Time Travel is Science Fiction

[paddoboy]

Paddoboy's calling it a "sum over histories," especially in this thread, made me think he might be talking about some thing else as how to calculate cross sections is not much on thread, but if history were involved it would be.

Yep, I called it "Sum Over Histories" because that's what I believed it to be. If I'm wrong, [and I very well could be as I know very little re quantum mechanics] then I am wrong.
Please go ahead and correct me and show what exactly I am referring to.

http://muchomas.lassp.cornell.edu/8.04/Lecs/lec_FeynmanDiagrams/node3.html

 

[OnlyMe]

Not in my opinion, otherwise I wouldn't state it.

Your statement was not in the form of opinion, it was stated as an absolute, claiming in effect that everyone accepts your definition as an accurate definition of time-travel. Since I and others have clearly stated other wise, it was and is a false statement.

You do know the difference between a statement of opinion and a statement of fact, so own up to the error.

 

[paddoboy]

Your statement was not in the form of opinion, it was stated as an absolute, claiming in effect that everyone accepts your definition as an accurate definition of time-travel. Since I and others have clearly stated other wise, it was and is a false statement.

You do know the difference between a statement of opinion and a statement of fact, so own up to the error.

It's my opinion that time dilation is viewed as time travel. I see that view being held by the majority of links references I have read also. Those are facts.

 

[OnlyMe]

It's my opinion that time dilation is viewed as time travel. I see that view being held by the majority of links references I have read also. Those are facts.

But not by everyone, including me. Retraction accepted.

 

[river]

Pad

What is time dilation ?

 

[paddoboy]

But not by everyone, including me. Retraction accepted.

Whatever.

 

[paddoboy]

Pad

What is time dilation ?

Trolling again riv???
You tell me...what is time dilation...or perhaps if you are able to read, you might find it already mentioned in one of my many posts over these 60 pages.
best of luck.

 

[river]

Trolling again riv???
You tell me...what is time dilation...or perhaps if you are able to read, you might find it already mentioned in one of my many posts over these 60 pages.
best of luck.

first what page #

further since you have to refer to pages which you don't numerate , you really don't know yourself

hence this " best of luck " attitude

 

[paddoboy]

Not in my opinion, otherwise I wouldn't state it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#Time_travel_to_the_future_in_physics
Time travel to the future in physics[edit]

Twin paradox diagram
There are various ways in which a person could "travel into the future" in a limited sense: the person could set things up so that in a small amount of his own subjective time, a large amount of subjective time has passed for other people on Earth. For example, an observer might take a trip away from the Earth and back at relativistic velocities, with the trip only lasting a few years according to the observer's own clocks, and return to find that thousands of years had passed on Earth. It should be noted, though, that according to relativity there is no objective answer to the question of how much time "really" passed during the trip; it would be equally valid to say that the trip had lasted only a few years or that the trip had lasted thousands of years, depending on the choice of reference frame.

This form of "travel into the future" is theoretically allowed (and has been demonstrated at very small time scales) using the following methods:[30]

• Using velocity-based time dilation under the theory of special relativity, for instance:
  • Traveling at almost the speed of light to a distant star, then slowing down, turning around, and traveling at almost the speed of light back to Earth[59] (see the Twin paradox)
• Using gravitational time dilation under the theory of general relativity, for instance:
  • Residing inside of a hollow, high-mass object;
  • Residing just outside of the event horizon of a black hole, or sufficiently near an object whose mass or density causes the gravitational time dilation near it to be larger than the time dilation factor on Earth.
• then it says.....
• Additionally, it might be possible to see the distant future of the Earth using methods which do not involve relativity at all, although it is even more debatable whether these should be deemed a form of "time travel":
  • """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
• Now I realise this is only WIKI, but Thorne expresses the same Ideas, as does Carroll.
• And no I didn't contribute to the WIKI article and in fact never have.
• So please, don't say its false when it is not false in the eyes of many professionals, and is the view of mainstream in general, from what I have read, and the many additions from the many professors that tashja has been so good to obtain for us.

Damn it...I'll add Kip Thorne's view again....probably the world authority on gravitation/BH's/time travel and such......

"""''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
http://plus.maths.org/content/time-travel-allowed

Is time travel allowed?
by Kip Thorne:

In brief: The laws of physics allow members of an exceedingly advanced civilisation to travel forward in time as fast as they might wish. Backward time travel is another matter; we do not know whether it is allowed by the laws of physics, and the answer is likely controlled by a set of physical laws that we do not yet understand at all well: the laws of quantum gravity. In order for humans to travel forward in time very rapidly, or backward (if allowed at all), we would need technology far far beyond anything we are capable of today.

Travelling forward in time rapidly
Albert Einstein's relativistic laws of physics tell us that time is "personal". If you and I move differently or are at different locations in a gravitational field, then the rate of flow of time that you experience (the rate that governs the ticking of any very good clock you carry with you and that governs the aging of your body) is different from the rate of time flow that I experience. (Einstein used the phrase "time is relative"; I prefer "time is personal".)

This personal character of time allows one person to travel forward in time much faster than another, a phenomenon embodied in the so-called twins paradox.

 

[paddoboy]

He goes on to mention other methods.....
http://plus.maths.org/content/time-travel-allowed
A massive black hole is another vehicle for rapid forward time travel: If Methuselah remains in orbit high above the event horizonof a massive black hole (say, one whose gravitational pull is that of a billion suns) and Florence travels down to near the event horizon and hovers just above it for, say, 30 years and then returns, Methuselah can have aged thousands or millions of years. This is because time flows much more slowly near a black hole's event horizon (where the acceleration of gravity is huge) than far above it (where one can live sedately).

These time travel phenomena have been tested in the laboratory. Muons — short-lived elementary particles — travelling around and around in a storage ring at 0.9994 of the speed of light, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island, New York, have been seen to age 29 times more slowly than muons at rest in the laboratory. And atomic clocks on the surface of the Earth have been seen to run more slowly than atomic clocks high above the Earth's surface — more slowly by about 4 parts in 10 billion.


The article concludes thus....
Progress in the quest to understand quantum gravity has been substantial over the past two decades. Complete success will come, I am convinced, within the next two decades or so — and it will bring not only a clear understanding of whether backward time travel is possible, but also an understanding of many other mysteries, including how our Universe was born (see the Plus article What happened before the Big Bang?).

 

[paddoboy]

first what page #

I'm not really sure.....I dont keep track of all my posts. Now if you want to find out, then do some searching, simple...or give us or own version of what time dilation is.
In essence, if this was a question from a genuine fair dinkum poster, that wasn't renowned as a troll baiter and anti science nut, I would probably give you the answer you require.
But we all know what to expect from you, don't we river?

 

[paddoboy]

Here is a nice little informative video....
http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/2014/02/is_time_travel_possible/


I know, I know Farsight...Just another pop scientist, giving all us poor folk a pop science interpretation of time travel. But what you and others totally ignore, is as much as he dumbs it down for lay folk, he still has the credentials that make him an expert, which you do not, and he still is teaching the view held by the mainstream, not some kindergarten ego inflating personal hypothesis made up just to make you feel good...and finally he is basically expressing the view that every renowned known scientist so far, that I have linked to, and those that tashja has so kindly and thoughtfully E-Mailed for their opinions.
All have agreed that time travel is allowed by the laws of physics and GR, and all have been of the view that time dilation is a form of time travel

 

[paddoboy]

first what page #

hey river ol son...I have a question...just one question...I promise I will not play your tedious irrelevant question after question after question.
Simply put....Do you accept the much validated phenomena that we call time dilation?
Yes or No.

 

[river]

all of this is based on mathematics

hey river ol son...I have a question...just one question...I promise I will not play your tedious irrelevant question after question after question.
Simply put....Do you accept the much validated phenomena that we call time dilation?
Yes or No.

Yes and No

Because its not about time , it is about the objects movements in an environment

It is the environment and the objects within it that dictates " time "

 

[paddoboy]

all of this is based on mathematics


Yes and No

Because its not about time , it is about the objects movements in an environment

It is the environment and the objects within it that dictates " time "

Fail. Yes it is about time. Time [ as we know it] is what evolved from the BB, along with space [as we know it] Movement and change happened in time, not without it. Because with out it [no time] we would have no nothing....

https://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/a11332.html
Experiments continue to show that there is no 'space' that stands apart from space-time itself...no arena in which matter, energy and gravity operate which is not affected by matter, energy and gravity. General relativity tells us that what we call space is just another feature of the gravitational field of the universe, so space and space-time can and do not exist apart from the matter and energy that creates the gravitational field. This is not speculation, but sound observation.
Sten Odenwald:

 

[Farsight]

Here is an example for the wormhole. This paper does an analysis for the Casimir wormhole. The good esoteric stuff...

This is pseudoscience garbage for kids and suckers. I tell you what, why don't you start a thread on this, and I'll rip it to shreds.

The Casimir effect shows that a violation of the weak energy condition is possible.

No it doesn't. It's an example of less positive energy, not an example of negative energy. Ditto for gravitational potential energy, where people peddle nonsense saying the total energy of the universe is zero.

The issue becomes how can we get a big enough violation to hold the wormhole throat open or the walls of Prof Alcubierre warp spacetime from collapsing.

No it isn't. The issue is understanding what you're dealing with to make sure you don't get sucked into believing in woo.

 

[Farsight]

This is hardly an argument for or against - a bald and ignorant assertion. Consider this. Given a Hermitian operator acting on a state function, itself an element of an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space, the set of all available eigenvalues for this operator is called the spectrum for this operator. In the infinite-dimensional case this spectrum is (usually) continuous. So a measurement of the said state is simply a determination of one of the many possible eigenvalues of the operator in question. Another measurement might easily yield a different eigenvalue. But the MWI simply says that all other eigenvalues are still available "out there" What is so outrageous about that?

I tell you what, start a thread about the MWI, and I'll rip it to shreds with all the evidence and logic and references you will need. And then you can ignore and dismiss all the evidence and logic and references, and carry on believing in popscience pseudoscience woo.

This is of course unrelated to time travel. I would simply point out the following analogy - assuming it makes sense to talk about "the present", and assuming that in some sense "the future" is determined by the present one would say that the relation between the two is highly non-linear. Deterministic non-linear processes are generally referred to as "chaotic". Does this mean a choice of which "future" you travel to (if you could) would be the same every trip you made? Given the caveat "if", I say not.

Uhnnn, it gets worse. Not only are we asked to swallow time travel, but now it's time travel to the future of your choice. Ye Gods!

Conversely, we are where we are. We are connected to the past via a similarly chaotic process, but this process "choses our now" from all other possible "nows". So to travel back in time (assuming again it is possible), and assuming the rule of causality is irreversible, this would place very severe restrictions on how you could influence the "now" you have traveled back from.

Jesus H Christ, go and read the OP! Understand why time travel is science fiction[url="http://"].[/url]

 

[Landau Roof]

Pad

What is time dilation ?

I can tell you what it is not. It is not time travel. If it is, then suspended animation is time travel. Not dying and seeing tomorrow is time travel. Earlier today I made the mistake of looking at Paddoboy's posts although he has been on my ignore list for this past month and more. I did it because River's (your) posts were making even less sense than they usually do because I could not see Paddoboy's half of your convo. He has learned nothing, I see. Even though he previously admitted that time travel is science fiction, and it should be clear to Pad and his dog by now that time dilation is not time travel, yet he persists in posting the same old links again and again as if by repeating his links he can be correct in his beliefs (yes, I said 'beliefs') about time travel. He still thinks that if a thing is 'mainstream' that make it correct. I often say that I am no scientist, but I see that I am more of a scientist than Paddoboy will ever be because I understand that scientific thought is looking at the evidence and going with it, and using your imagination to possibly expand on what's known. Pad seems to think science is a church he belongs to, and that he must follow every dogmatic view to the letter - either that or he simply cannot take in new information and has too much ego to ever admit he has got it wrong. Whatever he is, and maybe he is a splendid human being in real life; he is not a scientific thinker. I think I will keep him on my ignore list because when I review this thread I see he has nothing of value to contribute.

 

[Farsight]

I can tell you what it is not. it is not time travel. If it is, then suspended animation is time travel. Not dying and seeing tomorrow is time travel. Earlier today I made the mistake of looking at Paddoboy's posts although he has been on my ignore list for this past month and more. I did it because River's (your) posts were making even less sense than they usually do because I could not see Paddoboy's half of your convo. He has learned nothing, I see. Even though he previously admitted that time travel is science fiction, and it should be clear to Pad and his dog by now that time dilation is not time travel, yet he persists in posting the same old links again and again as if by repeating his links he can be correct in his beliefs (yes, I said 'beliefs') about time travel. He still thinks that if a thing is 'mainstream' that make it correct. I often say that I am no scientist, but I see that I am more of a scientist than Paddoboy will ever be because I understand that scientific thought is looking at the evidence and going with it, and using your imagination to possibly expand on what's known. Pad seems to think science is a church he belongs to, and that he must follow every dogmatic view to the letter - either that or he simply cannot take in new information and has too much ego to ever admit he has got it wrong. Whatever he is, and maybe he is a splendid human being in real life; he is not a scientific thinker. I think I will keep him on my ignore list because when I review this thread I see he has nothing of value to contribute.

Well said Landau. You have really nailed it there. There are people who believe in heaven and hell and sweet baby Jesus. And there are people who believe in time travel and the multiverse and a universe made of mathematics. And there ain't much talking to either of 'em.

 

[PhysBang]

This is pseudoscience garbage for kids and suckers. I tell you what, why don't you start a thread on this, and I'll rip it to shreds.

And all without ever looking at the mathematics or physics of the paper, because Farawsight doesn't do any of that icky stuff!

No it doesn't. It's an example of less positive energy, not an example of negative energy. Ditto for gravitational potential energy, where people peddle nonsense saying the total energy of the universe is zero.

And Farsight knows this magically, not because he has worked through the mathematics or physics. The very idea is horrible!

No it isn't. The issue is understanding what you're dealing with to make sure you don't get sucked into believing in woo.

Yes, woo like mathematics or physics!

This is pseudoscience garbage for kids and suckers. I tell you what, why don't you start a thread on this, and I'll rip it to shreds.

Again, not with mathematics or physics, but with special Farsight dogma! That dogma can do what all the folks at Oxford can't do.