What does it mean to have Random Mutations?

[Bishadi]

Random means: "proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern" and is the counter to the original survival of the fittest notions of Darwin.

nice a

Mutation means: "a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome" ...

catching aids

or even a mole and freckles

i have even seen mutations by radiation

do they convey in procreations?

I see more blonds in so cal, then in the middle east

and more with aids, and sickle cell in africa

is the environment having anything to do with any of these?

Original biological evolutionary writings and doctrine were filled with the notion of aim, reason, and purpose to biological evolution, but that was later replaced with the notion of no aim, no reason, and no purpose: random mutation.

hence the uncertainty principle is like a fart; just butt-burps putting a stink in the air

and lot's of people can smell the stink, but as ooooosual the originators are the last to accept the responsibility

 

[GeoffP]

i have even seen mutations by radiation

do they convey in procreations?

If in the germ line, yes. These are rarer proportionally than somatic anomalies.

I see more blonds in so cal, then in the middle east

and more with aids, and sickle cell in africa

is the environment having anything to do with any of these?

With those? Some but not too much, comparatively.

hence the uncertainty principle is like a fart; just butt-burps putting a stink in the air

and lot's of people can smell the stink, but as ooooosual the originators are the last to accept the responsibility

Impressive. This was the first time that I've ever seen offensive bodily noises compared to mutation and drift.

Please, God, let it be the last.

 

[DRZion]

If in the germ line, yes. These are rarer proportionally than somatic anomalies.

I believe these are termed lesions , as I learned earlier this week. Lesions get repaired, and in bacterial cells this is the only difference between a lesion and a mutation- the lesions get repaired while mutations are passed on.

Mutations aren't 100% random, they are usually centered around hot spots. There are different types of mutating mechanisms and mutagens, and they usually act at specific sites in DNA.

 

[Bishadi]

If in the germ line, yes. These are rarer proportionally than somatic anomalies.

so an evolution, and it wasn't random.............

With those? Some but not too much, comparatively.

i agree, comparing our last few hundred years of measuring with a few billion is peanuts.

Impressive. This was the first time that I've ever seen offensive bodily noises compared to mutation and drift.

likewise, you drifted from the comprehension that causality is not based on anything random; your comment was kind of mutation in itself (twisting up conveyed information with your words)



Please, let it be the last.

 

[Bishadi]

Mutations aren't 100% random, they are usually centered around hot spots.

so is there a flavor to mutations that focusing on random hot spots?

There are different types of mutating mechanisms and mutagens, and they usually act at specific sites in DNA.

mutegens.......... is that like a carcinogen that is randomly causing a change

 

[thinking]

“ There are different types of mutating mechanisms and mutagens, and they usually act at specific sites in DNA. ”

mutegens.......... is that like a carcinogen that is randomly causing a change

I disagree

actually wouldn't carcinogen that causes change be more about what is vulnerable to change , rather than random change ?

I think so

 

[GeoffP]

so an evolution, and it wasn't random.............

No, an evolution, and it was random.

i agree, comparing our last few hundred years of measuring with a few billion is peanuts.

I said nothing of the kind. Where did the original blond gene come from? Special creation?

likewise, you drifted from the comprehension that causality is not based on anything random; your comment was kind of mutation in itself (twisting up conveyed information with your words)

Likewise, your comment had not the slightest to do with anything. Why don't you just state what your position on random mutation is clearly? I infer that you don't believe in it, but beyond that no reasons of yours are evident.

Please, let it be the last.

I regret to inform you that it will not.

 

[iceaura]

Random means: "proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern" and is the counter to the original survival of the fittest notions of Darwin.

The "survival of the fittest" notion is not "counter" to the existence or relative prevalence of random mutations. The degree of randomness in the variations selected for "fitness" is not specified, but is certainly greater than none - and can easily be total.

Mutation means: "a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome" ...

In the context of this discussion, the mutation is the change in the gene or chromosome. Any observed change from the parent type would be the somatic expression of it. There may be no expression of a given mutation - it may make no difference at all.

{attribution corrected, abject apologies}

 

[GeoffP]

so is there a flavor to mutations that focusing on random hot spots?

He said hot spots, not random hot spots. Give it a shake.

mutegens.......... is that like a carcinogen that is randomly causing a change

Yes.

 

[thinking]

“ Originally Posted by Bishadi
so an evolution, and it wasn't random............. ”

No, an evolution, and it was random.

no it isn't

evolution is not random

 

[GeoffP]

Well, actually a fair proportion of it probably is. There've been a few meta-analyses of selection and drift in the past; all sort of whistling past the graveyard, but they're probably not far wrong.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Mutation means: "a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome" ...

Where did you get that definition? I’ve never seen phenotype included in any definition of ‘mutation’. I distinctly remember the definition that was given to me way back as a genetics student at uni.....

“A mutation is a heritable change in DNA sequence.”

This definition is totally independent of any effects on phenotype. And, interestingly, the word “heritable” in that sentence means that any change to DNA sequence in a somatic cell is not, by that definition, a "mutation".

 

[Bishadi]

No, an evolution, and it was random.



I said nothing of the kind. Where did the original blond gene come from? Special creation?



Likewise, your comment had not the slightest to do with anything. Why don't you just state what your position on random mutation is clearly? I infer that you don't believe in it, but beyond that no reasons of yours are evident.



I regret to inform you that it will not.

jeff...........


some observe the accepted BELIEFs of the uncertainty principle underlying todays physics

i don't

to me: random is not an option

what else do you want me to say!

i do not walk the planck and why i am not drowning with the idea of random chaotic maybes

i am far too causal with reality and the sciences

you don't have to like it

 

[Bishadi]

Well, actually a fair proportion of it probably is.

and your "probably" wrong in all cases were the cause of the change is identified

There've been a few meta-analyses of selection and drift in the past; all sort of whistling past the graveyard, but they're probably not far wrong.

random lives in the graveyard; when causality is identified

ie... where is ptolemy's math NOW

 

[DRZion]

The "survival of the fittest" notion is not "counter" to the existence or relative prevalence of random mutations. The degree of randomness in the variations selected for "fitness" is not specified, but is certainly greater than none - and can easily be total.

and

no it isn't

evolution is not random

Its hard to argue there is no selection, but it seems that selection is only one part of evolution.

He said hot spots, not random hot spots.

Yes, hot spots are particular sequences in DNA that are affected by more mutations than others. The reasons are several - some mutations are the result of natural processes in the cell, others are caused by transposons that only recognize specific sequences. Even DNA mimics work only on certain bases by mis-pairing with a different nucleotide. I do not think I have learned of any mutation that would be 100% independent of the sequence on which it acts.

 

[iceaura]

Its hard to argue there is no selection, but it seems that selection is only one part of evolution.

Yes, and - ?

The standard shorthand formulation is 1) heritable variations appear 2) culling happens.

 

[DRZion]

Yes, and - ?

The standard shorthand formulation is 1) heritable variations appear 2) culling happens.

You are misquoting me in post #68 unless its from another thread.

The culling only happens in a part of the changes, very often even a strongly beneficial mutation is lost among a large amount of random variation.

 

[iceaura]

The culling only happens in a part of the changes, very often even a strongly beneficial mutation is lost among a large amount of random variation.

In which case no evolution occurs.

(attribution fixed above)

 

[Bishadi]

The culling only happens in a part of the changes, very often even a strongly beneficial mutation is lost among a large amount of random variation.

kind of like what i see all over; the culling of idea, even the good ones; get lost in the random

 

[GeoffP]

and your "probably" wrong in all cases were the cause of the change is identified

Bishadi, your intricate grasp of the blindingly obvious staggers me. OF COURSE it isn't random where a cause can be assigned at some reasonable level of significance. Are you congenitally stupid?