Who killed the Electric Car?

[Carcano]

A new video on the Volt's aerodynamics:

Interesting how the entire rear end of the car is sculpted with sharp edges to prevent the wind from wrapping around the back. The windshield and top also appear to be ONE piece of polycarbonate...no seams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9OwITZUVhY

 

[Carcano]

Heres a good view of the back with the sharp edges running down both sides and the spoiler along the top...spoiling turbulent drag.

http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rearviewkc6.jpg

 

[ElectricFetus]

The aerodynamics of the volt is nothing revolutionary. If it was it would look something like this:

 

[Nasor]

You can save money on it verse the equivalent car, it like people that can afford to install a geothermal pump. So it makes economic sense it just your comparing the wrong class of vehicles: I might as well say that a 4-door car should not be economical verse a motorcycle.

I doubt VERY much that this thing will be "equivalent" to a $40k luxury car. Most likely it will be equivalent to a mid-range sedan that would normally cost $15-$20.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I doubt VERY much that this thing will be "equivalent" to a $40k luxury car. Most likely it will be equivalent to a mid-range sedan that would normally cost $15-$20.

Considering it going to have onboard GPS mapping and direction guidance, blue tooth Ipod and speaker phone, and the maintenance schedule of a Rolls Royce, all this with the yuppie novelty of being a PHEV, I don't know where you doubt comes from?

 

[MetaKron]

I haven't heard much discussion about how much using an electric or hybrid increases gas mileage for the following reason: They don't waste fuel while standing or accelerating.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I haven't heard much discussion about how much using an electric or hybrid increases gas mileage for the following reason: They don't waste fuel while standing or accelerating.

On average hybrids with stop-start save increase their mileage by 10%, so idling does waste power, but not much. Wasting fuel while accelerating is something car engine designers have spent decades trying to fix, with very advanced mechanical system in engine to optimize performance while accelerating, of course they will never achieve the efficiency of a electric motor which has almost no loss of effiecency over a very large rpm range, and than a degradation of range once it starts overclocking (spinning faster than it maximum designed speed) cars can be designed with the motors on just one gear ratio or even with the motors in the hub of the tires, no need for a transmission. In-hub-motors will be able to do things that would make any other 4WD user cry, such as do 360 spins in place or (with screw treaded tires) drive sideways!

 

[Billy T]

...or (with screw treaded tires) drive sideways!

I never heard of these, but it would seem to be great promoter of wear on the highway as constantly pulling to one side, just as badly miss aligned tires do and also promote rapid wear. Comments?

 

[ElectricFetus]

I never heard of these, but it would seem to be great promoter of wear on the highway as constantly pulling to one side, just as badly miss aligned tires do and also promote rapid wear. Comments?

I was thinking of it as a means of finally making parallel parking possible for the stupid, I don't think the car could move at top speed sideways, even with omniwheels instead of screw treads the friction would be too much!

 

[kmguru]

Did anyone discuss Chrysler Jeep plugin hybrid getting 400 miles with 8 gallons? That is 50 miles per gallon. Wonder if the little engine can produce enough power to continuously charge the battery while travelling or on has to take short breaks every 75 miles for the engine to charge the battery.....

 

[Carcano]

The world's first production plug-in hybrid car is made in (you guessed it) CHINA!!!

http://www.gizmag.com/byd-launch-worlds-first-production-plug-in-hybrid/10573/

December 16, 2008 The world's first mass-produced plug in hybrid and the world's first production series hybrid went on sale this week in China. On Monday, a company best known for making cell-phone batteries has begun selling its F3DM — China's first mass-produced hybrid electric vehicle. The car is expected to retail for around US$20,000 in China, and make its way to the U.S. in 2011.

BYD, short for Build Your Dream, in which Warren Buffett Warren bought a 10% share only 3 months ago for $232 Million, is the world's leading producer of rechargeable batteries Rechargeable battery for mobile phones and laptops, among other products. BYD got into the car market in 2003, and the F3DM is a modified version of its petrol-powered F3 model. The DM in the name stands for dual-mode, reflecting its ability to operate in both full-electric and series hybrid modes. The conventional F3 (which looks like a Toyota Toyota Corolla replica) sells for about US$14,000 fully loaded, and its sales were up 36% this year through October. China's overall car sales have fallen in three of the last four months.

The F3DM uses BYD's self-developed iron-phosphate-based lithium-ion batteries, which the company said could be recharged more than 2,000 times. Charge time with a standard 220V 10A wall socket is 7 hours while using a high powered charger 3 hours full charge is possible. Due to the characteristics of iron-phosphate li-ion batteries which have very high charge and discharge rates it is possible to half charge the battery is as little as 10 minutes or 80% in 15 mins.

In EV mode the car can travel as far as 100 km (62 miles) on a single charge, compared to 64km (40 miles) for the Volt or just 25 km (15 miles) for the Prius. For range beyond 100km a small 1.0 litre petrol engine (GM Volt has 1.4 litre) will recharge the battery in series hybrid mode and extend the range of the car. As the F3DM is a series hybrid, the wheels are always driven by the electric motor which has (300ft/lb) of torque with full torque available from zero rpm. The electric motor can be used as a generator for regenerative braking which re-collects kinetic energy used to accelerate the vehicle for storage in the battery and can greatly extends EV mode range.

 

[Billy T]

...BYD, short for Build Your Dream, in which Warren Buffett Warren bought a 10% share only 3 months ago for $232 Million, is the world's leading producer of rechargeable batteries ...

I wonder if GWB's tax reductions for the rich, in Warren B's case gave him these funds?

As I have often noted, Republican "Trickle Down" DOES work. It supplies funds for investments, BUT ALWAYS WHERE THE EXPECTED RETURNS ARE GREATEST - That would be China, with 9% GDP growth, not the shrinking growth USA.

The net effect on USA of GWB's tax relief for the wealthy has been to destroy good factory jobs in the USA and make them in China (or Dubai, and other booming regions).

 

[scorpius]

..
In-hub-motors will be able to do things that would make any other 4WD user cry, such as do 360 spins in place or (with screw treaded tires) drive sideways!

and get way better mpg too,...100 mpg pickup truck possible.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2008/10/updated-hi-pa-d.html

Energy for the four wheel-mounted electric motors is stored in a 40-kilowatt lithium-ion battery, mounted where the fuel tank used to be.

In turning an F-150 into an all-electric full-size pickup, PML has removed its engine, transmission, exhaust system and rear differential. Even with four 66-pound motors that deliver 150 horsepower and an astonishing 516 pounds-feet of torque per wheel, the truck weighs less than a conventionally powered F-150.

Software controls power output to each wheel, depending on road conditions and slippage, using computer code to create a digital differential and full-time all-wheel drive/quote
------------
whats taking BIG 3 so long ??

 

[ElectricFetus]

whats taking BIG 3 so long ??

Years of stupidity and now lack of money.

 

[Carcano]

The latest news on the EESTOR Zenn partnership:

http://cleantech.com/news/4494/zenn-ceo-speaks-about-eestor-progre

Toronto-based Zenn Motor plans to incorporate ultracapacitors from stealthy EEStor into full-speed electric vehicles starting in 2010.

The news comes a day after EEStor received third-party verification that it passed its final technology milestone, leaving the company with the sole challenge of bringing its state-of-the-art energy storage system to commercial production.

 

[ElectricFetus]

The latest news on the EESTOR Zenn partnership:

http://cleantech.com/news/4494/zenn-ceo-speaks-about-eestor-progre

Toronto-based Zenn Motor plans to incorporate ultracapacitors from stealthy EEStor into full-speed electric vehicles starting in 2010.

The news comes a day after EEStor received third-party verification that it passed its final technology milestone, leaving the company with the sole challenge of bringing its state-of-the-art energy storage system to commercial production.

Zenn motors is not exactly independent testing, they been going broke with quarter after quarter of loses and scamming might be their only solution now. They did not publish their results, in short I won't believe it until an actually 3rd party proves these batteries work.

http://www.darrylsiry.com/2009/04/zenn-and-art-of-eestor-hype-maintenance.html

 

[Carcano]

Zenn motors is not exactly independent testing...

Right, nor would they be equipped for it.

The third party testing was done by Texas Research International:

http://cleantech.com/news/3173/eestor-gets-scientific-backing-its-advanced-batteries

Secretive EEStor's processes and equipment have apparently been verified by Ed Golla, lab director of Texas Research International, a multidisciplinary research, development and testing company in Austin, Texas.

And Ian Treviranus of HORIBA Instruments said the company's technology helps maintain sufficient voltage at ideal temperatures, according to EEStor.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Right, nor would they be equipped for it.

The third party testing was done by Texas Research International:

http://cleantech.com/news/3173/eestor-gets-scientific-backing-its-advanced-batteries

Secretive EEStor's processes and equipment have apparently been verified by Ed Golla, lab director of Texas Research International, a multidisciplinary research, development and testing company in Austin, Texas.

And Ian Treviranus of HORIBA Instruments said the company's technology helps maintain sufficient voltage at ideal temperatures, according to EEStor.

These are extremely vague, more detailed reading from other sources reveals that the most recent "test result verifying EEStor product" was in fact permittivity tests at nowhere near the voltage claimed for EEstor (test at 1 volt not 3000) and with ambiguous temperature results. Permittivity tests do not in any way prove that EEstor product can store the amount of power and energy claimed and as of yet no public test results have every been show of the product storying any power!

http://www.greencarcongress.com/200...es-eestor-relative-permittivity-of-22500.html

Hoax Exposed
I have finally had enough of this BS on EESTOR and want to offer the following to all of you listeners out there. After designing e-circuits for decades one becomes very "up to speed" on various pitfalls involving electronic components, especially capacitors. Engineers are always quick to transition to seemingly impossible breakthroughs with "caps" that specify huge volume-vs-capacitance claims.
Case Point - Y5V Dielectric (AKA "Barium Titanate")
Exhibit 1 - Barium Titanate:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5604167.html
This dielectric is known for losing over 80% of its "labeled capacitance just by applying 50% of its rated voltage.
Please see data sheet example for for AVX Y5V.
Exhibit 2:
Simply search for avx "cY5V.pdf" and look at first page, top-middle graph, "Capacitance Change vs. DC Bias Voltage".
Yes - you see it right, if you apply 50% ot he parts rated voltage its capacitance drops DOWN by 85% to 15% of its capacitance rating.
It gets worst - look at what happens when you increase its temperature. Look at first graph "Temperature Coefficient".
It even gets worst again - Y5V (Barium Titanate) looses as much as 15% of its capacitance from aging for just 1,000 hours.
Exhibit 3:
Please look at the last page for Vishay Y5V capacitor data sheet, link: http://www.vishay.ru/docs/45156/elecdata.pdf
Trouble finding it, search: Vishay elecdata.pdf.
Chip manufacturers like Maxim and Linear Technology have been offering "Cautions" about Y5V (also known as Type-F dielectric by Panasonic and some others).
Exhibit 4:
Please find data sheet for LT1610 (just one of dozens of examples that caution usage of Y5V)
Linear Technology LT1610 link:
http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?name=1610f.pdf
The Bottom Line:
Power-house, top rated capacitor company scientists have been working to develop the "wonder cap" for numerous decades.....and all of the sudden out-of-the-blue EESTOR claims they have done what 10's of billions of $$ spent by Kemet, AVX, Vishay, Sprague, TDK, Panasonic and a dozen more companies could not do. I don't buy it - especially because of the lack of "transparency" by EESTOR on their technology.
Come on EESTOR - put up or shut up!

 

[Carcano]

These are extremely vague, more detailed reading from other sources reveals that the most recent "test result verifying EEStor product" was in fact permittivity tests at nowhere near the voltage claimed for EEstor

Anything other than the actual test documents is going to be vague. The company has stated that the materials break down only under voltages three times higher than real life conditions.

But I agree that nothing is final until there is a prototype...however I doubt they would be partnered with Lockhead Martin if its all BS.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Anything other than the actual test documents is going to be vague. The company has stated that the materials break down only under voltages three times higher than real life conditions.

I can claim I can jump 3 times higher then the moon that does not make it true.

Here how it works, when a company has a great idea they demonstrate prototypes and working models to get investors, if EEstor's claims were true they would be showing this tech off on the fucking street so that billions in investment money would come in, because if this thing was true it would be as big a breakthrough as the atomic bomb! Take for example A123: they demonstrated their batteries (which by the way are far less impressive then EEstor claims by a order of a magnitude) every chance they could get and got hundreds of million and productions rights for most of the next generation hybrid cars of most every car company. Nanosolar is another example, that super tweel thing on another thread a 3rd, etc, etc, EEstor "stealth" strategy is completely illogical for a company with a great product idea and patents in place or in the works (like EEstor with patents, be it grossly vague ones), but it is a classic scam strategy.

But I agree that nothing is final until there is a prototype...however I doubt they would be partnered with Lockhead Martin if its all BS.

You would be surprised how high scams have gone before. Might as well have been saying 4 years ago "Come now all the most powerful banks in the world falling for a convoluted ponzi scheme causing trillions of dollars in damages and a global depression, that could never happen, your silly, now I'm going to buy a house with these incredibly low rates and risk assessments, which of course are totally legal and a very economically sustainable strategy!"