Before you say it, OBE are achieved within a hynagogic period which can be controlled consciously, as in turned on and off with practice, so all hypnagogic experiences are not involved in normal sleeping.
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Trouble separating dreams from reality
- Thread starter Just_Not_There
- Start date
Dreams can be hynagogic, can be within REM sleep. They were differentiating away from hallucination and OBE, obviously, when using the term dream.
The surveys 1 and 2 look at sleepers exclusively. The stats show this is common.
I would almost agree with that... I would say that it looks at the full life cycle of sleep. Falling asleep, sleeping, and waking up.
The term hypnagogic/hypnopompic experiences, apart from falling-asleep and waking dreams, also includes lucid DREAMS (you state hynagogia is separate to dreams so why are lucid DREAMS included within the term???), out of body experiences and hallucinations.
You are correct, hypnagogia (and hynopompia) are separate from dreams. It's why science has seperate names for them. Lucid dreams have never been a part of hypnagogia or hypnopompia. That association is usually made by people uneducated with technical terminology. Lucid dreams are regular REM cycle dreams where the dreamer realizes the experience is in fact a dream. Nothing more, nothing less. Out of body experiences are not confined to anything in the sleep cycle. The can be induced while fully awake:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070823141057.htm
At no point do the authors mention all types of hynagogia were surveyed in their studys 1 or 2.
Correct, and that's a problem. In study 1, there was no way to differentiate between a hynagogic hallucination, REM dream, or hynopompic hallucination (and there was no way to prevent them from being part of the results). The authors phrased a question in study 2 so statics on hynagogic hallucinations could be differentiated.
The incorrect part about the study is the classification of hynagogia and hynopompia as dreams. They are not dreams. They have been assigned different words in the English language other than "dream". Their heirarchical classification has nothing with the word "dream" above them.
They mention SLEEPING experiences as in DREAMS. They chose to use the term DREAM because it was applicable in this case. They were only interested in hypnagogia involved in sleep, hence their terminology. But they weren't narrowing it down to only hynagogia exclusively. They were looking at all DREAMS as in sleeping related. They frequently mention SLEEP SLEEP SLEEP as related to their test-group.
Yes, they do mention sleep and their study covers the full life cycle of sleep. Their terminology is simply incorrect and that makes their results incorrect for the scope defined by the terminology. By claiming any statistics for dreams and including (wittingly or unwittingly) hynagogic hallucination or hynopompic hallucination as part of those statistics, they have screwed the pooch. If they changed their terminology so it was clear that the study covered three unique forms of natural human hallucination then they would have been a lot better off.
So again, it has been proven by the survey that sleeping dreams (hynagogia can be classified as dreams when experienced during sleep, beginning, middle or end) can quite often be mistaken for reality by a random test-group, within a short survey's time-period. So therefore over a life-span the chances of an individual experiencing the phenomenon in question - (threads title no less)- is probably a reasonably high percentage.
Hynagogic hallucinations are not dreams experienced while asleep (they are hallucinations experienced while falling asleep). What the study does show is that people who remember internally generated sleep-related experiences can incorrectly recall them as being waking external experiences.
The reason I know my memories were dreams was because after the other party said they weren't there in the experience, and then pondering for a few days over the scenario, I remembered that they were in fact dreams.
That makes sense.
Sorry but I disagree. It is possible to dream in a Hypnagogic state, waking or falling asleep. At no point have I said that I think it is impossible to dream in a hypnagogic state. If you disagree with me then you should edit the wiki page too that says it is possible to lucid dream within hypnagogic experiences. I for one have dreamed dreams whilst falling asleep and waking.
Why do you believe you have some kind of right to offer a definitive explanation of the term "dream".
They claim in the survey that DREAMS can be incorrectly recalled "as being waking external experiences."
Their terminology may be off for you, but not for others including me.
So under my terminology (and the authors' (which is the one that matters as regards the survey's validity(are you refuting their survey has scientific value?))), which I choose to use, they prove that this phenomenon (mixing dreams with reality) is common when taken over a complete sleep cycle, including hypnagogic dreaming and deeper-sleep dreaming. That was the survey. In fact the proportion is detailed here:
So the remaining percentage is deeper sleep dreaming. If you even take out the 12% and 37% from the equation you are still left with 51% as deeper sleep dreams. This therefore backs up the idea that this is common because even if you half the occurrences of this phenomenon from the results of the study you will still get a significant percentage hit rate from the survey's stats.
I would say to the creator of the thread that he shouldn't worry and should simply try the method I suggested, however his problem occurred.
Why do you believe you have some kind of right to offer a definitive explanation of the term "dream".
They claim in the survey that DREAMS can be incorrectly recalled "as being waking external experiences."
Their terminology may be off for you, but not for others including me.
So under my terminology (and the authors' (which is the one that matters as regards the survey's validity(are you refuting their survey has scientific value?))), which I choose to use, they prove that this phenomenon (mixing dreams with reality) is common when taken over a complete sleep cycle, including hypnagogic dreaming and deeper-sleep dreaming. That was the survey. In fact the proportion is detailed here:
Thirty-seven percent of the respondents experienced
such dreams during sleep onset (hypnagogic
hallucinations), whereas 12% experienced these
dreams primarily during awakening
So the remaining percentage is deeper sleep dreaming. If you even take out the 12% and 37% from the equation you are still left with 51% as deeper sleep dreams. This therefore backs up the idea that this is common because even if you half the occurrences of this phenomenon from the results of the study you will still get a significant percentage hit rate from the survey's stats.
I would say to the creator of the thread that he shouldn't worry and should simply try the method I suggested, however his problem occurred.
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Sorry but I disagree. It is possible to dream in a Hypnagogic state, waking or falling asleep. At no point have I said that I think it is impossible to dream in a hypnagogic state. If you disagree with me then you should edit the wiki page too that says it is possible to lucid dream within hypnagogic experiences. I for one have dreamed dreams whilst falling asleep and waking.
Jesus, I don't know if you simply don't understand or if you don't want to understand. A dream-like experience while falling asleep is called a hypnagogic hallucination (not a dream). A dream-like experience while waking up is called a hypnopompic hallucination. While, I am not sure what wiki you are referring to, if you take a look at the publications that I referenced you will see very clear definitions. Here is a good online definition of hypnagogic hallucination:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-hypnagogic-hallucinations.htm
Here is a good online definition of lucid dreams:
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-lucid-dreaming.htm
While realizing that you are REM dreaming has the known phrase attached to of "lucid dreaming", realizing you are having a hypnagogic or hynopompic hallucination has no specific catch phrase to it... you just have to spell it out word for word.
Why do you believe you have some kind of right to offer a definitive explanation of the term "dream".
I can't imagine why you are asking me a subjective question and expecting an objective answer. I'll chalk it up you not realizing that you are doing so. The definitions I am using are used in college courses, psychology, neurology, etc. Definitions in general are there so we can communicate accurately. If I use the industry standard definition of apple and you have personally redefined it as an orange then we're going to have a very silly conversation about apples.
They claim in the survey that DREAMS can be incorrectly recalled "as being waking external experiences."
Their terminology may be off for you, but not for others including me.
I suspect it's easy for you to understand. It's just incorrect. The claim uses terminology that addresses one specific phenomenon but the surveys collect data from three independent phenomena.
So under my terminology (and the authors' (which is the one that matters as regards the survey's validity(are you refuting their survey has scientific value?))),...
It has scientific value alright. The termology is incorrect and that affects their accuracy. They are making a claim about one specific phenomenon using survey data that encompasses three different phenomena's. To put it bluntly, they don't have enough data granularity between the phenomena to make fully make accurate claims about dreams only. If any kind of analysis were to be performed on their study then their lack of data granularity would make any kind of p-value impossible to determine.
which I choose to use, they prove that this phenomenon (mixing dreams with reality) is common when taken over a complete sleep cycle, including hypnagogic dreaming and deeper-sleep dreaming. That was the survey. In fact the proportion is detailed here:
The detail you showed was a summary from the work of Ohayon et. al (1996). It wasn't part of the survey work. Consequently, all the original work of Ohayon et. al uses correct terminology. The summary of his work using incorrect terminology.
So the remaining percentage is deeper sleep dreaming. If you even take out the 12% and 37% from the equation you are still left with 51% as deeper sleep dreams. This therefore backs up the idea that this is common because even if you half the occurrences of this phenomenon from the results of the study you will still get a significant percentage hit rate from the survey's stats.
Remember, that 51% comes from a different study. You are still using that word "common" and not assigning any kind of meaningful number to it, so I obviously cannot agree with you. What can be said from the summary (TABLE 1 page 479) is that most of the people surveyed don't encounter memories of uncertain origin and don't encounter dreams with behavioral consequences.
I would say to the creator of the thread that he shouldn't worry and should simply try the method I suggested, however his problem occurred.
I would direct him to a physician. Having dreams go right to long term memory with zero short term memory recall when waking up is not normal and not covered by the study.
"Hypnagogic dreams" is a term widely used within fields that study dreams and sleep. If you google: "Hypnagogic dreams" you will see.
To say that the authors' of the materials you have read have ultimate control over terminology regarding the term "Hypnagogic dreams" is preposterous.
Just Not There may not be aware of the full mechanism of his problem, or could be assuming it worked in a way it possibly didn't.
As to the study. It clearly shows stats that show that within a random group of test subjects mixing up of dreams with reality is common, with the terminology they choose. Maybe you are not listening. the term "hypnagogic dream" is a common one within the field of dream study.
To say that the authors' of the materials you have read have ultimate control over terminology regarding the term "Hypnagogic dreams" is preposterous.
Just Not There may not be aware of the full mechanism of his problem, or could be assuming it worked in a way it possibly didn't.
As to the study. It clearly shows stats that show that within a random group of test subjects mixing up of dreams with reality is common, with the terminology they choose. Maybe you are not listening. the term "hypnagogic dream" is a common one within the field of dream study.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia
quote from the web page linked above:
As you will notice it is recognised that "lucid dreaming" is a hypnagogic state. So your assertion that no type of hypnagogic state can be referred to as a dream is false. There are many many uses of "hypnagogic dreams" within scientific texts and websites associated with oneirological subjects.
Also hynopompic states are referred to as dreams.
quote from the web page linked above:
The equivalent transition to wakefulness is termed the hypnopompic state. Mental phenomena that occur during this "threshold consciousness" phase include lucid dreaming, hallucinations, out of body experiences and sleep paralysis.
As you will notice it is recognised that "lucid dreaming" is a hypnagogic state. So your assertion that no type of hypnagogic state can be referred to as a dream is false. There are many many uses of "hypnagogic dreams" within scientific texts and websites associated with oneirological subjects.
Also hynopompic states are referred to as dreams.
Crunchy, you are assuming Just Not There is qualified to ascertain whether his dream experiences are hypnagogic, hypnopompic or REM or NREM etc. He is simply mixing up what he terms as dreams (same terminology as study). The study shows unqualified people, as you said, saying what they believe to be dreams being mixed up with reality. The study shows this phenomenon is common. I would say to Just Not There that he shouldn't worry as the study shows his condition is common. If my suggested self-treatment doesn't help and he is getting increasingly worried about it then maybe, as you suggest, he could go and see an oneirologist.
"Hypnagogic dreams" is a term widely used within fields that study dreams and sleep. If you google: "Hypnagogic dreams" you will see.
This is a false claim. It is a term incorrectly used and I will demonstrate it via google search statistics. For this experiment two terms were searched in google "Hynagogic dreams" and "Hypnagogic hallucination". The summarized results from the first two pages of links were observed for the occurance of the phrases "Hynagogic dreams" and "Hypnagogic hallucination", and a final count / percentage was tallied. Google search consequently returns 10 links per page so either phrase could have a maximum of 20 hits per search. Here are the results:
Search for "Hypnagogic dreams"
Hypnagogic hallucination - 6 hits (30%)
Hypnagogic dreams - 5 hits (25%)
Search for "Hypnagogic hallucination"
Hypnagogic hallucination - 20 hits (100%)
Hypnagogic dreams - 0 hits (0%)
As you can see, the search for "Hypnagogic dreams" results in 75% overall misses. 30% of the returned links are for "Hypnagogic hallucination", which is a higher percentage than "Hypnagogic dreams"
On the other hand, the search for "Hypnagogic hallucination" results in 100% overall hits. Non of the links returned are for "Hypnagogic dreams".
The result is quite clear, the phrase "Hypnagogic dreams" is a confused term that is not widely used within any field and it's beacked by pure statistical search support.
To say that the authors' of the materials you have read have ultimate control over terminology regarding the term "Hypnagogic dreams" is preposterous.
If other people want to use the wrong terminology and make the ebonics equivalent of established scientific terminology then that's fine; however, like people who only know ebonics, they will be left behind and marginalized. I am sure you have your reasons for prefering this outcome; however, don't expect others to share or even empathize with your position.
Just Not There may not be aware of the full mechanism of his problem, or could be assuming it worked in a way it possibly didn't.
I suspect the issue is something else entirely.
As to the study. It clearly shows stats that show that within a random group of test subjects mixing up of dreams with reality is common, with the terminology they choose. Maybe you are not listening. the term "hypnagogic dream" is a common one within the field of dream study.
The study shows that people can mistakenly recall internally generated sleep-cycle experiences as being former waking externally perceived experiences. To use the term "dream" in the claim of results is both incorrect and disingenous especially knowing the correct terminology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia
quote from the web page linked above:
As you will notice it is recognised that "lucid dreaming" is a hypnagogic state. So your assertion that no type of hypnagogic state can be referred to as a dream is false. There are many many uses of "hypnagogic dreams" within scientific texts and websites associated with oneirological subjects.
Also hynopompic states are referred to as dreams.
Within the wikipedia article you posted, you should click on the link for lucid dreaming and see what it mentions about the hypnagogic-anything. You will note that its only mention is as a tool for entering a lucid dream (i.e. a different state). What this means is that whomever wrote that part of the wikipedia article you referenced made an error and you can find much more well written online and book sources that validate that (some of which I have posted already). The very notion that one wikipedia article which isn't even corrobarated by its neighboring article somehow invalidates years of written and online publications is just stupid.
Crunchy, you are assuming Just Not There is qualified to ascertain whether his dream experiences are hypnagogic, hypnopompic or REM or NREM etc. He is simply mixing up what he terms as dreams (same terminology as study). The study shows unqualified people, as you said, saying what they believe to be dreams being mixed up with reality. The study shows this phenomenon is common. I would say to Just Not There that he shouldn't worry as the study shows his condition is common. If my suggested self-treatment doesn't help and he is getting increasingly worried about it then maybe, as you suggest, he could go and see an oneirologist.
It's a possibility, but I think it's something else entirely. I won't state what that is just in case Just_Not_There comes back for more interaction. Consequently, I would not recommend anyone with a serious problem to an oneierologist. That field has only recently graduated from philosphy/pseudoscience to a protoscience. It has a ways to go before it becomes field capable of clinical recommendation.
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