Perhaps this vulnerability is just a remnant of the past, sticking so strongly because Christians still put pressure on me, and also sticking so strongly because I am not yet sure how exactly karma works.
To theists: How do you distinguish between reality and wishful thinking?
- Thread starter greenberg
- Start date
Perhaps this vulnerability is just a remnant of the past, sticking so strongly because Christians still put pressure on me, and also sticking so strongly because I am not yet sure how exactly karma works.
The thread didn't go as I hoped it would; but not that it's useless as it is, far from that.
I thought the OP questions were clear and straightforward. Instead, there were very few replies directly to it. I wonder how come.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
Give it a shot to answer them yourself and I think you will see. At some point you will have to depend on intuition. But even the parts 'above' that are extremely complicated to answer. Some of it on the order of 'why don't you like flavored chocolate?' A serious phenomenological sitdown might produce something interesting before it got to the 'cause it tastes wrong stage', but man it is not going to be easy. A lot of the mechanisms we use to determine the validity or source of sensory impressions or ideas or honesty in another are very complicated and have thousands of bits of input.
How did the tiger now to change direction at exactly that angle just before the water buffalo did? The tiger obviously would have a hard time explaining. A team of naturalists and physicists might be able to pore over very good film and figure out what cues were present in this instance in the water buffalo's escape attempt. But then there is history long before that playing a role also in the tiger's decisions.
Nevertheless some tigers are better at hunting than others.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
OK. I'll be the samuri. 'Christians still put pressure on you'? Move away, or make them move away. they will give up. If you want them to stop there is a short path to where there is not pressure from them.
They are 'sticking so strongly'? No, it is you who are sticking to them. Take responsibility for that and their power is gone.
To know how Karma works in this instance is to try to distract yourself into being objective about yourself.
Make a choice.
greenberg: Your OP poses a question that has been asked for a long time about God (or the Gods), or about if religion can really "lead" someone to enlightenment/salvation.
As for the first part: Is belief in God wishful thinking? Well. if you talk to someone who believes they have experienced something, that is only explicable in terms of an "unknowable" power, or force that the mind simply cannot rationalise, it's obvious they are "convinced", certainly it must be pretty powerful "wishing".
You may have had a similar experience at some time in your life. Lots of people do, and sometimes this can change their outlook dramatically. I don't think such people are deluding themselves, so much as trying to explain it (which can't really be done).
This could all mean that humans are capable of experiences that seem to be in some "other" world (beyond ordinary experience), that are perfectly ordinary and do not require any metaphysical explanation (like the way infinity "exists", but can't be reached).
Or maybe God is something real, and its up to us to understand "it".
I don't honestly believe in the Judaeo-Christian God (a guy who lives up in the sky somewhere), but I do believe in something that is a transcendental experience, a direct connection to something that is our "true" nature. Religion tries, I think, but fails in some sense, due maybe to the fact that religion is essentially the hijacking of belief by men who want power and control (despite the "triumph" of Christianity).
Philosophers and Saints have discussed this subject and thought about it a lot more than I have, and they seem to say pretty much the same (IMO). Also I don't think the world is inherently evil, or good either --because these are our judgements (is a lion who kills a young antelope evil? The antelope dies pretty horribly, especially if it's still conscious when it starts getting eaten). The world is certainly a danger to us (and a lot of other lifeforms) though.
The universe is what it is -it's up to us to learn about it. God goes under the same heading, I think.
Don't think that you need to get into religious discussions with "fanatics" -that's just going to give you a headache. Life's a journey we make by ourselves, largely. Others are there to reflect our presence, to remind us who we are.
As for the first part: Is belief in God wishful thinking? Well. if you talk to someone who believes they have experienced something, that is only explicable in terms of an "unknowable" power, or force that the mind simply cannot rationalise, it's obvious they are "convinced", certainly it must be pretty powerful "wishing".
You may have had a similar experience at some time in your life. Lots of people do, and sometimes this can change their outlook dramatically. I don't think such people are deluding themselves, so much as trying to explain it (which can't really be done).
This could all mean that humans are capable of experiences that seem to be in some "other" world (beyond ordinary experience), that are perfectly ordinary and do not require any metaphysical explanation (like the way infinity "exists", but can't be reached).
Or maybe God is something real, and its up to us to understand "it".
I don't honestly believe in the Judaeo-Christian God (a guy who lives up in the sky somewhere), but I do believe in something that is a transcendental experience, a direct connection to something that is our "true" nature. Religion tries, I think, but fails in some sense, due maybe to the fact that religion is essentially the hijacking of belief by men who want power and control (despite the "triumph" of Christianity).
Philosophers and Saints have discussed this subject and thought about it a lot more than I have, and they seem to say pretty much the same (IMO). Also I don't think the world is inherently evil, or good either --because these are our judgements (is a lion who kills a young antelope evil? The antelope dies pretty horribly, especially if it's still conscious when it starts getting eaten). The world is certainly a danger to us (and a lot of other lifeforms) though.
The universe is what it is -it's up to us to learn about it. God goes under the same heading, I think.
Don't think that you need to get into religious discussions with "fanatics" -that's just going to give you a headache. Life's a journey we make by ourselves, largely. Others are there to reflect our presence, to remind us who we are.
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Agreed.
That makes sense. But I gre up in a "fanatic" atmosphere, the need to get into religious discussions is deeply ingrained in my bones. It's not something that would be easy to leave behind, rehardless how wrong that need feels.
Thank you.
greenberg,
How many ways are there to distinguish?
I can wish to win the national lottery, I can even believe I have won the lottery, but how far will I go before realising it is not reality?
If you regard "theists" as human beings, then you only need to answer the question yourself. If you don't, then there's nothing I can say.
A theist position is that he believes in God, and he is sure of that belief, not that he KNOWS God exists, and is sure that God exists. There are plenty of things which can be the cause of such a belief, most of which have been discussed to death, so there is no need to go there.
What did you then decide?
Do you think maybe your disbelief was triggered by a society whose claims of being followers of Jesus, were exagerated?
If now, your position is atheist, how do you know that you are grounded in reality, and not just wishful thinking? For example, God does not exist so I can do what I like.
Jan.
How many ways are there to distinguish?
I can wish to win the national lottery, I can even believe I have won the lottery, but how far will I go before realising it is not reality?
If you regard "theists" as human beings, then you only need to answer the question yourself. If you don't, then there's nothing I can say.
A theist position is that he believes in God, and he is sure of that belief, not that he KNOWS God exists, and is sure that God exists. There are plenty of things which can be the cause of such a belief, most of which have been discussed to death, so there is no need to go there.
What did you then decide?
Do you think maybe your disbelief was triggered by a society whose claims of being followers of Jesus, were exagerated?
If now, your position is atheist, how do you know that you are grounded in reality, and not just wishful thinking? For example, God does not exist so I can do what I like.
Jan.
Why would being an atheist mean an individual would think they can do what they like? Morality is not absolute nor God given.
If it were, stuff like this wouldn't happen, surely;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7085067.stm
To note - This thread has been posted a while back, and in the meantime some new considerations arose, so my views are now somewhat different than they were before.
I do regard them as "human beings", but I am not sure we are all sufficiently similar for our abilities to be compatible. That is, some humans might have the ability to know God, and some might not; some might have one set of criteria for distinguishing between reality and imagination, some another set, the two sets possibly being incomparable.
... so to a theist, the belief in God is aprioristic, possibly unexplicable? And their differentiation between reality and imagination is possibly different than that of a non-theist?
I decided to stop regularly going to church, to stop regularly reading the Bible, to stop regularly spending time with my Christian friends, to stop praying regularly.
I wouldn't call it "disbelief", but "doubt".
Personally, I would say that yes, the way the people around me behaved triggered me to doubt what I thought I believed. But then I think of the directive to not point fingers, to look at the beam in my own eye - and then I am compelled to say that it is my own evilness that made me see those other people as not being proper followers of Jesus, while all along they were.
I don't know that. I said that earlier in the thread - That I take the distinction between reality and imagination for granted; which is enough for a part of everyday life, but is not sufficient when it comes to figuring out things like the purpose of my life. This is where I suppose I would need to distinguish sharply between reality and imagination.
It seems to me that some theists are very good at making this distinction, considering how readily they accuse non-theists of lying and dishonesty.
God or not, I can't "do what I like". Actions have consequences, consequences that I might not always like.
I do regard them as "human beings", but I am not sure we are all sufficiently similar for our abilities to be compatible. That is, some humans might have the ability to know God, and some might not; some might have one set of criteria for distinguishing between reality and imagination, some another set, the two sets possibly being incomparable.
... so to a theist, the belief in God is aprioristic, possibly unexplicable? And their differentiation between reality and imagination is possibly different than that of a non-theist?
I decided to stop regularly going to church, to stop regularly reading the Bible, to stop regularly spending time with my Christian friends, to stop praying regularly.
I wouldn't call it "disbelief", but "doubt".
Personally, I would say that yes, the way the people around me behaved triggered me to doubt what I thought I believed. But then I think of the directive to not point fingers, to look at the beam in my own eye - and then I am compelled to say that it is my own evilness that made me see those other people as not being proper followers of Jesus, while all along they were.
I don't know that. I said that earlier in the thread - That I take the distinction between reality and imagination for granted; which is enough for a part of everyday life, but is not sufficient when it comes to figuring out things like the purpose of my life. This is where I suppose I would need to distinguish sharply between reality and imagination.
It seems to me that some theists are very good at making this distinction, considering how readily they accuse non-theists of lying and dishonesty.
God or not, I can't "do what I like". Actions have consequences, consequences that I might not always like.
phlogistician,
It's possible that it could be a reason. Alot of atheists I know, are so because they don't want to be told how to live their lives.
It may not sit well with the rational, logical, and intelligent, image being fashioned, but it is true.
Why?
You're not going to judge a persons integrity on the basis of how they EARN their living, or how they dress are you?
Jan.
It's possible that it could be a reason. Alot of atheists I know, are so because they don't want to be told how to live their lives.
It may not sit well with the rational, logical, and intelligent, image being fashioned, but it is true.
Why?
You're not going to judge a persons integrity on the basis of how they EARN their living, or how they dress are you?
Jan.
Why?
You're not going to judge a persons integrity on the basis of how they EARN their living, or how they dress are you?
Good point. But really - for many of us making a consideration like you just did, is quite a stretch.
I think many are conditioned to apriori assign integrity to someone who declares it, or to whom it is traditionally ascribed.
I'm glad you pointed this out. However, whom or what are we then to consider to be an authority, a person of integrity, if we don't -blindly- give our credence to those who declare authority and integrity?
I dare say that in our society in the "West", we do not have a common and widely-accepted set of guidelines by which we could direct ourselves when it comes to recognizing integrity. The choices seem to be limited down to a dichotomy between "those who declare authority and integrity" and "each person for themselves". Needless to say, following either ends badly.
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
This seemed important to me. That we need to give credence to those who declare authority and integrity. Can't we be impressed with what they do and say. How courageous they are - however we ourselves define it - spiritually or interpersonally?
Can't it be more of a recognition of nascent strengths in ourselves that we see in them?
Can't it also be a taste issue?
I don't see it as some teachers, masters, believers are right and the others are wrong.
I see very different aims, styles, tastes, proclivities, emphasized activities and so on.
I am not sure it is a matter of finding the right one 'who knows' but moving towards what you desire with those you feel best with.
If you desire to end all suffering - yes, I am aware of the irony of a potential Buddhist having this desire - and find a temple or set of practices that feel right to you, why not try it out. You can later try something else if experience shows it is a bad fit.
I do not think all paths are leading to the same goals. I do not everyone would or should want to make the choices I have made. They may be happier - or whatever adjective you prefer - trying to achieve something else.
And for me it is unappealing when someone proclaims authority and wants to be on top. Others obviously are drawn to this.
So they rape, pillage and plunder without fear of reprisal or regret? Or actually they are atheists because they find no reason to believe in God and don't need to be bullied into behaving properly by some alleged higher power?
You're not going to judge a persons integrity on the basis of how they EARN their living, or how they dress are you?
Jan.
No, rather that this guy allegedly believes in God, which according to you means he is accountable to God for his actions, yet still he transgresses. This makes a mockery of your line;
"God does not exist so I can do what I like."
Seems God's existence, or people's belief therein is irrelevant. Especially when it comes to paedophile clergy.
Interesting perspective.
I would guess that you are not looking for a teacher, at least not the all-in-one-person kind of teacher?
There is no such irony -
Grantywanty
Registered Senior Member
Good assumption. I certainly do feel that there are people who can teach me things. I also have met people who I feel are able to accept themselves more than I can myself, they are more able to trust their own intuition and express themselves more fully than I allow myself to. But I have no urge to sit at their feet taking notes. I'd rather hang out like friends, make some music or whatever, or share ideas and experiences about healing ourselves as equals, even if, at this or that moment, I may have a dash more self-hatred.
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