And I answered you, a little testily. It's a complex of several facilities, one of which is apparently a mosque. You believe that a mosque must be a stand-alone building, seemingly. May I ask why? Do Muslims object to food, or exercise, or swimming?
Now, how many "mosques" have swimming pools, gyms and food courts?
You may find this surprising, but I find no accusatios that Obama is a Muslim in the AP, NYT or other articles that I have read and/or cited. Could you be more specific? Which of these have I dragged into the conversation?
Again, you ignore the argument and focus on irrelevant things like typos. Again, typical of you.
And again, your reading and comprehension is lacking. Or you are being dishonest. Which is it, Geoff?
This is a deliberate mischaracterization. I do not "revert", nor am I doing so now. I have illustrated the (low-order) complexity of the issue, which you have ignored again in order to score (farsical) points. Meanwhile, none of you have presented anything remotely supporting your arguments: you start out on a high road, or else start to pick at erroneous particulars or false definitions, and when that fails fall back on personal attacks.
You have done it consistently throughout this thread. It is like 'go to' argument in this. And it is blatantly obvious.
As for falling back to personal attacks? Of course, you are innocent in that department, aren't you Geoff? We have provided link after link about why the debate against this centre is bigoted, hypocritical and illogical. But hey, when all else fails, you resort to emotions and fall back on the 'it's Ground Zero' argument. But really, which is amusing when one considers Muslims are already praying 2 blocks from ground zero in an actual mosque and naked women are giving men lap dances 1 - 2 blocks away from ground zero. Appeals to emotions tend to fall flat when one considers how you have completely disregarded this.
This is a dodge, so I will ask again: what is Ground Zero, Bells? Define it. How extremist is extremist enough? For example: will women be required to pray in a separate area? Etc.
Who cares? How men and women pray is really none of my business. Again, you have absolutely no proof that he is an extremist and that this building will be used to push extremism. Your scare tactics and hysteria are pitiful and frankly, beneath you. Or maybe not. You are a product of what your media feeds you. And the result is your own extremism. The people leading the fight against this building have been openly racist and bigoted towards Muslims in general.
The loudest voices in the braying chorus denouncing a so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" belong to people - many of them non-New Yorkers - with no interest in honest debate, dialogue or true solutions.
Some are plain and simple bigots, like right-wing radio host and ex-Tea Party Express spokesman Mark Williams, who on May 21, 2009, posted on his personal blog the view that "Islam is a seventh century death cult coughed up by a psychotic pedophile and embraced by defective, tail- sprouting, tree-swinging, semihuman, bipedal primates with no claim to be treated like human beings."
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This is the side you are supporting.
We have people threatening to blow it up.
If the mosque gets built, "we will bombard it," Mor said. He would not elaborate but added that he believes the project "will never happen."
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Again. This is the side you are blindly supporting. So how extremist is extremist Geoff?
What is termed Ground Zero is where over 2500 people died when two planes smashed into two buildings in a terrorist attack. Few bodies were able to be recovered. Ground Zero is considered sacred. Now, this building is 2 blocks from Ground Zero, you cannot even see Ground Zero from it.
So answer the question I have asked you several times now and you have dodged repeatedly. Do you support the Patriot Act? Do you support that the Government has the right to detain anyone of their choosing on mere suspicion? Do you support that those detained are often not given right to legal counsel? After all, if you are all for denying people their religious freedoms on mere suspicion, I have to ask you about the Patriot Act. So, can you answer this questions please?
Except that it's planned as a massive Islamic complex, towering over the 9/11 Memorial. Now, while that's quite legal, it's also a little unusual, even suspicious.
15 stories towers over a complex that is 2 blocks away and won't be seen from the building at all?
How suspicious..
Seriously, can you be more hysterical?
Sorry: "a host of allegations"...from unnamed "sources". In short, scuttlebutt and rumor. When the Washington Post does it, you slam it. When you do it, you seem to think it justifiable.
Actually no, the links I provided state who finds him to be an American Agent. It is not supposition at all. Rauf works with the State Department. They often send him on speaking tours. He was the Imam who delivered a eulogy at the funeral of the young man who was beheaded at the hands of extremists in Pakistan. And yes, some see him as being an
American agent and others as being too soft and not Muslim enough. So which is he Geoff?
I think iceaura has answered this aspect quite well above, so I'll leave it to him. As usual, your accusations of bigotry are unfounded - and suspicious, given your previous racist comments - and also I suspect that you don't know what "hypocrisy" means.
What racist comments did I make Geoff?
Why aren't you protesting for the sacred ground of Ground Zero by seeking to have the strip club shut down, since women are objectified as sex objects in such places and how insensitive is it to have naked women gyrating their crotches in men's faces in such sacred ground? Or is that less insensitive than a cultural centre that will house a swimming pool, gym, food court, shops, amongst other things, as well as a prayer room, similar to what is in place in the Pentagon (you know, the other building struck by terrorists on the same day as those that struck the Towers)? As for the one at the Pentagon, theirs is even closer than the one that will be two blocks from Ground Zero:
For that matter, I wonder why they haven't objected to the space inside the Pentagon where Muslim prayer, holiday celebrations and readings of the Koran have gone on for nearly a decade.
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So why aren't you protesting against that one? I understand it was rebuilt as it was in the section actually hit by the plane.
You asked me whether or not I supported the Patriot Act - ignoring momentarily not only the relevance of the issue, but also the fact that I'd never actually asked for Rauf to be arrested:
I have addressed this already in this post.
My response question to this is in as much parallel as your Patriot Act inquiry, which you seem to recognize. I also note that in your comment above, "because" ends up as another non sequitur.
Still cannot answer the question?
Really? Evidence, please. Here's another of those:
So apparently I have made an "I'm white" argument. Where did I propose this argument? What was my objective? What did it mean?
I need to ask, do you suffer from dementia? And I am actually not trying to insult you, nor do I mean this as an insult. The reason I ask is because you seem to forget everything you have previously stated in particular threads. Your appeal for pity? Trying to goad? Troll maybe by using this argument? Using the 'I'm white' argument against big
black bells? Ah, but you have forgotten.
Or you could blame it on my being white, or Catholic, like the last time we clashed. Silly old typical bigoted me, huh? You know those white people! Am I right? And: "When all else fails" - great stuff.
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I call you a bigot and this is what you respond with...
Evidently you do: again - which race is Islam?
Ah, so it is not just this centre, but Islam in general? As for which race is Islam, it is a fairly obvious fact that the greater majority of Muslims around the world are not white. As are the
majority who are Muslims in the US.
Which question? Your baseless assertion? That wasn't a question. Rephrase and return.
And again you refuse to answer the question.
?? I'm sorry: is there any point at all to the personal opinion of the reporter, original or otherwise?? Yes? No? In short: why would anyone care? It's a mystery.
Ah. But why does everyone care now? Why did no one care at all when the proposal to build this centre was front page news in December? In fact, not a single person protested. Nothing was ever reported about it until months later. So why do people care now but did not care at all in December 2009 when this was originally made public?
Why is this so important now? Why did the Conservative media suddenly latch onto this in May, months later?
So why would anyone care nearly 6 months later? Why did no one care from December 2009 to May 2010? Why did no one even say 'boo' about this project in all that time?
Why were you silent from December 2009 to May 2010 about this Geoff? Why was it less objectionable and "suspicious" from December 2009 to May 2010? Why is it more "suspicious" now?
Err....actually, as I explained above, that was a parallel-argument designed to point out that your question about the Patriot Act was, similarly, a non sequitur. Your answer, however, to the question was unexpected and bizarre: like any inherently misogynistic law, it can be fair?? Let's continue this on another thread, say.
I am sorry. You expect me to say that the Western legal system is not misogynistic? HAHAHAHAAA!
At least I answered the question. I am still waiting for you to answer the question I have repeated over and over again and which you continue to dodge. Why do you dodge the question, Geoff?
Correct: no discussion about a pre-existing structure, because that would be unfair. (This isn't Indonesia, you know.)
You are aware that the building is currently being used as a prayer centre? Yes? You can claim that this is not Indonesia, but the zeal against this project makes it seem like some of the most extremist and backward regions in Indonesia where people threaten to blow up a building because of religion.
Can I ask, how long have you lived in New York State?
The one that recognizes that radical strippers didn't pilot a pair of jets into the Twin Towers.
Ah. They were Muslims. Because all Muslims are terrorists? Do you think that all Muslims adhere to the same extremist ideology as those who piloted those planes? Do you have proof that Rauf shares that ideology? If so, why did Bush's Government and Obama's Government use him to go on speaking tours to Muslim countries? You are claiming the Saudis? Again, care to explain this:
A recent Wall Street Journal editorial darkly cited unspecified “reports” that Park51 has “money coming from Saudi charities or Gulf princes that also fund Wahabi madrassas.” As Jon Stewart observed, this brand of innuendo could also be applied to News Corp., whose second largest shareholder after the Murdoch family is a member of the Saudi royal family. Perhaps last week’s revelation that News Corp. has poured $1 million into G.O.P. campaign coffers was a fiendishly clever smokescreen to deflect anyone from following the far greater sum of Saudi money (a $3 billion stake) that has flowed into Murdoch enterprises, or the News Corp. money (at least $70 million) recently invested in a Saudi media company.
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So tell me, which radical Muslims will be preaching in a cultural centre that contains a swimming pool, gymnasium, food court, shops, gallery, etc and preaching in a prayer room that is open to all?
I hope you don't mean for your sanity or logical processing.
It was pleasant to simply ignore your bigotry, dishonesty and hypocrisy for a bit.
