What to HATE, What NOT to TOLERATE & Islam.

[Vienna]

It's all the same deity!

Wrong - Jesus is not accepted by Muslims as the only way to God and there ends all Christian connection with the Islamic God (Who just happens to be the modern day version of the Moon God).

Christians do not believe in pagan Gods.

 

[Flores]

Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah, and whoever obeys the ruler I appoint, obeys me, and whoever disobeys him, disobeys me.

That's nice and all, but how the hell can you obey a dead person? The prophet above, if he indeed said such a thing, was talking to a group of people around him who could listen to his live voice and obey. He is obviously not talking from behind the grave curtain to billion of muslims thousands of years later. Nice brain washing technique though for those weak in the noggin and susceptible to fear.

 

[Flores]

I'm only 3 and 1/2 years old. HAHAHAHAHA!!! Well if we're all born "submitters" then why doesn't allah say so?

God tells us in the Quran that submission to the one god is an intrinsic nature of human being that we were created with. Islam is the natural religion of human beings, anything else is self made.

[30.30] Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know--
[30.31] Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists
[30.32] Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
[30.33] And when harm afflicts men, they call upon their Lord, turning to Him, then when He makes them taste of mercy from Him, lo! some of them begin to associate (others) with their Lord,
[30.34] So as to be ungrateful for what We have given them; but enjoy yourselves (for a while), for you shall soon come to know.

You make it sound like allah is the ONLY god who created "submitters".

God is the only creator. Allah means, "Only one worthy of worship". Some people worship stone, others worship fire, others worship nature, others worship the sun......the god I talk about has created all these things that others may select for worship....and Allah is the only god worthy of worship.

 

[DoctorNO]

Please show me in the bible where it says that Buddhists, Hindus, pagans, athiests and agnostics are classified as unbelievers.

Nobody is saying that they are. So what is your point?

And by your own definition of unbelievers there NO, athiests ARE unbelievers by choice.

Everyone who heard about islam and did not embrace it is an unbeliever by choice. Right?

And you forgot to post this little bit of the Quran, where it deals with non-muslims, telling Muslims to be kind to non-muslims:

"Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. (Quran, 60:8)"

My friend look at the underlined words. That command is specific only to non-religious conflicts.

My assertions are well documented in history and the present NO.

Then why cant you show us any neutral authoritative source of such documentation, eh? Please back up your claims.

My source is biased because you see it as being biased.

No, it is biased because of its Hindu religious agenda.

It was a common practice to call natives "satan" and to tell them that unless they converted,

Evidences please. You are the only person I heard saying that. Common shmormn.

for only the converted were saved and loved.

“For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever may believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life” – Bible John 3:16.

“JESUS LOVES YOU” – Car bumper stickers.

It is a commonly known fact that Christians forced native people to convert.

So? That is the only truth you mentioned in your post.

The source that I used only details the experiences of the people in India and it gives general discussion of the disgusting practices used to force people to convert. It happened all over the world.

If true it is only an isolated case. And stick with the topic…your assertion that missionaries proclaimed that god don’t love unbelievers.

The above is written by a Presbytarian (a minister non the less) on the real meanings of a Christian mission and how many Christian nations defiled that meaning with their practices of forced conversion of natives. Or would you classify that as being biased as well?

I would classify that as IRRELEVANT. It does not support your assertion that missionaries proclaimed that god don’t love unbelievers.

I'd suggest you read some history books on the colonisation of the world. Start with British and Spanish colonisation.

I suggest you stay on focus.

 

[DoctorNO]

God tells us in the Quran that submission to the one god is an intrinsic nature of human being that we were created with. Islam is the natural religion of human beings, anything else is self made.

Intrinsic nature? Then please explain why monotheism only came into existence in the last 3000 years. And why only the jews came to invent this idea.

On the otherhand people were polytheists everywhere else. In Europe, India, Arabia, China, Malaysia, Australia, Africa, Americas.

The Quran has lied again.

 

[DoctorNO]

Having read the verse within its sura (reference) I'm wondering what your problem with the passage is.

• It would appear that Allah is instructing the faithful in how to argue in advocacy of Islam
• We must remember that all rightly-guided religions come from God
• Thus, it seems reasonably true that Allah does not love the unbelievers; those who are not rightly-guided, those who do not seek God, those who seek only this world.

I think you're assigning the wrong definition of "unbelievers" becasue of your Western perspective and personal bigotry.

Obviously an unbeliever is anyone who does not believe in Mohammad’s version of “God”.

Rightly-guided religion? Where in the quran does it say that? Point it out.

And tell me…

• 
  * Is present day Catholicism a rightly guided religion with respect to quranic doctrines? Does Allah love a Trinitarian Marian Statue-kissin Pope-lovin Roman Catholic?
  
  * Is present day Hinduism a rightly guided religion with respect to quranic doctrines? Does Allah love a Polytheist shiva-worshippin Hindu?
  
  * Is present day Judaism a rightly guided religion with respect to quranic doctrines? Does Allah love a Talmud following Jew?

If Allah cant love those people then why should muslims?

A generally-incomplete way of explaining it that is about the only thing that seems to make sense to post-Christian Westerners would be to say that Muhammad believed that "all rightly-guided religions" come from the same God.

That is your own personal & private interpretation.

One of the interesting questions this idea raises, for instance, is whether Islam was intended to ever leave Arabia.

No it doesn’t. Islam is for the arabs alone. That is reason # 7 for (non-arabs) rejecting Islam. Ah Tiassa you are beginning to see the light.

 

[Flores]

Intrinsic nature? Then please explain why monotheism only came into existence in the last 3000 years. And why only the jews came to invent this idea.

Jews didn't invent anything. The bible and the Quran both states that the first man Adam knew and believed in the one creator.

The only modern invention here is Atheism...and since lies are usually young and immature, I would say that Atheism is a lie.

You can go ahead and fight your nature, but nothing will satisfy you more than believing as your nature was designed.

In any case, I'm not here to proof that Islam is right and everything is wrong, I'm only responding to a point raised earlier that Islam assumed that people are born as "good natured" and that whatever they turn after being born is accredited to their own doings. On the other hand, christianity which is the polar opposite states that all humans are born as rotten sinners and it's only the believe in Jesus that will purify them.

 

[Bells]

DoctorNO
It seems that anything that I will post in here in reply to your questions will go unread and unbelieved by you. You refuse to admit that Christians were and are unscrupulous in the manner in which they converted the non-believers. The links I had provided you before were not biased. They merely described the behaviour and manner in which christianity was forced down the throats of others.

Here are a few more in regards to the unconverted and how God just loves them :

They do not only justly deserve to be cast down thither, but the sentence of the law of God, that eternal and immutable rule of righteousness that God has fixed between him and mankind, is gone out against them, and stands against them; so that they are bound over already to hell. John iii. 18. "He that believeth not is condemned already." So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is, John viii. 23. "Ye are from beneath." And thither be is bound; it is the place that justice, and God's word, and the sentence of his unchangeable law assign to him.
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Unconverted men walk over the pit of hell on a rotten covering, and there are innumerable places in this covering so weak that they will not bear their weight, and these places are not seen.

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The use of this awful subject may be for awakening unconverted persons in this congregation. This that you have heard is the case of every one of you that are out of Christ.-That world of misery, that lake of burning brimstone, is extended abroad under you. There is the dreadful pit of the glowing flames of the wrath of God; there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor any thing to take hold of, there is nothing between you and hell but the air; it is only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up.

http://www.ldbc.net/sinners.htm

Yes that's right, convert or go to hell all unconverted because those who don't convert are sinners. Now read through that link and tell me where exactly it talks about God loving the unconverted? Because every friggin article or book I've ever read (and I've read many) on the subject of christian missionaries practices in converting the unbelievers, not one of them has ever said that missionaries told the unconverted that they were loved by God. Instead, these poor people were told that they'd go to hell if they didn't convert, that God does not love them unless they are believers and converts to Gods religion. I'd really advise you to read some text NO, it might open up your closed minded brain a bit.

In civilizing the Indians, Protestant missionaries imposed the wrath of God upon them, while saving the love of God for themselves.
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~jar/NNL/NNL_14.pdf

Yes, you'll go to hell because God loves you. Please. Another example of how missionaries saw themselves as being loved and the unconverted as angering and being unloved by God.

Evidences please. You are the only person I heard saying that. Common shmormn.

Read the god damned articles I had posted prior to this post. Oh but of course, you consider them biased because you disagree with them. Serving the Hindu agenda? Actually, they were merely pointing out the disgusting effects that enforced Christianity was having on Hindu families in India. The second article by the Presbytarian also gives detail of calling the unconverted Satan if I recall.

“For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever may believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life” – Bible John 3:16.

Yes, you're only saved if you believe in him. Sheesh even the bible is against you on this point.

If true it is only an isolated case. And stick with the topic…your assertion that missionaries proclaimed that god don’t love unbelievers.

It is not isolated. In fact it was and continues to be common practice. Read some books and educate yourself on the matter before you start denying fact.

Then please explain why monotheism only came into existence in the last 3000 years. And why only the jews came to invent this idea.

Ermmm I suggest that you study up on some ancient Egyptian history. Principally on Akhenaten.

 

[DoctorNO]

Jews didn't invent anything. The bible and the Quran both states that the first man Adam knew and believed in the one creator.

Adam was just a myth. You dont even know if he was a black man, an asian or a white man.

No the very first record of monotheism was only from 3,000 years ago. From the hebrews.

The only modern invention here is Atheism...and since lies are usually young and immature, I would say that Atheism is a lie.

Humans were born agnostic. They dont start believing in god until their parents start brainwashing them into believing in a specific verion of "God".

You can go ahead and fight your nature, but nothing will satisfy you more than believing as your nature was designed.

Can you not justify the false quranic claim that monotheism is inherent?

 

[DoctorNO]

DoctorNO
It seems that anything that I will post in here in reply to your questions will go unread and unbelieved by you. You refuse to admit that Christians were and are unscrupulous in the manner in which they converted the non-believers. The links I had provided you before were not biased. They merely described the behaviour and manner in which christianity was forced down the throats of others.

Dear Bells, I do not deny that fact. Christians did use unscrupulous means to convert people throughout history. What I disagree with you, and I demand you prove, is your silly allegation that....

• 
  "Funny though, christian missionaries used to travel the world (and still do) telling people that unless they converted to christianity, God would not love them and that they'd go to hell."

If you cannot prove that assertion and wish to discuss something else then please tell me so. I am still assuming that you are still trying to justify that claim with your irrelevant articles.

 

[DoctorNO]

Read the god damned articles I had posted prior to this post. Oh but of course, you consider them biased because you disagree with them. Serving the Hindu agenda? Actually, they were merely pointing out the disgusting effects that enforced Christianity was having on Hindu families in India. The second article by the Presbytarian also gives detail of calling the unconverted Satan if I recall.

Oh bells, bells, bells. Please get focused. Nowhere in that article you posted justifies your previous claims that...

• 
  "It was a common practice to call natives "satan" and to tell them that unless they converted, "

C'mon where does it say that a non-believing native is a Satan? Common practice? Common shbrommon.

 

[DoctorNO]

“

• “For God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son that whoever may believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life” – Bible John 3:16.

”
Yes, you're only saved if you believe in him. Sheesh even the bible is against you on this point.

Sheesh we were arguing about LOVE. L – O – V – E …. LOVE! John 3:16 clearly tells us that the God of the bible love the unbelieving world even before sending down his son.

“ Then please explain why monotheism only came into existence in the last 3000 years. And why only the jews came to invent this idea. ”

Ermmm I suggest that you study up on some ancient Egyptian history. Principally on Akhenaten.

Horus was a god. Isis was a godess. Seth was a god. Horus + Isis + Seth = that’s 3 gods already. How do you define polytheism?

 

[Bells]

Oh bells, bells, bells. Please get focused. Nowhere in that article you posted justifies your previous claims that...

• 
  "It was a common practice to call natives "satan" and to tell them that unless they converted, "

C'mon where does it say that a non-believing native is a Satan? Common practice? Common shbrommon.

I shall paste it again now shall I?

We heard several heart-rending tales of teenage boys or girls having been thus expelled from their families when they refused to convert, accused by their own parents of being "Satan".
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/C...20on Humanity

But then I suppose that you won't consider that a person's own testimony would be enough.

As to the notion of God not loving, I meant it in the sense that missionaries would tell people that unless they converted, they'd face eternal damnation... as in they were damned in God's eyes... as in they were not loved by God. Now lets look at eternal damnation shall we? Are those who are eternally damned by God loved by him? One would say not really. Lets say you were illiterate and some christian fool came and told you that unless you converted, you'd be eternally damned. Would you take that and think 'oh yeah, god loves me'? Do you understand what I'm saying now? Sheesh! The preach love and kindness, but then tell them that unless they convert, then they'd not feel that love and kindness, instead they'd be eternally damned... conversion = eternal salvation and basking in glory of Gods love.. to refuse to convert = eternal damnation and not basking in the glory of Gods love. That's how I meant the frigging love thing! Do you get it now?

NTM missionaries believe in the "unending punishment of the unsaved." In an NTM journal, one missionary describes how he felt when a woman from the northern Pwo Karen tribe in Thailand died after complications in childbirth: "Satan's savage and fierce grip had taken its toll and . . . a soul slipped away into a Christless eternity, the blackness of death . . . forever! Why? Why? . . . Can we not hear this woman's moans and groans of agony from the grave, at the reality of eternal hell?"

Unconverted Mlabri face the same fate, believes Long. Although he steers away from fire-and-brimstone ranting, his distress is obvious when he tells the story of a terminally ill Mlabri boy. The prospect of the boy's eternal damnation proved too much for Long, who decided to do some last-minute preaching. "I threw caution to the wind and told him everything," he tearfully recalls.

In the past, NTM attempts to reach the unsaved had tragic consequences. Around the same time as Long was first trekking after the Mlabri in northern Thailand, NTM missionaries in Paraguay were using armed bands of Indians to hunt down "uncontacted" rival Indian groups. Witnesses saw Indians dragged bleeding and vomiting into mission camps to be converted. As recently as December 1986, an NTM manhunt resulted in the deaths of five Indians.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?fv20010424a1.htm

 

[Bells]

Horus was a god. Isis was a godess. Seth was a god. Horus + Isis + Seth = that’s 3 gods already. How do you define polytheism?

I'm well aware what polytheism means. What I meant was that Akhenaten was possibly one of the first to practice monotheism in his banning all other Gods except for the Sun God. He enforced the rule that those in his kingdom would only pray to and believe in the Sun God. So it is possible that the Jews may not have invented monotheism.

 

[DoctorNO]

I shall paste it again now shall I?

But then I suppose that you won't consider that a person's own testimony would be enough.

Bells, 1 story could not be used to generalize. And you better read that article yourself, it says "parents", NOT "missionaries" as you allege.

 

[Flores]

Adam was just a myth. You dont even know if he was a black man, an asian or a white man.

I think he was a black man with enough diverse genetic features to impart to humanity, but I'm not here to make a claim or suggestion about color, race, or citizenship. I'm simly reffering to the FIRST man, and for all sake, let's call him Adam, if you would rather name him something else, I'm open for suggestions. You can't deny the fact that there was a first man at one point in time, unless you would like to claim that humans have always existed...and I don't think any sane person will make that claim.

No the very first record of monotheism was only from 3,000 years ago. From the hebrews.

You are wrong, the first record "That you know about" didn't come from the Hebrews. Abraham was not a Hebrew....He was a man. As far as polytheism, let me ask you this? Even the most polytheistic person is underneath it all a monotheist. In a moment of bad, you can't recall the names of all the gods and you end up just saying

Humans were born agnostic. They dont start believing in god until their parents start brainwashing them into believing in a specific verion of "God".

How did you know that??? Did you happen to interview the first man and conclude from him/her that they were agnostic? How arrogant and stupid of you....And what does that make you the brain washing monkey's uncle?

Can you not justify the false quranic claim that monotheism is inherent?

It's easily justifiable....Polytheist believe on it's own is unstable. Even pyramid ends up in a point. You can't extend on polytheism infenitly without narrowing things down to one, and similarly every polyatheistic believe ends up with One god.

 

[DoctorNO]

As to the notion of God not loving, I meant it in the sense that missionaries would tell people that unless they converted, they'd face eternal damnation... as in they were damned in God's eyes... as in they were not loved by God. Now lets look at eternal damnation shall we? Are those who are eternally damned by God loved by him? One would say not really. Lets say you were illiterate and some christian fool came and told you that unless you converted, you'd be eternally damned. Would you take that and think 'oh yeah, god loves me'? Do you understand what I'm saying now? Sheesh! The preach love and kindness, but then tell them that unless they convert, then they'd not feel that love and kindness, instead they'd be eternally damned... conversion = eternal salvation and basking in glory of Gods love.. to refuse to convert = eternal damnation and not basking in the glory of Gods love. That's how I meant the frigging love thing! Do you get it now?

Yeah I get it now. You should have clarified that in the first place. However your argument refers to the world of the AFTERLIFE. The bible does not really say whether or not God still loves those fallen angels & men who were judged to burn in hell. But obviously he doesn’t eh?

However the bible was referring to the living when it said that God so loved the world. The biblical God loves the non-believer, at least as long as he is alive.

 

[Bells]

aaaaaaarrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh after they'd been told by missionaries not to accept the unconverted. If you refuse to accept or acknowledge of the unscrupulous and vile practices of christian missionaries, that is your perogative. Frankly I no longer care. If you wish to be blind to what is obvious than I am not going to be the one to open your eyes. I'd suggest you speak to a few people who have been converted to christianity, it might just open your eyes a tad. I've read and heard testimonials from many many people on the subject and honestly, by trying to convey this to you, I have come to realise that you simply would not understand any of it since you are so engrossed in your hate for Islam that you refuse to accept or admit any wrongdoing in other non Islamic religions. That's up to you. But until you educate yourself more on the matter, I'd suggest that you refrain from denying that the disgusting behaviour of Christian missionaries exists. Your christian background and education means nothing. You were taught what they wanted you to hear. Maybe it's time that you stepped outside of your hate for Islam and looked into the practices of some missionaries within other religions.

 

[DoctorNO]

How did you know that??? Did you happen to interview the first man and conclude from him/her that they were agnostic? How arrogant and stupid of you....And what does that make you the brain washing monkey's uncle?

Try asking a toddler if there is a god and he will just look at you in confusion. Try explain what a god is to the same toddler and he will not understand.

Look at the cavemen paintings and see if there is anything that indicates a belief in gods. Nada.

You see a person will not believe in a god until someone brainwashes him into it.

Who is the stupid now eh?

 

[DoctorNO]

aaaaaaarrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh after they'd been told by missionaries not to accept the unconverted. If you refuse to accept or acknowledge of the unscrupulous and vile practices of christian missionaries, that is your perogative. Frankly I no longer care. If you wish to be blind to what is obvious than I am not going to be the one to open your eyes. I'd suggest you speak to a few people who have been converted to christianity, it might just open your eyes a tad.

Vile practices? You generalize them missionaries as if they are mostly evil. When in fact the huge majority of nations planted or converted by these missionaries are living in peace if not in prosperity. North America, South America, Europe, Australia, Philippines, South Africa, etc. Why are you so blind to what everyone could see???

And Ive been talking to people converted to Christianity. And they are very nice people. Here is a couple…

http://exmuslim.com/forum/

http://www.thebereans.net/

Aside from that I also personally met a muslim who converted to Christianity. She was a very nice person.

So I really don’t know what you are bitching about. But you are right, YOU DON’T CARE. You just keep ranting without any care that you are just ranting lies. Lies about women in Christianity, about missionaries, etc.

I've read and heard testimonials from many many people on the subject and honestly, by trying to convey this to you, I have come to realise that you simply would not understand any of it since you are so engrossed in your hate for Islam that you refuse to accept or admit any wrongdoing in other non Islamic religions.

Oh bells don’t you remember that I just told you that I do not deny the fact that some missionaries did use unscrupulous means to convert people? There are wrongdoings in other religions but the fact remains that Islam remains the king of oppression. It oppresses their own women, it oppresses apostates of islam, it oppresses Christians & jews, it oppresses hindus, it oppresses on and on.