Twinkee: Can Survive Nuclear Holocaust, but not Union

[Michael]

That claim makes some nice demagoguery, but where is your proof. If you are going to make that kind of wild assed claim, you should be able to back it up.

Done: Rich getting even richer under Obama

Mr. Saez is the E. Morris Cox professor of economics and director of the Center for Equitable Growth at the University of California at Berkeley, no bastion of conservatism. Mr. Saez's field of expertise is public economics. According to Mr. Saez, fully 93 percent of the income gains made during the Obama "recovery" in 2010 went to the despised top 1 percent, while the other 99 percent saw only a 0.2 percent growth in real income.

To be more accurate, the banks were deregulated by a Republican controlled congress. Clinton didn’t veto the bill. He signed the bill into law.

Oh good, we agree: Chicken Hawk Neo-Con Warmongers go hand in glove with Progressive Democrat Welfare Queens.


Lets just make sure we have you on the record. Joe is an unabashed Progressive. He 110% fully supported bailing out the same Banks that led us into this Depression, he fully 110% supports maintaining the exact same Keynesian Economists running the economy who did NOT see the biggest Depression in the history of the USA. The Federal Reserve ONLY hires Keynesian. Ben Bernanke is a Big Government Keynesian. For Progressives like Joe, the Government can not take on too much debt, the government can't sell to many 30 year Bonds that will have to be repaid through your children's labor. For Progressives like Joe, Fascism is part and parcel of a 'Modern Economy'.

When the To Big To Fail banks start failing again, Joe will 200% support our bailing them out AGAIN. He supports taking YOUR labor, through income tax, and giving that to wealthy 1% fat Banking CEOs so they can give themselves bonuses and buy yachts.


One more time: When the Banks need bailing out again: Progressives, like Joe, will be more than happy to bail them out again using YOUR money.


Welcome to the World of Neo-Con Chicken Hawks and their Progressive Welfare Queens. And while you're here, take a really good look at Twinkie Inc because they're parting out Americans just as they'll part this company out selling everything off to the richest top 1% who pay for their elections, support their reelection, they've set up institutions to award them with 'prestigious' accolades, secure their funding grants and endow them with prestigious title like Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Chairman Mao would be proud.


So, when you look around at the f*cked up mess that is the USA, thank your 'Civil Servants' the Neo-Con Chicken Hawks and their Progressive Welfare Queens.

 

[RealityCheck]

Done: Rich getting even richer under Obama



Oh good, we agree: Chicken Hawk Neo-Con Warmongers go hand in glove with Progressive Democrat Welfare Queens.


Lets just make sure we have you on the record. Joe is an unabashed Progressive. He 110% fully supported bailing out the same Banks that led us into this Depression, he fully 110% supports maintaining the exact same Keynesian Economists running the economy who did NOT see the biggest Depression in the history of the USA. The Federal Reserve ONLY hires Keynesian. Ben Bernanke is a Big Government Keynesian. For Progressives like Joe, the Government can not take on too much debt, the government can't sell to many 30 year Bonds that will have to be repaid through your children's labor. For Progressives like Joe, Fascism is part and parcel of a 'Modern Economy'.

When the To Big To Fail banks start failing again, Joe will 200% support our bailing them out AGAIN. He supports taking YOUR labor, through income tax, and giving that to wealthy 1% fat Banking CEOs so they can give themselves bonuses and buy yachts.


One more time: When the Banks need bailing out again: Progressives, like Joe, will be more than happy to bail them out again.


Welcome to the World of Neo-Con Chicken Hawks and their Progressive Welfare Queens. And while you're here, take a really good look at Twinkie Inc because they're parting out Americans just as they'll part this company out selling everything off to the richest top 1% who pay for their elections, support their reelection, they've set up institutions to award them with 'prestigious' accolades, secure their funding grants and endow them with prestigious title like Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Chairman Mao would be proud.


So, when you look around at the f*cked up mess that is the USA, thank your 'Civil Servants' the Neo-Con Chicken Hawks and their Progressive Welfare Queens.

Michael, Michael, where have you been? The first four years was all about plugging up the leaks on a sinking ship left us by republicans/conserves. That was PRIORITY ONE, to prevent further crisis of confidence in banks and preventing runs on banks like we saw in the thirties great depression!

Only now that things have stabilized can proper condidered reforms take centre stage...and what have the repubs/conserves and tea party lunies been up to....why OBSTRUCTION and LEGAL CHALLENGES of every reform attempt so far by Obama to bring the banks and other potentially critical financila/legal infrastructure/system in line with PREVENTIIN rather than CURE.

So slate the blame and anger home to repubs/conserves (GFC which they precipitated/left us) and look around and see that Obama has WANTED TO do averything it takes to remedy what you complain about, but it's the MONEY being poured into confrontation, sabotage and legal challenges by REPUBS/CONSERVES and tea party lunies because they DON'T WANT the reforms that the Dems DO ant and which you would agree with becuase they are aimed at correcting all that is wrong which you point to about the banking sector and the front men in congress who do everything thwy can to prevent the reforms for their mates. Talk about treasonous dogs!

Take the time to actually study IN DEPTH what has been going on before the GFC and since. Don't just take the slogans and lies of the repubs/conserves and tea party lunies as any semblance of reality and sanity, mate!

They demonstrated how out of touch with reality they are by 'fantasizing' that they would win the election on lies, fear-mongering and plain stupid/lunatic reactionary populism at its worst. Good luck!

 

[joepistole]

Done: Rich getting even richer under Obama

No it is not done. What you provided was an article referencing a vague statement which had been taken out of context. That is what you provided. You didn’t provide proof as was requested. If the basis for the claim rested on assets, well that makes sense. Because when President Obama was sworn into office the equity markets had declined in value by more than 50%. The economy was at a very low point. So simply restoring the economy would mostly benefit the wealthy because they own the largest share of the asset base. That doesn’t mean that President Obama was a tool of the elites. It means he restored the economy and everyone benefited, including the wealthy.

Oh good, we agree: Chicken Hawk Neo-Con Warmongers go hand in glove with Progressive Democrat Welfare Queens.

No we don’t agree. You misrepresented history.

Lets just make sure we have you on the record. Joe is an unabashed Progressive. He 110% fully supported bailing out the same Banks that led us into this Depression, he fully 110% supports maintaining the exact same Keynesian Economists running the economy who did NOT see the biggest Depression in the history of the USA. The Federal Reserve ONLY hires Keynesian. Ben Bernanke is a Big Government Keynesian. For Progressives like Joe, the Government can not take on too much debt, the government can't sell to many 30 year Bonds that will have to be repaid through your children's labor. For Progressives like Joe, Fascism is part and parcel of a 'Modern Economy'.

My many posts speak for themselves. You are again indiscriminately throwing around labels. I view myself as a fiscal conservative. I always have viewed myself as a fiscal conservative. And I am a registered Republican. The last Republican I voted for was John McCain in the Republican primaries back in 2000. But I have been very disgruntled with the Republican Party of the last 20 years. The Republican Party of today is not the GOP of yester year. I support rational proven solutions to the nation’s problems. Yes I support mainstream solutions that are backed with up with empirical evidence. But I have told you this many times before, yet you like to continue your misrepresentations rather than face reality.

Furthermore, this is not a depression. What we experienced was a severe recession and the economy has been growing steadily since January of 2010. This too has been explained to you umpteen times before. But you continue to misrepresent, lie, about this and many other things. And you are lying again when you misrepresent my position on government debt.

You don’t seem to understand what it means to be a fiscal conservative, probably because you have zero understanding of finance, economics, business and government. I don’t have to rewrite the dictionary to make my points. I don’t have to ignore and rewrite history to make my ideology make sense as you do Michael. Unfortunately Michael all you have left is the demagoguery that permeates your writings.

When the To Big To Fail banks start failing again, Joe will 200% support our bailing them out AGAIN. He supports taking YOUR labor, through income tax, and giving that to wealthy 1% fat Banking CEOs so they can give themselves bonuses and buy yachts.

As has also been explained to you many times before Dodd-Frank prohibits banks from getting their necks in a bind again and provides a means for the orderly liquidation of those banks if by some reason they should get into difficulty, so your claim here is not only wrong it is inane.

One more time: When the Banks need bailing out again: Progressives, like Joe, will be more than happy to bail them out again using YOUR money.

Your continued refusal to accept reality is amazing.

Welcome to the World of Neo-Con Chicken Hawks and their Progressive Welfare Queens. And while you're here, take a really good look at Twinkie Inc because they're parting out Americans just as they'll part this company out selling everything off to the richest top 1% who pay for their elections, support their reelection, they've set up institutions to award them with 'prestigious' accolades, secure their funding grants and endow them with prestigious title like Chairman of the Federal Reserve, Chairman Mao would be proud.

This is just more incoherent nonsense Michael. It’s ironic to hear you complain about the top 1% because those are the very people who are financing your Libertarian political ideology. This too has been pointed out to you umpteen times – again one of the many unpleasant facts you like to ignore. Why do you think the Koch brothers are bankrolling your message of decreased government regulation and lower taxes, especially for them?

So, when you look around at the f*cked up mess that is the USA, thank your 'Civil Servants' the Neo-Con Chicken Hawks and their Progressive Welfare Queens.

This is just more inflammatory nonsense Michael. The USA is not a fucked up mess. Things are relatively well. Most of us are employed; some 92% of Americans have jobs. We have laws to protect people from violence, crime is down. We will all have access to affordable healthcare in the not too distant future. We have safety net programs to help those in less fortunate circumstances, providing hope and opportunity to the less fortunate. We have the largest manufacturing base in the world, including China. In a few years we will be the largest producer of oil and gas in the world. We have the most powerful military. We have many international friends and allies. Tax rates are at historic lows. Our economy is growing steadily and has been since 2010. Every month more and more private sector jobs are being added to the nation’s economy.

We do have challenges. But let’s put them into perspective. We are not facing world wars. We are not in the pangs of a great depression. We are not the “fIcked up mess” as you are claiming. But then to get people to act irrationally, you need them to be fearful in order to accept the ideology you are pushing. That is the reason for the histrionics.

 

[billvon]

Rich getting even richer under Obama

Good. So are the poorer. Everybody wins. (Should be no surprise, been going on for around 200 years now.)

 

[RealityCheck]

Hi Michael. If the rich are getting richer, then they should welcome Obama asking them to be more patriotic and pay their fair percentage of tax like the workers, and to not offshore profits and jobs and sabotage the reform process aimed at preventing banks/crooks getting us all into trouble again. Reasonable?

 

[Michael]

Michael, Michael, where have you been? The first four years was all about plugging up the leaks on a sinking ship left us by republicans/conserves. That was PRIORITY ONE, to prevent further crisis of confidence in banks and preventing runs on banks like we saw in the thirties great depression!

Can you provide any evidence at all that bailing out bad banks, who make bad loans, PREVENTED a "Thirties Depression"? Can you show me some data that definitively demonstrates that if we had let the bad banks go bust in 2008, that now in 2012 we wouldn't have a much healthier economy?

Can you do that? Actually, I can answer that: No you can not.

But, if you think you can, please show me the data that proves that in 2012 we'd be in a "Thirties Depression".

Do you know what a Synthetic Collateralized Debt Obligation even is? How is it you came to feel so confident that bailing out the top 1% was in YOUR best interest? Did you know Americans on Welfare is, as we speak, at an all time high? And if you think you're safe living in some other country - think again.

 

[Michael]

Hi Michael. If the rich are getting richer, then they should welcome Obama asking them to be more patriotic and pay their fair percentage of tax like the workers, and to not offshore profits and jobs and sabotage the reform process aimed at preventing banks/crooks getting us all into trouble again. Reasonable?

LOL

You are in for a real big disappointment.


- Welfare and Warfare fit together like hand in glove.

 

[ElectricFetus]

The Twinkee lives on, but has moved to canada, LOL!

 

[RealityCheck]

Hi Michael. Have you even bothered to follow the full process over the last four years where the world economies were tanking and confidence/resources in financial/commercial activity/access by the small business and personal borrowers was threatening to shut down all new investment and ongoing activity? That is what happens when there is a run on banks and all lending and activity ceases, and marginaly profitable enterprises responsible for most employment and tax base is effectively destroyed and difficult to restart after a great depression like the thirties without EVEN LARGER govt intervention/shoring up of banks and enterprises large and small after the destruction? PREVENTION is better than cure during emergencies; and especially so for the future.

Proof that we dodged a bullet because of quick and appropriate EMERGENCY intervention/support by govt over the last four years? Ok...

Australia avoided recession ALTOGETHER. And the US economy is already on the mend. These things would not have been possible had the GFC conditions (which were even more dire and global than the thirties conditions) been allowed to fester and worsen due to inaction and arms-length govt policies that would have seen major engineering/manufacturing industries and financial resources disappear down the chaotic plughole of uncontrolled bankruptcy and bank runs.

The emergency is nearing its end and NOW the reform phase begins. Be a part of the reforms/solutions, not the naysayer obstructionist types who would have seen you and your family and businesses go down the gurgler while they benefitted and offshored and evaded tax etc etc.

Wlefare has prevented class warfare for generations now. Remember the children down the mines, and the slave wage pittance/attitudes against the general population which created the conditions/hatreds and propaganda opportunities/effects which gave us the last two great dislocating WORLD wars and all the ideology echoes-driven COLD WAR years?

Ideology, poverty and injustice and elitist conmen politicians and crooks exploiting 'patriotism and religious and race bigotry is what we have to fear now. Poverty is at all time lows compared to the 'good old days' when govt was REALLY small and powerless and in the pockets of rich tycoons who made the slave wage which they still want to return to today if the republicans/conservative and their banker mates can gull enough people like you to pretend there is no difference in the choices you have NOW.

Do some real unbiased research on the internet and recent history back to WWI. Then see where ideological and class and religious crazies have ruled and plundered. Now we have a chance because these same scoundrels cannot hide in the age of the internet, and education and immediate access to internet information sources increasingly reduces the percentage of population which can be gulled and lied to easily.

The proof and the choices are out there. You just haven't bothered to look/see because of your patent preconclusionary attitude and 'selective listening/believing' and fear and panic which seems to permeate your character and thought processes.

Try the objective and tolerant approach. It works better than what you have been trying so far. Good luck.

 

[Michael]

I have Australian Citizenship, I've probably lived (multiple years) in more places in Australia than 99.99% of Australians. One in four Australians are from overseas - this has nothing to do with multiculturalism, it's about bringing in money and workers to pay for all the obligations. The commodities boom was totally wasted by the government, and now the government is selling everything but the kitchen sink to the Asians (including Citizenship) to keep up with the benefits. The debt levels in AU are higher than in the USA.

As for the Mother of All Depressions

Taking five hits of heroine / QE probably FEELS like everything is healthy. And when you're so stoned you can't see the doctors/government sawing off your legs ... sure, it SEEMS like everything is on the mend.

AND hey, if you think things are on the mend, then you just go on ahead and plan for the coming boom times.


See, I've actually seen inside some pretty wealthy people's vaults (as in walk in vaults - they love to show off their wealth) and see bars of gold, I think to myself.... hmmmm.... I might not be able to buy bars of gold, but I'm not willing to buy government bars of bullshit either.


Just try and remember the government didn't bailout YOU, they bailed out the 1% and told you to not to worry about it. You're doing exactly what they told you to moo.... err, did it again, I mean do

 

[Asguard]

what a load of bull

 

[joepistole]

Can you provide any evidence at all that bailing out bad banks, who make bad loans, PREVENTED a "Thirties Depression"? Can you show me some data that definitively demonstrates that if we had let the bad banks go bust in 2008, that now in 2012 we wouldn't have a much healthier economy?

Can you do that? Actually, I can answer that: No you can not.

Yes he can. That is easy. I don’t suppose you have heard of Lehman Brothers? The bank was allowed to collapse and it sent shockwaves across the globe. Lehman Brothers was bomb that inspired the fear which led to the bank bailouts.

At the time of the bank bailouts the economy was shrinking at a 9 percent rate and becoming worse with each passing month. The US economy alone was losing nearly a million jobs a month and getting worse with each passing month. We were well on our way to 25%+ unemployment.

It wasn’t until the bailouts and taken hold and Keynesian style stimulus took hold that things began to get better. The reason we didn’t see a great depression was because we took affirmative actions to reverse the economic deterioration. That was something that didn’t happen during The Great Depression.

But, if you think you can, please show me the data that proves that in 2012 we'd be in a "Thirties Depression".

You have seen the data numerous times; you just don’t like it so you pretend it doesn’t exist.

Do you know what a Synthetic Collateralized Debt Obligation even is? How is it you came to feel so confident that bailing out the top 1% was in YOUR best interest? Did you know Americans on Welfare is, as we speak, at an alltime high? And if you think you're safe living in some other country - think again.

Yes, but apparently you don’t. The bailout, as previously pointed to you on many occasions, bailed out the average American, bank depositors, homeowners, wage earners, 401k owners across the land not just the 1%. It bailed out the 100%. Were it not for the bailout, all Americans would have been severely and adversely affected. They would have been more reliant on federal assistance, not less. And federal expenditures would have soared. Revenues did collapse during the Great Recession and federal and local welfare costs did soar because of increased dependency resulting from the economic slowdown. We are now in recovery; things are getting better after the Keynesian interventions. After Keynesian interventions government revenues are up and government expenditures are down, down by more than 600 billion dollars since President Obama took office.

You just don’t like reality Michael, so you chose to deny it, pretend it doesn’t exist. One of the problems with Libertarianism is that it ignores history, empiricism, and always ends with an unwritten, “and then magic happens”, clause.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Turns out, it's not just the union's fault that even such an iconic brand as Hostess could not survive. Government also shares in a lot of the blame. Specifically, sugar tariffs:

Since 1934, Congress has supported tariffs that benefit primarily a few handful of powerful Florida families while forcing US confectioners to pay nearly twice the global market price for sugar.

One telling event: When Hostess had to cut costs to stay in business, it picked unions, not the sugar lobby, to fight.

“These large sugar growers ... are a notoriously powerful lobbying interest in Washington,” writes Chris Edwards of the Cato Institute in a 2007 report. “Federal supply restrictions have given them monopoly power, and they protect that power by becoming important supporters of presidents, governors, and many members of Congress.”

Such power has been good for business in the important swing state of Florida, but it has punished manufacturers who rely on sugar in other parts of the United States, the Commerce Department said in a 2006 report on the impact of sugar prices.

Sugar trade tariffs are “a classic case of protectionism, pure and simple, and that has ripple effects through other sectors of the economy, and, for all I know, the Hostess decision is one of them,” says William Galston, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington.

Trade restrictions on sugar have a long, complex history, and sugar is certainly not the only major industry to have Congress play nose tackle against global prices by restricting imports. Yet as those policies have come under fire in the past decade, both Republicans and Democrats have so far refused significant reforms.

That refusal to address tariffs that neither support infant industries nor provide national security has come despite damning reports from the Commerce Department about the impact on US jobs, including the fact that for every sugar job saved by tariffs, three confectionery manufacturing jobs are lost.

Some of those job losses came when candy companies like Fannie May and Brach’s moved the bulk of their manufacturing to Mexico and Kraft relocated a 600-worker Life Savers factory from Michigan to Canada, in order to pay global market prices for sugar.

The impending mass layoffs from 33 Hostess plants scattered around the US, economists say, might force Washington to take a more serious look at how public policy affects the ability of corporations to make money – especially in an economy where even iconic brands like Twinkies and Wonder bread aren’t safe.

“I think there are policy implications here,” says Mr. Edwards, an economist at the conservative Cato Institute. “The Department of Commerce, the Obama administration, and [Congress] need to look at Hostess as a case study: Why did this company have to go bankrupt? Why were its costs higher than it could afford? Are there regulatory issues with import barriers on sugar or unionization rules that we need to look at and change? We’ve got to understand why manufacturing in a lot of cases doesn’t seem to be profitable anymore.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2...-tariff-tale-behind-the-Hostess-demise.-video​

The Twinkee lives on, but has moved to canada, LOL!

As the article I referenced says, Life Savers is also now made in Canada so that the company can avoid ridiculous US sugar tariffs.

 

[billvon]

Turns out, it's not just the union's fault that even such an iconic brand as Hostess could not survive. Government also shares in a lot of the blame.

the Obama administration, and [Congress] need to look at Hostess as a case study: Why did this company have to go bankrupt?

Cool. Now it's Obama's fault. Was waiting for someone to blame him.

 

[RealityCheck]

I have Australian Citizenship, I've probably lived (multiple years) in more places in Australia than 99.99% of Australians. One in four Australians are from overseas - this has nothing to do with multiculturalism, it's about bringing in money and workers to pay for all the obligations. The commodities boom was totally wasted by the government, and now the government is selling everything but the kitchen sink to the Asians (including Citizenship) to keep up with the benefits. The debt levels in AU are higher than in the USA.

As for the Mother of All Depressions

Taking five hits of heroine / QE probably FEELS like everything is healthy. And when you're so stoned you can't see the doctors/government sawing off your legs ... sure, it SEEMS like everything is on the mend.

AND hey, if you think things are on the mend, then you just go on ahead and plan for the coming boom times.


See, I've actually seen inside some pretty wealthy people's vaults (as in walk in vaults - they love to show off their wealth) and see bars of gold, I think to myself.... hmmmm.... I might not be able to buy bars of gold, but I'm not willing to buy government bars of bullshit either.


Just try and remember the government didn't bailout YOU, they bailed out the 1% and told you to not to worry about it. You're doing exactly what they told you to moo.... err, did it again, I mean do

Hi Michael. You have so many of the facts wrong on that, it makes me wonder about whether you care for the realities rather than expedient perception for whatever reasons of yours. It's like watching Fox news when reading some of your posts; except that you have some valid points but the wrong target for blame. I'll leave you with your agenda, whatever that may be. It doesn't sound healthy. Take care you don't end up so confused and gulled by bitterness and whatever else is driving your own personal 'state' at the moment. Take time out. Wait to see what Obama can achieve that you want done to correct what you see as the problem(s). But at least wait until REFORMS have been enacted and in effect for a few years before we assess again who is for and who was against the worker and small business and democracy and science and humanity, both nationally and globally.

Mistakes have been made by many; the lessons are being learned as we speak. The emergency is waning and the healing/reforms beginning. Let's hope and trust that there are enough SANE people and TRUE patriots among the republican/conservative that will choose to be part of the solution and not continue to be part of the obstructionist, treacherous, crooked problem.....for all our sakes. Good luck!

 

[joepistole]

Turns out, it's not just the union's fault that even such an iconic brand as Hostess could not survive. Government also shares in a lot of the blame. Specifically, sugar tariffs:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2...-tariff-tale-behind-the-Hostess-demise.-video​

As the article I referenced says, Life Savers is also now made in Canada so that the company can avoid ridiculous US sugar tariffs.

Why should the US government intervene in the market to protect any agricultural product? All those Red States getting federal agricultural subsidies should stop immediately, not to mention the fact that federal subsidies seems to be at odds with Red State conservatism.

Additionally, why should government interventions to restrict supply and competition benefit the healthcare industry? The US government has actively constraining of anything from physicians to drugs for nearly a century?

I don’t think government should be actively constraining the price of agricultural products or healthcare products and services.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Sugar_Program

 

[Rhaedas]

Turns out, it's not just the union's fault that even such an iconic brand as Hostess could not survive. Government also shares in a lot of the blame.

At what point does it become the company management's fault? I've read some background of how Hostess didn't do anything over the years to adapt to changing markets and new competition. Iconic or not, if you don't run a company well, it will fail.

 

[joepistole]

At what point does it become the company management's fault? I've read some background of how Hostess didn't do anything over the years to adapt to changing markets and new competition. Iconic or not, if you don't run a company well, it will fail.

You are correct; company management was ultimately responsible it’s failure. So while there were aggravating factors, ultimately management was responsible for the company’s demise. There are many other companies operating in the same markets with similar products and they are doing quite well (e.g. Flowers Foods, Con Agra, etc.) in spite of unions and sugar prices.

http://www.flowersfoods.com/FFC_Brands/BrandDetail.cfm?BrandID=8

http://www.conagrafoods.com/

 

[Michael]

what a load of bull

Look around your home, see all that stuff made in Australia? Keep looking, see anything? What exactly DOES Au make that allows you to trade and have all this stuff? Oh, commodities.

 

[Michael]

Yes he can. That is easy. I don’t suppose you have heard of Lehman Brothers? The bank was allowed to collapse and it sent shockwaves across the globe. Lehman Brothers was bomb that inspired the fear which led to the bank bailouts.

At the time of the bank bailouts the economy was shrinking at a 9 percent rate and becoming worse with each passing month. The US economy alone was losing nearly a million jobs a month and getting worse with each passing month. We were well on our way to 25%+ unemployment.

Joe, this is not proof that right now in 2012 we wouldn't be in a much healthy economy. If you think it is, then publish your 'data' (aka: your vivid imagination of what the future MIGHT have looked like) in a journal. For all ANYONE KNOWS unemployment may have went up past 25% as the bad banks failed and then, after the dead wood was burned away, what was worth anything would have been purchased by people who had capital and life right now would be very very good in the USA.

See how making up a future works Joe? You have no, none, zero evidence of what life would be like in 2012. You have evidence of what life was like in 2008. ANY SCIENTIST ON EARTH knows, with all the variables and unknowns there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you can predict what the economy would be like half a decade in the future. If so do it right now. List the companies and their stock prices, list the unemployment figures for Jan 2017. Go on, you know the future, you have the magic crystal ball - do it.

NOTE: If you counted underemployment and people with Universities degrees working in bars and at McDonalds the number of people not in productive meaningful labor is way above 25%.

NOTE2: The Keynsians who run our economy did NOT see the Greatest Financial Crisis in the History of the USA even months before it took place. Now, that's a FACT. Notice the difference between FACT (for which we have data) and FICTION (which is your imagining what you think 2012 may have looked like).