whitebark pine going down

[adoucette]

I suspect the only error here is yours.
First off, my recollection is that modelling generally predicts that in East Antarctica at least, that rising global average temperatures will lead to increased precipitation (in the form of snow) - to the point where IPCC predictions attribute a reduction in the rate of sea level rise of as much as 0.12mm/yr to it - which will logically lead a generally increasing extent anomaly, as your graph shows. So your graph, it seems argues in favour, rather than against Iceaura's suggestion.

One might also be tempted to assess the total ice extent anomaly, which is still, on the whole decreasing.

Nope
This graph is of sea ice and it freezes up each year and is not related to precipitation (and you are correct, precipitation in Antarctica is expected to have a slightly negative impact on sea level (as it always has had)).

Like the Arctic, the amount of sea ice around Antarctica is an indirect measure of a combination of ocean currents, wind patterns, amount of cloud cover and air temperature. It is not a good measure of climate change since as we see, even though we know that global temps are going up, so is Antarctic sea ice.

Arthur

 

[iceaura]

Like the Arctic, the amount of sea ice around Antarctica is an indirect measure of a combination of ocean currents, wind patterns, amount of cloud cover and air temperature. It is not a good measure of climate change

So we read that the amount of Antarctic sea ice meaures long term and large scale changes in significant weather patterns at high Southern latitudes,

but not climate change.

Got it.

 

[adoucette]

So we read that the amount of Antarctic sea ice meaures long term and large scale changes in significant weather patterns at high Southern latitudes,

but not climate change.

Got it.

Correct.

Since we have the level of sea ice going up on one pole and down on the other it's clear that sea ice it is not a good indicator of global climate change.

 

[iceaura]

But the whitebark pine trees have been in serious decline for a century following the 1910 introduction of the exotic disease white pine blister rust and their decline has been exacerbated by our fire prevention policies, so NO, you can't blame their decline on human induced Climate Change.
- - - - -
How does their increasing vulnerability to blister rust and their recent inundation by bark beetles since 1910, exactly as predicted by the climate change alarmists, remove blame from climate change?
”
Because the literature specifically excludes it.

Whitebark pine (Pinus albicaulis) forests are declining across most of its range in North America because of the combined effects of three factors (Arno 1986, Kendall and Keane 2001).
Then they list the THREE factors:
- - - - -
But since Ice has a very specific melting point > 0C, the point at which it exists or doesn't exist. The amount of ice is primarily a geographical issue and NOT a valid way of determining that the rate of global warming is accelerating.
- - - -
Since we have the level of sea ice going up on one pole and down on the other it's clear that sea ice it is not a good indicator of global climate change.

There's a kind of beauty in this, no? We aren't just talking about doubt concerning some physical stuff that may or may not be happening, here. We're dealing with denial of scientific reasoning itself, a refusal to acknowledge pattern and consequence.

Meanwhile, the OP remains bereft of commentary. What if anything have we lost if we lose the whitebark pine forests, but still have a few patches of whitebark pine trees around? lose the coral reefs but still have some patches of coral here and there? Is there a definable type of extinction at the level of "biome" or "ecosystem" or the like, that we can measure and track and record as data?

 

[adoucette]

No one has doubted that the Whitepine is declining.

NO ONE.

You just wanted to try to claim that their decline over this century was due to climate change when the science said the major reasons for the decline were not related to climate but to beetles, fungus and fire management.

The cumulative effects of these three agents have resulted in a rapid decrease in mature whitebark pine over the last 20 years.

Whitebark pine (Pinus albicaulis) forests are declining across most of its range in North America because of the combined effects of three factors (Arno 1986, Kendall and Keane 2001).

First, there have been several major mountain pine beetle (Dendroctonus ponderosae) outbreaks that have killed many cone-bearing whitebark pine trees

The effects of an extensive and successful fire-exclusion management policy since the 1930s have also reduced the area burned in whitebark pine forests, resulting in a decrease of suitable conditions for whitebark pine regeneration

Finally, the introduction of the exotic fungus white pine blister rust (Cronarium ribicola) to the western United States circa 1910 has killed many five-needle pine trees, and whitebark pine is one of the most susceptible to the disease
(Hoff et al. 1980, Keane and Arno 1993, Murray et al. 1995, Kendall and Keane 2001).

Then they add a note about the possible effects of climate change that have yet to occur:

predicted changes in northern Rocky Mountain climate brought about by global warming could further exacerbate whitebark pine decline

Arthur