What is death?

bebelina,

I didn´t say that the physical world proves the non-physical by merely existing. Though it does, but only after you already have gotten proof for the non-physical.
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You must know that that is an entirely circular argument and completely invalid.

If you have proof then show it, if it is just a personal conviction then prove you are not deluded. Either way you have made a claim and must offer an acceptable proof if you are to be believed.

Cris
 
Cris, you are so very welcome to believe that I´m deluded...:D
Maybe that is what it takes to understand these things. ;)
Yes, it´s circular at first, unless you stick your head in it, then you can begin to grasp the vast realities beyond the physical illusion. The thought can open your mind, litterally.
I don´t know how to prove anything to you, and even if I were to find out any proof , you would dismiss it immediately, because you are reluctant to broaden your mind, or even acknowledge the necessity of such a behaviour, and that is what it takes to recognise the proof as real.
You can never get proof unless you change your way of viewing the world, it´s as simple as that. And it´s a very hard task to change your worldview, and even harder to be so selfaware to admit that it´s necessary.
And you don´t have to believe me, you have free will...;)
I wouldn´t want anybody to just believe me either, I would get very suspicious if someone just turned straight around and suddenly just agreed. Proof will come from you, when you are ready to see them. Are you ready to change your worldview to get proof? Just try it, for a few minutes each day, to get the feel of it, as a scientific test. ;) How much of a scientist are you? Do you dare? :D
 
Proof will come by changing my view of the world!?!?

My world view is to except only what there is evidence to support. That is the only way there is reason to believe anything. You're accusing chris (and probaly me) of not having a broad mind. I dont see you being very open minded. Why don't you try applying logic (non-circualar that is) to some of your arguements. You say you have proof of the non-material but what is it based on. Everyone has to have a reason to believe something my reason is evidence can you give me any.
 
Bebelina,

I don´t know how to prove anything to you, and even if I were to find out any proof , you would dismiss it immediately, because you are reluctant to broaden your mind, or even acknowledge the necessity of such a behaviour, and that is what it takes to recognise the proof as real.
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You appear to be judging me and I don’t think you know enough about me yet to be able to do that with any confidence of accuracy.

Note that I have not accused you of being deluded, but have suggested you show the difference between what you believe and a delusion. Now I do recognize the problem that if the delusion is complete then the deluded person will have no way to know that they are deluded or not. And that is really the question you must ask yourself. How do you know you are not deluded? What test can you perform that can convince you that what you believe is true? Convincing others or me is an entirely different matter.

From what you have said I don’t believe that you do have any way to know that you are not deluded. If true then you need to assess the probability of an understandable delusion and a fantastic claim that a non-material realm exists.

You can never get proof unless you change your way of viewing the world, it’s as simple as that. And it’s a very hard task to change your worldview, and even harder to be so selfaware to admit that it’s necessary.

Are you ready to change your worldview to get proof? Just try it, for a few minutes each day, to get the feel of it, as a scientific test. How much of a scientist are you? Do you dare?
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What is it that you would have me try?

Will it help you to realize that I have been Yogic-flying since 1987? No probably not, but that fact might give you an indication of how I ‘m prepared to consider anything. Perhaps I should also list the many weird things I have tried. Well, maybe not yet.

Cris
 
Cris, I´m sorry if I judged you, but we have been down this road many times before. But please do list the weird things you have done. :p

As I said earlier, you don´t have to believe me at all...:)
I know what I know and if I´m deluded then so be it, what´s really the difference form being not-deluded? Who can tell who is what, and from what perspective? You seem equally deluded to me.

I have many clairvoyant dreams for example, but can I hear you laughing already....or at least smirking. ;)
I speak with my dead grandfather and other dead relatives in my dreams. They give me advice and warnings. I prevented my cousins daughter from jumping off a high building by dreaming of it first. I instantly emailed my cousin in the morning, but she wasn´t at home to read the mail. When she got home and read it, she was shocked, because her daughter had actually tried to jump off a high building, but she caught her in time. Sure, it can be a coincidence, so can everything, or she got the message anyway, by telepathy perhaps, so that she could prevent the child from jumping.
And this really disturbes even me, because I don´t want to think that the future is set, but so some degree it seems to be.
My grandmother and I both saw the ghost of my grandfather the day before his funeral. He just walked by us in the hallway. I have seen my fathers dog after she died, standing in my kitchen. And once I got an inner vision of where the lotto tickets were when I had no idea where they were. ( I had not put them there, nor seen when the person put them there, and it´s not a usual place)
Memories of previous reincarnations.
There are many incidents...many forgotten even. :)
It has mostly to do with feelings of trust and love, not so much intellectual scrutinizing, even though you can get pretty far by that alone too, but not all the way.

Yes Albatross, you must beleive to get proof. :) So why not try? What are you afraid of? Of actually getting proof? :D
 
Im still not quite getting what this proof in the supernatural is based on. Im getting the impression that your trying to tell me that if i believe in the supernatural it will prove itself. Not only is this another circular argument it goes against everything i know and have ever seen.
 
That´s the point! If it didn´t go against everything you believed before, then no change would be necessary, right? :D
 
bebelina,

but can I hear you laughing already....or at least smirking.
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Neither, I'm just very curious.

I have to sleep now. More on the morrow.

Take care
Cris
 
Bebelina,

Sorry, catching up with other threads and it was my first day back at work today after a 3 week vacation.

Cris
 
It is just as smart as your arguments because when you throw out the circular logic all that left is you accusations that im closed minded. Same as what i said. ;)
 
When did I accuse you for being close-minded?
The circular logic isn´t circular when you understand it, and it takes a bit of confusing to get there. The thought of the circular is evolving for the mind.
:)
 
Bebelina, you're definitely a space cadet. (That's a good thing.)
 
you are reluctant to broaden your mind
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I'd say thats calling me closed minded. ;)

The circular logic isn´t circular when you understand it
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Thats another circular arguement because it only holds if it assumes itself true and then tries to prove itself.

Your arguements are so circular that i get dizzy reading them.

ALL HAIL BEBELINA GODESS OF CIRCULAR LOGIC!!!!!!
 
Oh, you morons....you twist everything I say to fit your NARROW and CLOSE MINDED worldview. :p
I never said that Mech, read again and insert brain before you do it. :D
The circular logic is meant to make you dizzy so that I can attack you while you are unconscious with my amazing ideas, that you willfully will accept under dizzy circumstances, and then wake up like a new person, totally brainwashed! :D

But what if the only way to get proof is to let your thought slide into areas unknown to your consciousness so far, are you then willing to go there to get proof, that you so dearly want? :bugeye:
 
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