Vipassana

[chimpkin]

Anyway, the treatment for PTSD is completely different. A person recounts their tragedy and it's recorded. The then have to listen to it. Initially it's confronting. But, about 3 months of listening to your own voice and you stop "feeling" emotional because you know everything that's going to be said, as you've heard this over and over and over. At this stage your forebrain begins to analyzing the information. The connections between the amygdala and forebrain weaken (changes in presynaptic membrane - not well understood) as you no longer feel the fear emotion and your higher order cortical regions process the information.

Dude, as soon as I find my digital recorder, I am so going to try that at home.

 

[S.A.M.]

Nice post, I agree, though I do think in time our ability to measure intellectual states will be more and more exact. Take sex for instance. An fMRI can reliability measure if a woman is faking an orgasm

Actually, you're exactly wrong. The way you think GREATLY affects your brain. Your brain is not like a muscle. Just these last couple years new cognitive techniques are using what we know about neuroanatomy, neurochemistry and neurophysiology to treat diseases such as schizophrenia, OCD and PTSD.

Of course the way you think affects you! But we are not talking about thinking, we are talking about meditation. As you know, the process of meditation has very little to do with thinking.

Now think about this: These Indians. They obviously weren't idiots. They COULD have used a God, and seemingly would have IF it were helpful in their reaching their goals. I mean, they do describe things in ways that, for lack of a better term, is blatant superstition. But they decided against inventing a God.
Have you ever wondered why, in a world of Gods, they chose to specifically NOT include a God centerpiece?

Something to think about.

I wasn't aware that yoga was divorced from religion by Indians. Where did you get this impression?

A statue of Shiva in yogic meditation.

In whatever way a Hindu defines the goal of life, there are several methods (yogas) that sages have taught for reaching that goal. Texts dedicated to Yoga include the Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, and, as their philosophical and historical basis, the Upanishads. Paths that one can follow to achieve the spiritual goal of life (moksha, samadhi or nirvana) include:

* Bhakti Yoga (the path of love and devotion)
* Karma Yoga (the path of right action)
* Rāja Yoga (the path of meditation)
* Jñāna Yoga (the path of wisdom)[99]

An individual may prefer one or some yogas over others, according to his or her inclination and understanding. Some devotional schools teach that bhakti is the only practical path to achieve spiritual perfection for most people, based on their belief that the world is currently in the Kali Yuga (one of four epochs which are part of the Yuga cycle).[100] Practice of one yoga does not exclude others. Many schools believe that the different yogas naturally blend into and aid other yogas. For example, the practice of jnana yoga, is thought to inevitably lead to pure love (the goal of bhakti yoga), and vice versa.[101] Someone practicing deep meditation (such as in raja yoga) must embody the core principles of karma yoga, jnana yoga and bhakti yoga, whether directly or indirectly.

All the yoga instructors I know combine yoga with devotional lessons.

In fact:

The purposes of yoga and Tariqat-e-Naqshbandi (Sufi lifestyle) are apparently similar since both aim at achieving mystical union with the ultimate reality namely Brahma or Allah. Islamic mysticism is undoubtedly impacted by the uncanny Vedic and Buddhist influences desiring to achieve mystical union with the Supreme Being or as one may also call nirvana or fana (a term used by the Sufis).

Read more: Mind set: Yoga beyond religion - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...eligion/articleshow/4094415.cms#ixzz1Dd45Fzcm

 

[Michael]

Dude, as soon as I find my digital recorder, I am so going to try that at home.

I'll try and find a citation when I have a bit of time.

Of course the way you think affects you! But we are not talking about thinking, we are talking about meditation. As you know, the process of meditation has very little to do with thinking.

I suppose it's the word "thinking" that's a sticking point. The point is, depending on which areas of your brain are active, different outcomes will be achieved.

I wasn't aware that yoga was divorced from religion by Indians. Where did you get this impression?

It may not be divorced from religion, but, it's not predicated on it either. Also, my point was about a single deity who looks into your neural net, decodes the impulses, and passes judgment on said action potentials.


Yoga stretching and breathing can be practice with effective outcome without any belief in a deity. This suggests that the fundamental basis for yoga is something other than a deity. Can Islam be practiced effectively with out Allah?

 

[S.A.M.]

It may not be divorced from religion, but, it's not predicated on it either. Also, my point was about a single deity who looks into your neural net, decodes the impulses, and passes judgment on said action potentials.

You have to consider how yoga was practised. It was part of the system of knowledge that was exclusive to those who were permitted access to the scriptures. Education in India was exclusive, the domain of Brahmins and yogic education like all other religious education was parcelled out only as they permitted - to those who had access to the Vedas, the Gita and the Upanishads. What is unique about yoga is that even those who did not believe in the Vedas, like Jains and Buddhists, embraced yoga as a common tradition. Hence the Yoga Vashist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Vasishta

Yoga stretching and breathing can be practice with effective outcome without any belief in a deity. This suggests that the fundamental basis for yoga is something other than a deity. Can Islam be practiced effectively with out Allah?

Sure. You can practise anything in Islam by divorcing it from the religious aspect. Yoga is part and parcel of a wider Hindu system. When you learn it from yogis, you cannot learn only breathing and stretching. You observe all the rules which they consider important to the yogic experience. But any person can pick and choose what they want from the experience - it will not be the actual yoga experience, but then the goals are different. Similarly, you can learn the chants which make up the Islamic salat and go through the motions without any of it having any religious importance to you.

It is however interesting to see westerners who reject the rituals of the church, willingly embracing the rituals of Brahminical tradition in the pursuit of some mystical and esoteric realm

 

[Michael]

If the Islamic chants have no importance are they practiced effectively? IOWs what is their function if there is Zero belief in Allah?

Yoga, stretching and meditation can induce calm peace of mind without any knowledge of the religious aspect. That is, assuming mental peace is the point of these exercises. Which is why people teach Yoga divorced from religion. And why people practice Yoga without any need of Religion.

Does this happen in Islamic Chanting? If it's not the case that there are atheist Imam's who teach the chanting for some purpose, one must assume they are no longer effective. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[S.A.M.]

If the Islamic chants have no importance are they practiced effectively? IOWs what is their function if there is Zero belief in Allah?

Yoga, stretching and meditation can induce calm peace of mind without any knowledge of the religious aspect. That is, assuming mental peace is the point of these exercises. Which is why people teach Yoga divorced from religion. And why people practice Yoga without any need of Religion.

Does this happen in Islamic Chanting? If it's not the case that there are atheist Imam's who teach the chanting for some purpose, one must assume they are no longer effective. Wouldn't you agree?

Its my opinion that prayer is an end in itself. Its purpose is to destress calm and focus the mind. One thing I have noticed about people who pray faithfully and regularly is that not only are they healthier, but they are more peaceful. So I would say that it works. All the stretching and breathing which goes on is also beneficial, also in my opinion. There are 80 and 90 year olds who are spry and flexible because of a daily prayer regimen.

If you think its that easy, try it for a month or so. You'll discover joints and muscles you didn't know you had. You have to follow the exact instructions - no matter which madhab. I'd be interested to know if you could even take the salat position.

http://www.quranreading.com/ramadan/how-to-offer-salah.php

 

[wynn]

Its my opinion that prayer is an end in itself. Its purpose is to destress calm and focus the mind.

To destress, calm and focus the mind for what purpose?


I am asking you this because if we are to go with the idea that the "destressing, calming and focusing of the mind" is the aim of prayer, then I will have to call you an atheist.

 

[S.A.M.]

To destress, calm and focus the mind for what purpose?


I am asking you this because if we are to go with the idea that the "destressing, calming and focusing of the mind" is the aim of prayer, then I will have to call you an atheist.

Not at all. In Islam the purpose of prayer is not to ask, but to receive.

The purpose of being calm and destressing and focusing is to lead a better life and to behave well towards others. Lots of people have many notions about the purpose of prayer in Islam, but it would just be one opinion against another.

For example:

Why Do We Pray

A simple, conventional answer may be that we pray because our forefathers have been praying and told us to pray, just as we tell our children to pray. Or that we pray because God has asked us to pray. But for many people who are sincerely searching for a more meaningful answer, this may not be satisfactory. First of all, God has given us freedom of choice for everything, including prayer. So we do not have to pray if we do not want to. In fact, in good times, most of us don’t. Only when some personal tragedy strikes (or when we reach old age) that many of us start praying regularly.

For example, consider a plane full of people about to crash. In this helpless situation, every one will be praying for life and survival. If the situation seems completely hopeless, and they realize that they are going to loose their lives, people will be praying for God’s mercy, forgiveness, His pleasure, and personal salvation in the hereafter. But nevertheless, everyone will be trying his/her best to survive until the very end.

This instinct of self-survival is inherent in every living being, including humans. Other beings have defense mechanisms given by God for their survival. But humans find themselves helpless and defenseless against many living beings and natural catastrophes. Naturally primitive man tried to pray to them, as he had not developed tools for self-defense. He prayed to various natural objects that threatened or benefited his survival. When human beings developed tools for self-defense and gradually advanced in science, they tended to drift away from religion. They found security in science (rather than prayer) because science gave them control over the forces of nature. [Priesthood considered this attitude as an attack on religion itself. This led to a continuous battle of religion with science. History bears ample testimony to this continuous struggle. A classic example of this is the battle of creation versus evolution. But this is a whole new topic.]

Thus we see that there seems to be no single reason as to why people pray. Everyone can come up with his or her own answer and feel satisfied. In fact, this is what we normally do. But as we mentioned before, the answer that transcends space, time, circumstance and human emotion can only come from God (which means His book, the Qur’an.). This brings us to the following question.

http://www.parvez-video.com/insight/islam/prayers/index.asp

Basically prayer is a form of invocation which involves dhikr or remembrance of God. Its a kind of tool which people use to focus their spiritual needs. Which is why Muslims have a qibla - which in itself has nothing to do with God, it is merely a focal point for prayer.

One example of chanting which induces a state of meditation is the Hadra

A group dhikr ceremony in Arabic countries is usually called the Haḍra. In Turkey the group ceremony is called Zikr-i Kiyam. The Haḍra marks the climax of the Sufi's gathering regardless of any teaching or formal structure. Musically this structure includes several secular Arab genres and can last for hours.[18]

The Haḍra section consists of the ostinato-like repetition of the name of God over which the soloist performs a richly ornamented song. Often the climax is reached through cries of "Allah! Allah!" or "hu hu", with the participants bending forward while exhaling and stand straight while inhaling.

Another is Sama

Sama' is a means of meditating on God through focusing on melodies and dancing. It brings out a person's love of God, purifies the soul, and is a way of finding God. This practice is said to reveal what is already in one's heart, rather than creating emotions.[1] All of a person's doubt disappears, and the heart and soul can communicate directly with God.[7] The immediate goal of sama' is to reach wajd, which is a trance-like state of ecstasy.[8] Physically, this state may include various and unexpected movements, agitation, and all types of dancing.[1] Another state that people hope to reach through sama' is khamra, which means "spiritual drunkenness". Ultimately, people hope to achieve the unveiling of mysteries and gain spiritual knowledge through wajd.[9] Sometimes, the experience of wajd becomes so strong that fainting or even, in extreme circumstances, death, occurs.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I read an interesting article on the statistical correlation between school violence and taking prayer out of school. I'll see if I can find it - apparently prayer was removed from US schools in 1962 [citation anyone?] this is the same year when there was a spike in various indicators of social aggression and behavioural problems in school children.

That must have been the schools in Alabama. There was no prayer in the schools in Illinois that I attended from 1949-1952, and none in the schools in Arizona from 1952-1960.

Now that I've pointed that out, I will also point out another instance of your trademark intellectual dishonesty. As a self-identified scientist, there's no way that you cannot be familiar with the Fallacy of Correlation: Post hoc ergo propter hoc, or "Correlation implies causation" in English.

Considering that 1959 was the year when The First Baby Boomer became a teenager, it's hardly remarkable that by 1963 that generation's impact on American culture began to escalate from hula hoops and rock'n'roll music to the full-blown Generation Gap. The Sexual Revolution, the peace marches, the civil rights demonstrations, the motorcycles, the drugs, Women's Liberation, the backlash against religion, the popularity of political science classes--all of these social upheavals were either already underway or just around the corner.

What you're seeing (the Sexual Revolution and other disorderly behavior) is just one of the early symptoms, and what you regard as its cause (the backlash against religion) is just another one. The Generation Gap would not have happened so easily if the Baby Boomers' teachers, who got their degrees in the 1940s and were influenced by the ultra-liberal (and at that time quite small) academic class weren't spreading that influence.

 

[Michael]

I just want to make sure I have SAM correctly. The benefits of Islamic chanting are in no way connected to a belief in God. IOWs, Islamic chanting is no more and no less effective than Scientology Chanting and/or simply Chanting words you have no idea what they mean?

It's just the act of Chanting itself?

I mention this because the Buddhist sect in Japan where the shitty movie that had Tom Cruse as the "Last Samurai" (you know that movie? It sucked). Anyway, that huge temple in the movie. That type of Buddhism is founded on a single word chant. They say it's Buddha's name and has "special" (aka superstitious) properties ( but of course those of us, like me and you, Signal and Fraggle, we're not superstitious in that way, so WE know this isn't true - it's just a word). I agree repeating it over and over calms the mind. I also agree this has nothing at all to do with superstition. There is a physical basis for this. People have used chanting as a meditative technique, probably from a time before religion as we know it, even existed.

So, once again, any benefits of Islamic chanting have nothing at all to do with Allah. Correct?

 

[Michael]

There's a strong correlation between the introduction of TV and violence. It's been suggested many Baby Boomers were plopped in front of the TV (convenient baby sitter) and were never properly socialized. As an example, cities of equal size where TV was introduced 4 years later, had a corresponding 500%+ increase crime ~18 years + 4 as neighboring cities who had the TV 4 years earlier (that data match across many cities in the USA this way). While we can't run an experiment, I'd say this is as good of proof as we're going to get.

The Gods only know what the internet is doing.......

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I just want to make sure I have SAM correctly. The benefits of Islamic chanting are in no way connected to a belief in God. IOWs, Islamic chanting is no more and no less effective than Scientology Chanting and/or simply Chanting words you have no idea what they mean? It's just the act of Chanting itself?

EFT, the Emotional Freedom Technique, uses a form of chanting as therapy. You set up your own chant, in the structure:

Even though [insert something you do, think, etc., that you'd like to change,] I truly and profoundly respect myself.​

You repeat it while making a cycle of taps on a prescribed set of acupressure points on your head and upper body.

Eventually you get some insight into what/why/how it's bothering you and you modify the chant a little in response to that. You reiterate this cycle for a while and you'll very likely make some progress. People have gotten over things like arachnophobia this way. I've certainly used it to great advantage. I've got a 40-page notebook of revelations from EFT sessions.

There's no religion to it and you don't even have to use the standard form of the sentence. You can put it together any way you want so long as you keep repeating it.

Chanting is powerful. If you're chanting words in a language you don't understand, there is still something going on in your head.

 

[S.A.M.]

That must have been the schools in Alabama. There was no prayer in the schools in Illinois that I attended from 1949-1952, and none in the schools in Arizona from 1952-1960.

Now that I've pointed that out, I will also point out another instance of your trademark intellectual dishonesty. As a self-identified scientist, there's no way that you cannot be familiar with the Fallacy of Correlation: Post hoc ergo propter hoc, or "Correlation implies causation" in English..

Of course I know correlation != causation. Which was my point.

I just want to make sure I have SAM correctly. The benefits of Islamic chanting are in no way connected to a belief in God. IOWs, Islamic chanting is no more and no less effective than Scientology Chanting and/or simply Chanting words you have no idea what they mean?

It's just the act of Chanting itself?

To some extent. Its my opinion that a strong faith goes a long way to determining the extent of success of any behaviour modification process. If you don't believe in something, does it still work? Probably, because in psychology they teach you that the act of smiling, even if you don't feel like it, can make you feel happier, by influencing your emotions. There are some studies [botox related ones, for example] which corroborate this.

 

[Michael]

To some extent. Its my opinion that a strong faith goes a long way to determining the extent of success of any behaviour modification process. If you don't believe in something, does it still work? Probably, because in psychology they teach you that the act of smiling, even if you don't feel like it, can make you feel happier, by influencing your emotions. There are some studies [botox related ones, for example] which corroborate this.

I think it depends on the behavior processes being modified.

Breathing meditation is not the same as smiling exercises. Different areas of the brain, different outcomes. Breathing stimulates the Parietal lobe where as smiling would necessarily active the motor cortex (and is more than likely a hormonal response). Teaching a child to fear, would active the amygdala. etc...

So, the neural modification is completely dependent on how the brain is used - or not used much, the case for the majority of people.

 

[chimpkin]

EFT, the Emotional Freedom Technique, uses a form of chanting as therapy. You set up your own chant, in the structure:
Even though [insert something you do, think, etc., that you'd like to change,] I truly and profoundly respect myself.

OOOH!

I never heard of that! I can really use it!

*Wahoos idea like a shoplifted sixpack of Shiner and runs for the exit.*

 

[S.A.M.]

I think it depends on the behavior processes being modified.

Breathing meditation is not the same as smiling exercises. Different areas of the brain, different outcomes. Breathing stimulates the Parietal lobe where as smiling would necessarily active the motor cortex (and is more than likely a hormonal response). Teaching a child to fear, would active the amygdala. etc...

So, the neural modification is completely dependent on how the brain is used - or not used much, the case for the majority of people.

A bit off topic but since we're talking behaviour modification :

Like everyone who studies performance, I'm indebted to the extraordinary Anders Ericsson, arguably the world's leading researcher into high performance. For more than two decades, Ericsson has been making the case that it's not inherited talent which determines how good we become at something, but rather how hard we're willing to work — something he calls "deliberate practice." Numerous researchers now agree that 10,000 hours of such practice is the minimum necessary to achieve expertise in any complex domain.

That notion is wonderfully empowering. It suggests we have remarkable capacity to influence our own outcomes. But that's also daunting. One of Ericsson's central findings is that practice is not only the most important ingredient in achieving excellence, but also the most difficult and the least intrinsically enjoyable.

If you want to be really good at something, it's going to involve relentlessly pushing past your comfort zone, as well as frustration, struggle, setbacks and failures. That's true as long as you want to continue to improve, or even maintain a high level of excellence. The reward is that being really good at something you've earned through your own hard work can be immensely satisfying.

http://blogs.hbr.org/schwartz/2010/08/six-keys-to-being-excellent-at.html

While this is about talent vs effort, I think its relevant to the importance of quantity and intensity of a process, over quality.

Or as Aristotle said, " we are what we repeatedly do"

Breathing meditation is not the same as smiling exercises. Different areas of the brain, different outcomes

Voluntary vs involuntary? Cognitive vs instinctive? Where would you put meditation? aggression? practice? habit?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

OOOH! I never heard of that! I can really use it!

It won't do you much good without the acupressure tapping points. Here's a chart: http://eftbytelephone.com/tapping-points.html

It wouldn't hurt to set up one appointment with a telephone practitioner, just to make sure you're on the right track. He or she will probably charge you around sixty bucks (US) for an hour. I worked with a telephone therapist for several months before I started just doing it by myself.

 

[wynn]

( but of course those of us, like me and you, Signal and Fraggle, we're not superstitious in that way, so WE know this isn't true - it's just a word)

Ha! Leave me out of this company!! :bugeye:



And I like "The last samurai". I have the dvd, it is one of my favorite films and I have seen it at least five times.

 

[S.A.M.]

Ha! Leave me out of this company!! :bugeye:
.

Me too!

I believe there must be a reason why chants are so popular across many religions and societies [e.g. Gregorian chants, mantras, dhikr]

I don't think we know enough about the effects of sounds on the brain to make such sweeping statements as "its just a word"

 

[wynn]

I don't think we know enough about the effects of sounds on the brain to make such sweeping statements as "its just a word"

And I raise you with Vedic sound:

Vedic Conception of Sound in Four Features
In the Vedantic traditions sound is considered one of the most important principles of existence, as it is both the source of matter and the key to become free from it. One who can thoroughly understand the four stages of sound as explained in the Vedic texts can utilize this science to become free from the bondage of matter.

When trying to understand the four levels of sound, we must first understand what is "sound" as defined in the scriptures.
source

Science and Vedic Sound

Chronic disease affects 45 percent of working age adults according to a study by Catherine Hoffman published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1996. While the modern biomedical approach has been somewhat effective in managing acute illness, the management of chronic disease has not been as successful.

Individuals suffering from chronic disorders continue to require medications and to experience symptoms of their disease for many years or decades. This indicates that modern medicine’s approach to chronic disease is incomplete, and inadequate to restore health to these individuals. Maharishi's Vedic Vibration Technology (MVVT) seeks to address their chronic disorders.

The MVVT program is one aspect of Maharishi's Vedic Medicine, which is both an ancient and ultramodern system of medicine. It combines the wisdom of Veda and the Vedic Literature (described by the Encyclopedia Britannica as the oldest system of knowledge in the world), with a quantum mechanical understanding of the human body.

From the perspective of quantum field theory, all matter is ultimately vibration. The body is understood to be a complex waveform, the sum total of many smaller waves or vibrations. These fundamental frequencies are excitations of universal fields. All of these fields are in turn the expression of a single underlying field, called a superstring field, or unified field in modern quantum field theory.

Similarly, for thousands of years, Vedic Science has also held that all life forms are vibrations of an underlying field of Yoga -- which means unity. From both viewpoints, health is the integrated and balanced state of all the vibrations which make up the individual, while disease is seen as some lack of balance of the fundamental frequencies that constitute the body.
source