What moral right does an atheist have?

It all depends on how happy one is with the way one currently lives - how happy one is with the way one thinks, feels, speaks and acts.

If you're happy and see no problems - then this is just the way it is for you.

If you're posting at a forum wondering about these things, then perhaps you aren't so happy, and perhaps you do feel there is a problem or two.
Honestly, I am a fairly happy person overall. Sure, life has it's ups and downs - but I really can't complain.

I'm here to find out why some people want to force their mythology into the science classes of the public school system and I want to know why other people want to vote them into office. Why do they deny the validity of science on one hand, and then try to use it to promote their religious agenda on the other?
 
I'm here to find out why some people want to force their mythology into the science classes of the public school system and I want to know why other people want to vote them into office. Why do they deny the validity of science on one hand, and then try to use it to promote their religious agenda on the other?

I think we've already talked about that, and you said that your concern in this is the taxpayers' money.

Other than that, surely you should - also - go and ask the people whose actions you are commenting on above.

My guess is that those things have nothing to do with religion, but everything with politics and personal power plays.

Just like you, everyone just wants to bounce their ball.
 
Not really. Our understanding of it may be subject to change, and it may vary from person to person based on individual genetics...

I have the impression that you disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing with me.
You often find something to quibble over and then argue against a point I have never made, while you pretend I made it and judge me for it, advising me to "check my reading comprehension" and such.

:rolleyes:
 
I'm here to find out why some people want to force their mythology into the science classes of the public school system and I want to know why other people want to vote them into office. Why do they deny the validity of science on one hand, and then try to use it to promote their religious agenda on the other?

How about finding out why you are so sure that you are right and that everyone who doesn't think the way you do, is wrong?
 
We notice that acting in one way makes us happy, and acting in another way makes us unhappy. This has something to do with the way the Universe works. We can understand morality practically.

Sadists are at their happiest when inflicting pain on victims. It seems to me that subjective feelings about an action are only part of the consideration.

I expected a reply like this, and it points to a core factor of your line of reasoning: namely, that we are alien to the Universe (so that the laws of the Universe do not hold for the workings of our bodies and minds); or that the Universe doesn't really have any laws, and so anything can make anyone happy, or sad.

I posit that the sadist's happiness is not true happiness; a Universe in which one person's true happiness would come at the cost of another's true happiness, would be a lawless Universe or one in which we are alien.

I argue that neither is the case, and that instead one being's true happiness does not take anything away from another's true happiness, and that there is regularity in the Universe.


That's not true. For God to be a conscious responsible being he must have a subjective experience of himself. To define the problem out of existence is to misunderstand it. The power to make your ideas about morality divine law is still a subjective exercise of discretion. If God himself is not subject to our ordinary ideas about the subjective-objective dichotomy, than he is also not subject to anything we can conceive of when we talk about good and evil, as we ourselves believe we must conform to some objective standard outside ourselves. If such a standard does not apply to god, than to call god good, or to say that he is the source of morality, leaves us with a narrative about morality that is explicitly unknowable.

You are describing a demigod or an alien god.
God, with the capital G, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is in charge of the workings of the Universe, so per definition. For God, the problem you describe does not apply; it applies for a demigod who would mistakenly be assumed to be God.


Why do we want to explain morality?

It is something that is very important to understand. Even Hitler believed that he was a moral man. In fact, humans habitually use moral justifications for almost everything they do. If one can understand and explain morality, even if you just conclude that it is nothing more than a tool that people use to assuage their consciences or to manipulate others, we have made an invaluable contribution to our understanding of human behavior, and can then better defend ourselves against tyrants.

Okay, for now.


The law of identity. A is A. If it were not the case than you would have no more cause to address this line of argument to me than to a potted plant, or to your neighbors cat. We simply cannot escape ourselves. For arguments sake, if consciousness did survive after death in any sense, it by definition would have to be wholly alien from what we currently understand it to be. There is no doubt that if I reincarnated as a frog, my experience of myself would be infinitely unrelated in any meaningful sense to what I currently understand as "me".

It is not clear whether this would be the case.
Thomas Nagel elaborated on this problem in the famous What is it like to be a bat?


This sounds deterministic to me. If reality has some in built mechanism of distributive justice than the whole concept of there being an objective morality is a moot point.

It is precisely because there is an inbuilt mechanism of cause and effect, that we can talk about objective morality.


No matter what we do, karma will take care of the loose ends. Nonetheless, it wouldn't explain why one action is good while another is evil.

Good is that which is in line with our true nature, and evil is that which is not; good is that which leads to true happiness, and evil is that which doesn't.

This is so because God made it so.


Of course, I might go one step further by pointing out that if reincarnation were real than death in effect would be an illusion and it wouldn't be possible to "kill" anything.

Of course. What gets disabled or killed is the body, not the person (who resides in the body and who reincarnates, ie. takes on new bodies).


It is the simple fact that by depriving the liberty of another being in the moment, you are depriving them of the ability to deprive you of liberty simultaneously.

Which seems to be the reason why people kill.


Whereas curiosity, respect, empathy, and mutual exchange can happen between two parties at once. It is immoral to initiate force. It is moral to abstain from violence as a means of getting what you want.

So your criterion for moral action seems to be, if I understood you correctly:
"Moral action is the kind of action that can be performed by all, without anyone being obstructed in their efforts by others' efforts."

This seems to be allright.

But your examples of such moral action - curiosity and mutual exchange - seem to work only for a small number of people at a time, as little as two at a time.

What if two people both want a mutual exchange with a third person, and the third person wants a mutual exchange with both, but each person can have only one exchange at a time? Then there will be competition, and competition is not moral!
 
I posit that the sadist's happiness is not true happiness; a Universe in which one person's true happiness would come at the cost of another's true happiness, would be a lawless Universe..
I presume that by 'lawless' you actually mean 'godless'?
In other words, you can't accept the possibility that no god exists.

..competition is not moral!
Seriously? What is amoral about competition an sich?
 
I presume that by 'lawless' you actually mean 'godless'?

By "lawless," I mean 'lawless.'


In other words, you can't accept the possibility that no god exists.

You are saying that, not I.


Seriously? What is amoral about competition an sich?

Psyche seems to be arguing that competition is not moral. We'll see what she/he has to say on the matter.
 
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Well, the laws of physics remain unchallenged. So the question that remains is "what laws are you talking about?"

The laws according to which a person is either happy, or not; the laws acording to which a person thinks something is meaningful, or isn't.
 
I think we've already talked about that, and you said that your concern in this is the taxpayers' money.

Other than that, surely you should - also - go and ask the people whose actions you are commenting on above.

My guess is that those things have nothing to do with religion, but everything with politics and personal power plays.

Just like you, everyone just wants to bounce their ball.
Here is where many of those people are. And yes, it has everything to do with their religious beliefs. And it's not only about tax payer's money, it is about the world I have to live in. I prefer an educated public over a superstitious public.
 
How about finding out why you are so sure that you are right and that everyone who doesn't think the way you do, is wrong?
I feel that science should be taught in the science class, math in the math class, literature in the literature class and something as personal as religion should be taught at home. Even if I was religious, I wouldn't want the government teaching their version of religion to my kids.
 
I feel that science should be taught in the science class, math in the math class, literature in the literature class and something as personal as religion should be taught at home. Even if I was religious, I wouldn't want the government teaching their version of religion to my kids.

Not everyone has the kind of understanding of what religion is about as you.

Why should your understanding of religion be accepted above all others?
 
I have the impression that you disagree with me just for the sake of disagreeing with me.
You often find something to quibble over and then argue against a point I have never made, while you pretend I made it and judge me for it, advising me to "check my reading comprehension" and such.

:rolleyes:
Then you may want to choose your words a little more carefully. Face it, we both know that eating healthy eating is what it is, and we both know that our understanding of it is evolving.

See, I don't take everything I hear as absolute fact. I take everything as conditional, our current understanding based on the evidence we currently have - all subject to change upon discovery of new data.

Unlike some people's religion - nothing is written in stone.
 
Not everyone has the kind of understanding of what religion is about as you.

Why should your understanding of religion be accepted above all others?
It shouldn't. That's why parents should teach their kids about it themselves.
 
Then you may want to choose your words a little more carefully.

Always blaming me, huh?
I guess it's the ultimate winning strategy. :bugeye:


Face it, we both know that eating healthy eating is what it is, and we both know that our understanding of it is evolving.

See, I don't take everything I hear as absolute fact. I take everything as conditional, our current understanding based on the evidence we currently have - all subject to change upon discovery of new data.

Unlike some people's religion - nothing is written in stone.

Your conviction that you are already right is, quite apparently, written in stone.
 
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