Though shalt not kill. Would you do so for your God?

@NM --

see..i believe this to be true.he gave us the ability to choose. i don't believe he would want us to be slaves,he gave us the ability to choose,why would he want to take it away?

I didn't ask why, I asked how. How would knowing whether god exists make us slaves? If god does exist then it would seem to me, at least from what the bible relates, that we're already slaves it's just that we don't know it yet. How would knowing change that in the least?

but i also believe in human nature and the easier path of 'doing as your told' (most ppl..not all)
(i think i may be confusing the issue..so many thoughts trying to be heard all at once..)

By that logic a large number of people on this planet are already slaves, so what would god ruin by revealing himself?

you would make a good believer Arioch..(at least in my opinion..not religions)

I'll take that as a complement.
 
but most ppl in religion ARE like that..they run to their pastors for every little problem in their lives for the pastor can tell them what to do, (since he is supposed to speak for God..)
So the solution you put forward is not working. Why would God choose to hide if it is not working? People find ways to avoid free will and responsibility regardless.

look at this and keep the idea of 'which is the right religion' in mind..why is it so important to find the 'right' religion?
why can't ppl take responsibility for their own beliefs?
why does there have to be a 'right 'religion?
This seems like a separate issue. I simply find the idea that God is hiding so that people don't act like slaves to not work. And, again, it means that for believers, who do believe in God, only their doubt keeps them from being slaves. This makes no sense. It certainly would not make sense for God to send down a Bible (or Koran, etc.), since this would be a threat to humans' autonomy. Let alone sending down a Jesus or Muhammed.
 
@NM --
I didn't ask why, I asked how. How would knowing whether god exists make us slaves? If god does exist then it would seem to me, at least from what the bible relates, that we're already slaves it's just that we don't know it yet. How would knowing change that in the least?
because religion teaches obey or go to hell, and ppl buy into that concept
both atheist and theist.

the bible was cannonized to (not just to) establish authority of the church..unfortunatly being human they let some verses slip through that gives us clues that this was not meant to be.

By that logic a large number of people on this planet are already slaves, so what would god ruin by revealing himself?

because he doesn't want us to be slaves.

I'll take that as a complement.
it was meant as one..

---

So the solution you put forward is not working. Why would God choose to hide if it is not working? People find ways to avoid free will and responsibility regardless.
true...

It certainly would not make sense for God to send down a Bible (or Koran, etc.), since this would be a threat to humans' autonomy. Let alone sending down a Jesus or Muhammed.

keep in mind i am only speculating, i don't have the answers..

but if he didn't want us to be slaves and still cared enough to want to give us good advice, he would have to be subtle..sending Jesus and Mohammed in human form would be enough to establish a choice, we should choose to follow them not because they were sent from God, but because they are right.

Arioch, where/who said that it should not matter who says it,but what matters is the content of what is said? (i think i am seriously paraphrasing you)
 
keep in mind i am only speculating, i don't have the answers..
Oh, OK. I thought it was more of a belief you had developed.

but if he didn't want us to be slaves and still cared enough to want to give us good advice, he would have to be subtle..sending Jesus and Mohammed in human form would be enough to establish a choice, we should choose to follow them not because they were sent from God, but because they are right.
Maybe in their lifetimes, but after that...I mean, now they basically are God - Muhammed isn't, but in practical terms, there is little difference: total authority.

If we have free will, then our free will needs to be really tested. It seems like God is afraid we will abnegate our free will if we know there is a God and or if we have contact with God. Seems like free will is fundamentally flawed. Further, that makes Heaven very problematic. And then also, poor Muhammed, poor Jesus, poor Mary, poor all the saints, etc. They had contact and, it seems, often instructions.

Also God could demonstrate his or her existence but not give out rules. This would leave people to figure out what is good and bad. Sending down books and people who give out rules, does the opposite, leaves existence potentially in doubt, but makes it easier to be slaves.

That just doesn't work for me.
 
@NM --

Thanks for the complement but you still haven't answered my question. How would knowledge of the existence of god make us slaves?
 
Oh, OK. I thought it was more of a belief you had developed.
tomatoe,tomotoe..(yea, you try..;))
more like a disclaimer saying you don't have to take my word for it.

If we have free will, then our free will needs to be really tested. It seems like God is afraid we will abnegate our free will if we know there is a God and or if we have contact with God.
had to look that word up..
yes..i would argue a definition of 'contact' but yes..this is what i am saying..

Seems like free will is fundamentally flawed. Further, that makes Heaven very problematic. And then also, poor Muhammed, poor Jesus, poor Mary, poor all the saints, etc.
how so problematic?
and why Poor ppl?

They had contact and, it seems, often instructions.
this just backs up my supposition that God cares.(he had to find a way to share with us and still let us have our free will.)

Also God could demonstrate his or her existence but not give out rules. This would leave people to figure out what is good and bad. Sending down books and people who give out rules, does the opposite, leaves existence potentially in doubt, but makes it easier to be slaves.
not sure if i am understanding this right..
i can only argue with the 'sending' part, we are unsure as to whether it was God who set the rules in the bible. (unsure used in the sense of we can only believe and not know.)

That just doesn't work for me.
thats cool..that is the beauty of this, you are allowed to disagree..
 
how so problematic?
and why Poor ppl?
this just backs up my supposition that God cares.(he had to find a way to share with us and still let us have our free will.)
He cared and then threatened their free will with contact. Doesn't make sense.

not sure if i am understanding this right..
i can only argue with the 'sending' part, we are unsure as to whether it was God who set the rules in the bible. (unsure used in the sense of we can only believe and not know.)
I would say that if your belief is right, about why God hides, then it would make no sense to send the bibles. They would be threats to our freedom. If you are willing to accept that conclusion, fine.

thats cool..that is the beauty of this, you are allowed to disagree..
Sure, I didn't think you were trying to stop me or could. However I don't see you explaining how it works.

If direct contact from God makes us slaves, and God does not want this, then God either erred in sending Bibles and contacting some individuals, and making any heaven where we would have contact with God
or he did not do those things and Heaven is not with God.

And really seeking God should not be a goal. I mean, it is going against God's plan which includes the separation.
 
Then you are very optimistic!

It seems that you believe that everyone is part and parcel of God and that God wants every living being to be happy and that there is no eternal damnation.
That's optimistic!

Most religions disagree with you on this, of course.

I don't see what that has to do with the notion that god requires the use of people to achieve his goals or the sun has a requirement of solar powered torches in order to make its self visible.

Does God ever use people to achieve His goals?

Is a guru someone who is used by God to achieve His goals?

If an angry Muslim attacks you for being a kafir: How do you know it is not God using this angry Muslim to achieve His goal?

And if you believe He is: Shouldn't you surrender to the Muslim then, letting him kill you? And if this angry Muslim kills your family and friends but spares you, should you not refrain from reporting him to the authorities? He has done no wrong, has he?


No, the issue of killing in the name of God is unique and has no adequate analogy in the material world.

The analogy is how the discussion becomes meaningless unless we assign established categories. For instance a discussion of "Does Colonialism extend cultural tropes" only becomes meaningful when we start citing actual colonial powers : eg French, British, or even Tongian if you want to distinguish colonialism from mere immigration or whatever.

As far as theism is concerned, is has not been established, objectively, which religion is the right one.
This is why no clear categorization is possible, so far.


Psychological manipulation is again not the same thing as having one's ideas challenged.

The line between the two is not clear.


And then the ordinary shunning and isolating of those who do not seem to fit in even though they have not overtly broken any rules. It is very violent.

So we have gone from "what if a theist demands my land?" to "what if a theist ignores me?"

It is sometimes said that social isolation is the worst punishment for a person.
Isolation takes on even more important implications in religious settings.

Religious communities threaten their members and newcomers with excommunication. Many people who do not seem to fit in even though they have not overtly broken any rules, are shunned and isolated by their fellow religionists, which often leads to the shunned person leaving on their own as the situation becomes unbearable, without there being any official act of expulsion.

Being shunned by one's religious fellows effectively means that one's chances to ever come to God lessen dramatically.

You don't think this is violent?



Killing in the name of god (as opposed to killing in the name of occupational duty) is as unique as illuminating the sun with a solar powered torch (ie what to speak of both having no requirement for it, both empower it) or jumping off a cliff because some one told to you (performed by easily impressionable persons who are not too sharp)

When theists kill in the name of God: is this not their occupational duty?
 
He cared and then threatened their free will with contact. Doesn't make sense.
threatened?

I would say that if your belief is right, about why God hides, then it would make no sense to send the bibles. They would be threats to our freedom. If you are willing to accept that conclusion, fine.
the bible is mans attempt to share God.
from ppl who have a clue as to who/what God is..(maybe the coke bottle and isolated tribe story can be applied..but as you may see, my mind is not cooperating right now..)

If direct contact from God makes us slaves, and God does not want this, then God .. erred in .. contacting some individuals,
maybe..but free will..if you were God and seen your ppl heading towards a cliff and the choice was to reveal yourself to prevent them from going over the edge at risk of them becoming placent and dependant on you,how would you do it?
As subtly as possible,but the ppl would still warp your intention..

and making any heaven where we would have contact with God
or he did not do those things and Heaven is not with God.
heaven is different,because we would not have our mortal concerns anymore, and as mortals we cannot imagine what it would be like without mortal concerns(or what newer concerns we would have)

And really seeking God should not be a goal. I mean, it is going against God's plan which includes the separation.
seeking knowledge and wisdom should be the goal, some need God as an excuse to seek knowledge and wisdom..
 
I have to agree with Signal's problem with this idea. This would mean that people who right now believe in God are closer to being slaves than people who do not believe in God. Especially if the God they believe in has written scripture with a lot of rules. The OT comes to mind.

Your idea would mean that their doubt is a good thing.


I think the problem with this kind of thinking stems from the idea that
''God'' is not ONE being with many different aspects, but many different beings with aspects that differ according to each individual/group/ etc..


jan.
 
@NM --

If you can't explain it then why do you postulate that this knowledge would somehow turn us into slaves?
 
@NM --

If you can't explain it then why do you postulate that this knowledge would somehow turn us into slaves?

cause i can see how ppl do not want to 'think for themselves' and default to 'do as your told'. If the ultimate authority was to make himself known beyond a shadow of a doubt,then alot of ppl would think they had no choice but to obey..(see signals comment awhile back..)
 
I think the problem with this kind of thinking stems from the idea that
''God'' is not ONE being with many different aspects, but many different beings with aspects that differ according to each individual/group/ etc..
NM's hypothesis is not especially supported by this.

And... do you think God is hiding from us because he is concerned if we knew he or she existed we would become slaves?
 
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threatened?
By contacting them, making his or her existence clear and giving in many cases instructions, he put their non-slaveness in jeopardy.
the bible is mans attempt to share God.
from ppl who have a clue as to who/what God is..(maybe the coke bottle and isolated tribe story can be applied..but as you may see, my mind is not cooperating right now..)
OK, but you did just go against what perhaps a majority of Christians believe.
maybe..but free will..if you were God and seen your ppl heading towards a cliff and the choice was to reveal yourself to prevent them from going over the edge at risk of them becoming placent and dependant on you,how would you do it?
I wouldn't let my kid fall off a cliff. I would intervene, despite how this might affect their autonomy. If they ran toward it a few times, I would likely keep them away from cliffs and or get rather pissed off at them - this might wake up some instincts towards self-preservation. Over time with my kids, I can move back as they integrate the lessons.
As subtly as possible,but the ppl would still warp your intention..
Yeah, but as adults, my kids can call me, hear my voice, or come over and get a hug and some advice, if they want. Don't you yearn to be hugged by God?
I think many theists go with the assumption, things are as they should be, and build rationally from there. What if things are not as they should be and all these theists are contributing to the problems of the separation with God as if this is the way things are supposed to be.

Just like abused children do.


heaven is different,because we would not have our mortal concerns anymore, and as mortals we cannot imagine what it would be like without mortal concerns(or what newer concerns we would have)
It might be different, it might not.

seeking knowledge and wisdom should be the goal, some need God as an excuse to seek knowledge and wisdom..
This doesn't really respond to the issue I raised.
 
Yeah, but as adults,...........

this is assuming we are adults in Gods eyes...

i often contemplate that as a society, in our early history we were just babies,as history progresses we grow up..i am not sure where we are today but if i had to guess i would say we just got out of our teen years..we are young adults trying to make a life by making rules and enforcing them, still unaware of how we do not conform to the rules we are creating..
IOW we can see the problems and have a desire to fix them, but due to lack of experience we are still learning what works and what doesn't.
 
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