aspect of the future - as soon as one person varies the least bit from their nature (thanks to free-will) that has the potential to change everything - The Butterfly Effect.
Yes, God can predict the weather.
But he can't know everything in store for the future, because he designed the system that way - be built free-will into it.

By definition, this makes him not omniscient anymore. I mean, in this picture you've painted, human meteorologists are more omniscient than God is!

By whose definition?
He still knows everything there is to know.
You are placing false restrictions on omniscient.
It is like placing false restrictions on omnipotent, by saying God is not omnipotent because he can't make a square circle (or some other absurd paradox).
An omnipotent being would be powerful enough to do anything that can be done.

 

[Celpha Fiael]

But we've already agreed on something that he does not know. This makes him not omniscient, just as your example makes him not omnipotent; the fact that we can put conceptual restrictions on these concepts attests to their inconsistencies to begin with and doesn't excuse it from contradictions.

 

[Michael]

one_raven,

Omniscient means all-knowing.
Omnipotent means all-powerful.

Your definition of "all-knowing" seems more akin to a large hard-drive. That's said, the only thing that contains all information about the present Universe is the Universe.

An all-powerful God should be able to do anything we can do ... right?

Can God forget something? Can God be confused by something? Can God be surprised? Can God learn a new dance style?

Can God make a mistake? Use the wrong word? Think a new thought?

Is God rational?

Can God make a round square?

Michael

PS: the all knowing God that most people believe in knows the future - hence Revelations. Most people do not split hairs over this - they simply say God knows all period fullstop.

 

[Michael]

RE round square,

I think it's a good question to ponder. The answer is of course no. But, again, I personally have heard many theists answer YES. So, it's a good starting point.

Michael

 

[one_raven]

But we've already agreed on something that he does not know. This makes him not omniscient, just as your example makes him not omnipotent; the fact that we can put conceptual restrictions on these concepts attests to their inconsistencies to begin with and doesn't excuse it from contradictions.

Wrong.

Something can not "exist" and "not exist" at the same time.
Allowing paradox would make the system impossible - it would collapse.
God would not have designed a system that allows paradox, as it would be unstable.
If the system were to allow paradox to exist, the system itself could not exist.

As we agreed, omniscient is all knowing - omnipotent is all-powerful.

All powerful could not include doing the impossible - because that would be a paradox.

If the system was designed with free-will as part and parcel to the system, it could not include absolute knowledge of the future as part of "All" because absolute knowledge of the future simply does not exist - it would be a paradox.

It's really quite simple.

Round square is simply meaningless.

 

[Michael]

one_raven

I'm still curious:
Can God forget something, be confused, be surprised, learn a new dance style, make a mistake, use the wrong word, think a new thought?

Is God a rational being?

Does God have the "power" to do these things or exist in these states (state of surprise) and yet contain all knowledge?

Michael

 

[Celpha Fiael]

Wrong.

Something can not "exist" and "not exist" at the same time.
Allowing paradox would make the system impossible - it would collapse.
God would not have designed a system that allows paradox, as it would be unstable.
If the system were to allow paradox to exist, the system itself could not exist.

As we agreed, omniscient is all knowing - omnipotent is all-powerful.

All powerful could not include doing the impossible - because that would be a paradox.

If the system was designed with free-will as part and parcel to the system, it could not include absolute knowledge of the future as part of "All" because absolute knowledge of the future simply does not exist - it would be a paradox.

It's really quite simple.

Round square is simply meaningless.

I fully understand what you are saying and agree concerning the paradoxes. The unfortunate aspect about omniscience and omnipotence is that they have built-in paradoxes; respectively and when placed along side one another. We have noted several paradoxes above and all I've really gathered as a response from you aside from the implications of it is "wrong." It really isn't quite simple; can God create something in which he cannot do?

Apparently you've shown that not only can he, but he has already done so; God has created the idea of future knowledge (indeed it is available to some in certain respects like my earlier example of meteorologists who may be relying on predicted probabilities, but it is still information concerning what hasn't happened yet; i.e. "the hurricane will hit the shores of Florida at 10:30 pm tomorrow night"), yet cannot use or know it himself. In this paradox alone, we see omnipotence and omniscience crumbling under the weight of their over-ambitious definitions and I fail to see how it is quite simple at all, or easily resolved for that matter.

An earlier point was made that I find amusingly accurate though. If God can not see into the future, then this cannot be the Judeo-Christian God, as there are several verses proclaiming how he knows the details of our days before we are born, knew our names before we were born, etc.

 

[one_raven]

Apparently you've shown that not only can he, but he has already done so; God has created the idea of future knowledge (indeed it is available to some in certain respects like my earlier example of meteorologists who may be relying on predicted probabilities, but it is still information concerning what hasn't happened yet; i.e. "the hurricane will hit the shores of Florida at 10:30 pm tomorrow night"), yet cannot use or know it himself. In this paradox alone, we see omnipotence and omniscience crumbling under the weight of their over-ambitious definitions and I fail to see how it is quite simple at all, or easily resolved for that matter.

An earlier point was made that I find amusingly accurate though. If God can not see into the future, then this cannot be the Judeo-Christian God, as there are several verses proclaiming how he knows the details of our days before we are born, knew our names before we were born, etc.

What you seem to misunderstand about my position (please correct me if I am wrong) is that I am not saying that God can not predict the future.
As I pointed out, with enough information, anyone can predict the future - to a certain extent.
The precice border of what that extent is, is the line of free will.
God can most certainly tell if it will rain tomorrow.
He will also be able to tell if it will be raining in Boise Idaho, on June 22, 3124 - with the caveat that someone's free will will not change that outcome.

Leave God out of this for a second - let's consider a computer...
A computer that has has been fed all the equations, and all the available variables will be able to predict, with extraordinarily high probability, not only if it will rain tomorrow, but many other aspects of life - even what the stock market will do.

That computer, knowing what socks I am most comfortable in, knowing my past behavirs, knowing my personality and what drives me, knowing how much laundry I have done, knowing what the weather will be and knowing what clean sock are sitting at the top of the basket I keep clean socks in, will most likely be able to predict what pair of socks I will wear tomorrow.
I may, however, have a dream that reminds me of my wedding, and wake up wanting to wear the socks I wore that day - even though it goes against my nature and all the variables - if we concede that free will exists, for the sake of this argument, then that is entirely within the realm of possibility.

This omniscient being will be able to predict much of what I do - as humans are creatures of habit and easy to predict. Hell, I can predict most of what people I know will do, and I'm not even close to omniscient.

However, the existence of free will undermines the concept of absolute knowledge of the future.

The socks I wore on my wedding day were silly, brightly colored, striped socks.
Let's say someone in an elevator notices my socks tomorrow and makes a comment.
The two of us have a conversation (when we otherwise would have essentially ignored each other).
The conversation leads to lunch.
We get to know each other.
We become friends.
My entire future has just changed because I made a new friend because I exercised my power of free will and wore silly socks, against my nature, and that change in my future has widespread effects like a ripple in a pond that effects every other ripple in the pond.
My wearing silly socks that day - which could not have been predicted - could concievably spell life or death for people I have never met.

Absolute pre-destination or absolute foreknowledge is impossible in a system with free-will.
Omnipotent does not imply the power to do what is impossible - regardless of what some people claim or believe.

 

[Celpha Fiael]

Thank you for clarifying to me, I see what I was missing now and agree with a lot of what you said. My interest is that this definition of a God excludes the Judeo-Christian God as a qualified candidate, as he, according to his holy book, does know the future, even our acts of free will. Your thoughts?

 

[one_raven]

My interest is that this definition of a God excludes the Judeo-Christian God as a qualified candidate, as he, according to his holy book, does know the future, even our acts of free will. Your thoughts?

I concede that it may.
I haven't read anything in the Bible that directly contradicts what I say, however.
I have certainly met some Christians that contradict it with their words.

I would be very interested in reading some scripture that you think contradicts this, and claims that Abraham's Gods knows all that will come to pass.

I have read things like, "He knows all the hairs on your head" and other things that imply his omniscience - but I have not seen where it states that the future is pre-destined and he knows it all.

If you (or anyone) could offer up some verses, I would appreciate it.

 

[Photizo]

Thank you for clarifying to me, I see what I was missing now and agree with a lot of what you said.

Of course you do...you always did...now rise, Image of God!

 

[Celpha Fiael]

Of course you do...you always did...now rise, Image of God!

For goodness sake, what is Jesus doing to that boy?!


...hmm...it appears Photizo never is confused or ever misunderstands anyone. It also appears that his ego is so large, that no matter who you are actually addressing in a thread, your post inevitably flies into his atmosphere, which elicits a necessary and relevant response from him. Let's keep an eye out for this, everyone.

And how ironic it is that my humility has been used (poorly) to bite me in the ass by a person who would most likely claim that his religion has a monopoly on humility, as it is strictly a Christian virtue. I grow weary of your meaningless and noncontributory remarks; do you honestly have nothing better to do than to get on a message board and not engage in the edifying dialogue within, but instead continue your smear campaign against one person you don't agree with? Sounds very Christian of you, I'm sure Jesus is so proud.

 

[Michael]

I was thinking shit is the big J getting a big BJ!

Anyway, RE knowing all


Can God forget something, be confused, be surprised, learn a new dance style, make a mistake, use the wrong word, think a new thought?

If not then God can not do "anything" even things we humans can do and is not all powerful in the sense "can do anything humans can do. If God can exist in such states then God does not always exist in a state of all knowing.

If God is always in a state of all knowing then God is not a rational being because rationality requires thinking, which God can not do. God is limited to only knowing all.

If God can not do the illogical then God is not all powerful in the sense that God`s "power" is bound within the limits of human logic.

So God is limited both by logic (not all but shall we say "very" powerful) and by its state of knowing all present information and like humans is bound by time in this regards.

This God becomes less and less the image of person with all power and all knowledge that most theists think of and is in my mind more the image of a large storage harddrive. Most theists think of a "personality" that they pray to God, not an unchanging harddrive recording all info. Its as if God is a PC running the human-universe program and recording all events). Why would such a thing demand supplication? Seems an odd thing for a harddrive to demand.

MII


As to knowing future events God gave Revelations.

 

[Celpha Fiael]

I know I didn't think stuff like that was allowed on this board.

One_Raven,

I delved into some of my past and located a couple verses for your consideration:

Then the LORD said to him, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. (Gen 15:13,14)

this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations (Matt 24:14)

[God] declares the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10)

...for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. (Matthew 6:8)

For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. (Jeremiah 29:11)

^-- A Christian favorite for sure

This is saying nothing of all the prophecies that saturate the scriptures, which would require a knowledge of the future by definition.

Hope these have helped.

 

[draqon]

there are no best or worst arguments.