What would it take for you to kill without guilt?

[pharaohmoan]

I agree that in most cases dysfunctional people in society are society's children and fault.
I also think that our "justice" system is in serious trouble and rather than working to rehabilitate our failures, it aims to sweep them under the rug and pretend they don't exist.
I agree with all this, and I agree that we all have a part to play.

That said...
If anyone breaks into my house (man or beast) I will do what I must to protect those I care for - and not feel the least bit of remorse.
No joy in it, but no remorse either.
Furthermore, you know nothing about 15ofthe19, how he lives or what he does for a living.
For all you know, he could spend his time working to improve prison conditions - he could be a social worker - he could vote for politicians that work towards fixing bringing rehabilitation into the prison system - he could more a part of the cure than the problem.
It is awfully short-sighted to blindly pass that judgement on someone you do not know and, in my book, amounts to an unwarranted accusation.

Regardless, even if he isn't, he has a fundamental, intrinsic right to pritec himself and those he loves from those out to do them harm.
Why not just free every person in prison because it's not his or her fault - it's ours.

Yes, we need to accept accountability for our failures - but at the same time we need to take responsibility to correct the failing system, and a simple mea culpa does not accomplish that.
People are put behind bars because they are dangerous, regardless whose fault it is.

You go ahead and discuss the problems of the person in your home.
I'm going to do what I can to try and fix the problems we face in this society, but not risk the life of my family to do so.

Glad you agree. As for protecting your family I can see that this is a natural instinct. If you have a gun (which is the problem in the first place) no doubt you are going to use it. What I am trying to say however is that you must realise you have become judge, jury and executioner all in one and this is somewhat of a cop out for not actually adressing the root of the problem.

Nice that you're trying to fix things though.

 

[one_raven]

If you have a gun (which is the problem in the first place) no doubt you are going to use it.

I don't have a gun, actually.
i still would not hestitate to do whatever I can to protect my family.
Part of protecting my family is acting and voting for change in the fractured system.

What I am trying to say however is that you must realise you have become judge, jury and executioner all in one

I absolutely realize that.

and this is somewhat of a cop out for not actually adressing the root of the problem.

Not in the situation in which a stranger breaks into my home it isn't.
What do I do at that moment? Call my Congressman and tell him he needs to fix the penal system? Offer to be the assailant's pen-pal while he is in prison for breaking into my home - if he decides to let me live?
I live my life in the way I want to see the world change.
In the meantime - I will not have my wife killed by a string out tweaker looking to steal something for his next hit.
I do not support capital punishment, because, as I said, criminals are OUR failures but that should not preclude me from protecting those I love from someone out to harm them regardless of the reason they are in the situation they are in.

"It's OK. You can rape my wife. You have hard a hard time of things, so you earned it. You deserve it. It's just as much my fault as it is yours."
Bullshit.

Making excuses for people to play the victim is part of the problem as well.
We, as a society have to accept our accountability and responsibility - but so do the criminals.

 

[Asguard]

one_raven i dont think the question was what would it take to make you kill

It was what would it take for you not to feel any remorse afterwards, i dont think that a normal person (ie one who is not a sociopath) would feel remorse, guilt and grief no matter HOW right your reasons were for doing it

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

I believe we are all killers, predators, hunter's as a speicies but even though this has pretty much regressed i feel in all of us there is a boundary line where we will kill, without consience if this line is crossed.
I think the variation will be quite wide. but the line is there in all of us.
it's not what it takes to make you kill, but to kill without remorse etc as you can justify it to be a righteous act.

 

[one_raven]

one_raven i dont think the question was what would it take to make you kill

There is no difference to me.
That's the point.
I wouldn't kill unless I felt justified, and if I felt justified, I would have no remorse.
It's not that I wouldn't be sad that there was reason that someone had to die, or I wouldnn't feel for the family, or that a part of me wouldn't morun for the loss of life in general.
I wouldn't, however, feel remorse for the act. I wouldn't be tortured by the act. I wouldn't feel any guilt or shame.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Someone harming or molesting a child.

Someone harming or molesting anyone I cared about.

Someone endangering the life of any innocent person.

Some trying to kill, rape, or seriously injure me.

Someone stealing my Deicide CDs, or insulting all Alsatian dogs everywhere.

(Ok, I was messing on that last one.)

 

[angrybellsprout]

Same here, with addition to rapists, Klu Klux Klan members, skinheads, or NAZIS!

no panthers or mexica movement idiots?

 

[angrybellsprout]

-someone breaking into my house
-someone who tried to or harmed one of my dogs (something like that would receive the bonus of a slow and painful death to the perpetrator)
-someone who threatened or harmed my friends or relatives
-someone who tries to kill me*

*I'm the type of person that if someone raised a firearm at me and pointed it at me (and I knew you're serious), they better pull the trigger(and ensure I'm dead), because if they didn't, I'd kill them the next time I had the chance. No guilt.

I know that the next time a certian bastard tries to approach me, he is going to be going away to the hospital before going off for a few years of prison and the law is on my side

 

[visceral_instinct]

Originally Posted by USS Exeter
Same here, with addition to rapists, Klu Klux Klan members, skinheads, or NAZIS!

Same here. I fucking hate racists.

 

[15ofthe19]

Glad you agree. As for protecting your family I can see that this is a natural instinct. If you have a gun (which is the problem in the first place) no doubt you are going to use it. What I am trying to say however is that you must realise you have become judge, jury and executioner all in one and this is somewhat of a cop out for not actually adressing the root of the problem.

Nice that you're trying to fix things though.

You make a lot of assumptions about the motives of men, but what you have not made mention of yet is that there are some people that are just downright bad. And it's not because of society, and it's not your fault, or mine.

Sometimes there's not a reason for something to be the way it is: It just is. There are people who enjoying hurting other people. I hope you never run astray of this type of person, because all the bargaining in the world wont matter at that point. Just be careful. You seem like someone who would be willing to die to prove a very misguided point.

Here's a link for you. This happened last night in downtown Knoxville. This stuff is more common than you think.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/mar/01/man-shot-death-northwest-knoxville/

 

[Neildo]

What would it take to kill without guilt? As long as it wasn't a woman, child, or dog, no biggie.

- N

 

[pharaohmoan]

Just be careful. You seem like someone who would be willing to die to prove a very misguided point.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

I put this link on but don't think anybody watched it....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kMd_NCMETp4

Do you think this was justified, if you listen to it all I feel the policeman killed without guilt, or remorse. He lied about the events as proved on camera, he only got suspended for being late for work. He should have been sacked, in my opinion of the tape I feel he was agitated he looked scruffy, he and his partner were late (been out drinking the night before), and he shot the man accidently, but should have been tried for manslaughter.

this man killed seemingly not only without guilt but, showed no remorse and there was (to me) no reason.

WARNING: this is not graphic yet is cctv footage with commentary of a shooting(the narrator will warn well in advance)

 

[one_raven]

I watched it.
It was unfortunate to say the least and more charges should certainly have been brought against the shooter.
I have no idea how you cane to the conclusion you did about his state of mind, guilt or remorse from this video and commentary, however.
With the quaility of the video there is no way at all to tell if he had been scruffy or agitated.
He was suspended not only for being late, also for having his finger on the trigger of his gun.
The commentary said nothing about the shooter or his partner being out drinking the night before - and even if they had, that has no bearing on this at all.

While I do agree that justice was not served in this instance (IF the commentary is accurate) you make some great leaps of assumption.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

I watched it.
It was unfortunate to say the least and more charges should certainly have been brought against the shooter.
I have no idea how you cane to the conclusion you did about his state of mind, guilt or remorse from this video and commentary, however.

he had no knowlege of the cctv and lied in questioning if it was justifiable or a right move there would be no need to lie [ to portray truth with the knowlegde it is false should rise feelings of guilt ]

With the quaility of the video there is no way at all to tell if he had been scruffy or agitated.
He was suspended not only for being late, also for having his finger on the trigger of his gun.
The commentary said nothing about the shooter or his partner being out drinking the night before - and even if they had, that has no bearing on this at all.

It was my opinion, he drew his gun without need,his actions appear that of someone paniced with no control of the situation, and it was the lateness of the partner, the lying and the state of mind (from his actions when he is supposed to be a trained proffesional). I see it as an acccident from someone not acting proffessionaly. As he and his partner were both late it would be a logical step of conclusion (whether it is right or not is a completely different matter)

 

[one_raven]

he had no knowlege of the cctv and lied in questioning if it was justifiable or a right move there would be no need to lie [ to portray truth with the knowlegde it is false should rise feelings of guilt ]

I find it VERY hard to believe that a Chicago cop would not know that the subway stations do not have CCTV cameras. Pretty much impossible, in fact.

The commentator said that the Chicago PD fought to keep the videos from being released.
I all likelihood he lied to cover his ass, and hoped the videos would not be enough evidence to reveal his lies.
It does seem apparent that the shooting was an accident, and the actions of te Chicago PD (suspending him for having his finger on the trigger) seem to agree that it was caused by unprofessional behavior.
This is why I agree that justice was not served, and he sould have - at least - been fired, and they should have instituted a formal inquiry by a third party to determine if any criminal charges were justified.
None of this says he has no guilt or remorse, however.
For all you know he could be tortured by this accident every day.
the fact that he lied suggests only that he knew he was in trouble and wanted to avoid or lessen the consequences of his actions.
It says nothing at all about guilt or remorse - nor does it say anything about whether he felt his actions were justified.

Furthermore, you have no idea what was going on behind the scenes and what pressure he was under from the brass to appear innocent. This looks bad for the whole department.

It was my opinion, he drew his gun without need

There was a fight off camera, and you have no idea how big that fight was.
He was the only police officer in the area and his partner was missing.
There were a lot of innocent people around. He had to get the situation under control.
How could you know - without any idea how dangerous or volatile the situation was, nor any idea if any of those involved in the fight had weapons - whether or not his actions were justified?

his actions appear that of someone paniced with no control of the situation

I don't see that at all. While he may have been panicked, that can certainly not be ascertained by the video.

I see it as an acccident from someone not acting proffessionaly.

And I agree.

As he and his partner were both late it would be a logical step of conclusion (whether it is right or not is a completely different matter)

What would be a logical step?
They were both late so that must mean that they were out drinking the night before?
That's absurd.
There could be a million different explanations for that.
Your predjudice is showing through very clearly in that baseless assumption.

 

[madanthonywayne]

It doesn't matter what the reason. I'm not a machine. I think most people who haven't killed anyone and think they would not be affected by it are delusional.

If I murdered someone (killed them unjustly), I would certainly feel really bad about it. Hell, I still feel guilty about a pencil I stold in grade school! But if it was justified (self defense, defense of family) I really don't think I'd be bothered at all.

 

[Pinocchio's Hoof]

I find it VERY hard to believe that a Chicago cop would not know that the subway stations do not have CCTV cameras. Pretty much impossible, in fact.

He lied about when he drew his gun, so he must have been unaware that he had been followed on cctv to the fight, even if he was aware that the incident itself was on cctv

It does seem apparent that the shooting was an accident, and the actions of te Chicago PD (suspending him for having his finger on the trigger) seem to agree that it was caused by unprofessional behavior.
This is why I agree that justice was not served, and he sould have - at least - been fired, and they should have instituted a formal inquiry by a third party to determine if any criminal charges were justified.

Agreed

None of this says he has no guilt or remorse, however.
For all you know he could be tortured by this accident every day.
the fact that he lied suggests only that he knew he was in trouble and wanted to avoid or lessen the consequences of his actions.
It says nothing at all about guilt or remorse - nor does it say anything about whether he felt his actions were justified.

if indeed it was accidental he could have given first aid, even check for a pulse?
Resigning would have been a good sign of remorse.
but Iam only making assumption's based on what I feel

There was a fight off camera, and you have no idea how big that fight was.
He was the only police officer in the area and his partner was missing.
There were a lot of innocent people around. He had to get the situation under control.

He followed the victim with his gun drawn well before he was aware the fight was going on with the victims friend, so the gun was drawn purely for the victim, well before the shooting

I don't see that at all. While he may have been panicked, that can certainly not be ascertained by the video.

But he drew his gun for no reason and started following the victim, he could have just followed him without it drawn.
I'm not stating as fact this is what happened i agree there could be a million reasons, this is just one, perhaps he and his partner were both late because they went out and therefore, did not act as rationaly as he could of through impaired judgement (accidental)


.

Your predjudice is showing through very clearly in that baseless assumption.

Predjudice against who?
When I make big mistakes at work its generaly because I went out the night before.

 

[s0meguy]

Anyone who was killing a child or molesting a child I would off in a heartbeat without any remorse at all.

Why does it matter if they are doing it to a child, why not a woman, or even just a regular man?

"WHAT! THEY ARE MOL-... oh... it's just a mature man........."

 

[s0meguy]

I think that most people in here that say that they would feel guilty for killing a human, are just pretending. Humans are animals in essence, and killing them is pretty much the same than killing most other animals. Maybe it's a group survival thing (evolution). I'm not saying that it's ok to kill humans, we need rules against it to keep society functioning.