Who was Jesus talking to when he said...

[roger_pearse]

I would agree with your last statement, but not with Tertullian. It is a finely weaved web that combined paganism with Christianty. The teaching was never apostolic.

There is nothing quite like hearing the man himself. Tertullian has this to say (Adversus Praxean, chapter 2):

"We however as always, the more so now as better equipped through the Paraclete, that leader into all truth, believe (as these do) in one only God, yet subject to this dispensation (which is our word for "economy") that the one only God has also a Son, his Word who has proceeded from himself, by
whom all things were made; and without whom nothing has been made : that this <Son> was sent by the Father into the virgin and was born of her both man and God, Son of man and Son of God, and was named Jesus Christ: that he suffered, died, and was buried, according to the scriptures, and, having been raised up by the Father and taken back into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father and will come to judge the quick and the dead : and that thereafter he, according to his promise, sent from the Father the Holy Spirit the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. That this Rule has come down from the beginning of the Gospel, even before all former heretics, not to speak of Praxeas of yesterday, will be proved as well by the comparative lateness of all heretics as by the very novelty of Praxeas of yesterday."

After which summary he goes on to details.

Possibly Tertullian's attacks on paganism are not as well known as I thought they were: "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?" Have a hunt around for info on him -- nothing comes to mind at the moment.

It existed in pagan religions long before Jesus as three gods in one form in India, China, Japan etc...

I do not think so. Triads of deities are not the same thing. These sorts of arguments tend to rely heavily on blurring of categories.

The trinity doctrine of "three persons in one God", or "one God with three equal but distinct personalites" and other pagan teachings such as the falsely titled "apostles creed" may have been called apostolic but they were only intoduced and taught by the Christian churches much later after they had began to compromise with paganism

The evidence is otherwise - sorry. The church didn't do this sort of thing, or not intentionally. They went to the stake rather than do so.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[TheVisitor]

The evidence is otherwise - sorry. The church didn't do this sort of thing, or not intentionally. They went to the stake rather than do so.

It is well documented the Roman "church" did do that sort of thing.
The ones that were killed were standing against the church.
68 million people died during the Dark Ages standing against the false teachings of the church of the Roman empire.
That is indisputable. There are many sources attesting to this. Here are just a few.

"Foxes book of Martyrs". This lists the major persecutions from the apostles up to about 1820.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/index.htm

"Fifty Years in the Church of Rome". This one published in 1886 picks up about where "Foxes" leaves off.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/chiniquy/index.html

 

[roger_pearse]

It is well documented the Roman "church" did do that sort of thing.
The ones that were killed were standing against the church.
68 million people died during the Dark Ages standing against the false teachings of the church of the Roman empire.
That is indisputable.

Read "Foxes book of Martyrs". http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/index.htm

I have just read the first two chapters, taking us to 313 AD. I find no discussion of this issue. Why do you quote this text -- without specific reference -- in support of a claim concerning the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity, where we have already shown the doctrine stated by Tertullian in 215 AD?

Furthermore... do you really base all this on a 17th century anti-Catholic tract? I wouldn't place a lot of faith in www.killwomblesdiediedie.com as a guide to wombles -- it's unlikely to be very balanced.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[TheVisitor]

Why do you quote this text -- without specific reference -- in support of a claim concerning the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity, where we have already shown the doctrine stated by Tertullian in 215 AD?

We may be talking about two separate issues here. If you're only referring to the actual date paganism infiltrated Christianity in the form of a false trinity doctrine....
I will agree it may have started long before the Nicene council of 325.

I was merely attesting to the fact it did happen, not claiming to be an expert on the actual date. I may be wrong about that, sorry.

Furthermore... do you really base all this on a 17th century anti-Catholic tract?

As I said there are many sources. I do not base my assumptions on just one.

But despite the sources one might read, the pros and the cons, it still comes down to a personal understanding revealed by one's life journey.
Which do you chose to believe? I've told you my opinion, but in the end only something from the inside can confirm to you what's really true.

 

[roger_pearse]

We may be talking about two separate issues here. If you're only referring to the actual date paganism infiltrated Christianity in the form of a false trinity doctrine....
I will agree it may have started long before the Nicene council of 325.

You're not agreeing with me here, you know? In fact ... surely the points you're making are tripping each other up here? (I don't mean that I disagree -- although I do -- but that the argument itself is skittering around).

The claim in your post was that Christianity imported the Trinity from paganism. I point out that Tertullian states it in full in 215, as apostolic. You offer Foxe's as evidence that Christianity imported the Trinity from paganism. I point out that his account to 325 contains no such statement. After this, I don't see how this claim about the origins of the Trinity -- that it was borrowed from paganism -- can be sustained.

They don't work, these claims, and they are not true. Christians did not adopt the teaching of the trinity from paganism. They adopted it as the only way to make sense of the biblical claims, I suggest; and they believed when they did so that the teaching was apostolic, as Tertullian says.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

 

[John99]

Visitor, you are referring to wars between countries like France and England. Ancient civilizations went to war all the time and of course various tribes.

 

[TheVisitor]

What the readers here should be aware of is history's habit of repeating itself.
The Christian churches both Catholic and Protestant have waged wars not only fighting themselves, launched crusades against other religions such as the Muslims, but also in the "not too distant past" they regularly engaged in the wholesale slaughter of their own citizens. That is a fact of history.

This is the real reason the U.S. constitution laid out a separation of Church and State.
It's not just to keep the Ten Commandments off courthouse and school room walls.

The general public may believe Christianity and the more radical elements of Islam appear to have little in common, but these newly enacted laws such as the "patriot act" once in place won't be easily repealed.

How long then will it be before all the independent Christians not part of some World Council of Churches and States enabled by these anti-terrorism laws will be branded as potentially dangerous "fringe elements" and the system turns again on it's own citizens?
It's happened before and if John's vision in Rev. 13 is any indication of future events, it will happen again.

According to the book "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" published in 1886, the Vatican began an attempted take over of the United States more than 150 years ago.
If they had succeeded by now, do you think anyone would necessarily know about it?

Just like Eisenhower's final address warning of power in the shadows, Lincoln also had a last warning for his citizens. He said;...

"We don't need fear an enemies army invading us from without, but a subversion that comes from within in the form of a daily infestation of black robed priests upon our shores"

That is why people should study history for themselves. You're not going to get it on CNN.

 

[John99]

That is right from some paranoid conspiracy theorist sites.

 

[John99]

Also, there are so many variations of the same theme and all they do is change the names. Illumunati, Free Masons, one percenters the list goes on an on.

 

[John99]

The Illuminati was a big one a few years ago and luckily that died down. Just more internet folk lore.

 

[TheVisitor]

That is right from some paranoid conspiracy theorist sites.

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe it'll work for you.

Also, there are so many variations of the same theme and all they do is change the names. Illuminati, Free Masons, one percenters the list goes on an on.

I heard many of those stories years ago. I'm not talking about them.
Let's talk about you, John. What is the name for what you do?
Who are the ones whose job it is to tell the people; "there is nothing to fear, go on back to your homes now"?

I know with animals it's called a Judas Goat that leads the sheep to the slaughter house.
Then it jumps the gate. What do the people who do this call themselves? Do you even know?

Just curious that's all.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

What the readers here should be aware of is history's habit of repeating itself.
The Christian churches both Catholic and Protestant have waged wars not only fighting themselves, launched crusades against other religions such as the Muslims, but also in the "not too distant past" they regularly engaged in the wholesale slaughter of their own citizens. That is a fact of history.

This is the real reason the U.S. constitution laid out a separation of Church and State.
It's not just to keep the Ten Commandments off courthouse and school room walls.

The general public may believe Christianity and the more radical elements of Islam appear to have little in common, but these newly enacted laws such as the "patriot act" once in place won't be easily repealed.

How long then will it be before all the independent Christians not a part of some World Council of Churches and States enabled by these anti-terrorism laws will be as branded potentially dangerous "fringe elements" and the system turns again on it's own citizens?
It's happened before and if John's vision in Rev. 13 is any indication of future events, it will happen again.

According to the book "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" published in 1886, the Vatican began an attempted take over of the United States more than 150 years ago.
If they had succeeded by now, do you think anyone would necessarily know about it.

Just like Eisenhower's final address warning of power in the shadows, Lincoln also had a last warning for his citizens. He said;...

"We don't need fear an enemies army invading us from without, but a subversion that comes from within in the form of a daily infestation of black robed priests upon our shores"

That is why people should study history for themselves. You're not going to get it on CNN.

*************
M*W: No matter what data or truth that you offer, Roger Pearse will attempt to refute it, because he is a christian apologist. I refuse to argue with him, I just don't have the time to go back and forth when the truth is shot to hell by someone who obviously has the time to quibble.

You are speaking the truth, and I hope you continue to do so.

 

[John99]

Keep telling yourself that. Maybe it'll work for you.

I heard many of those stories years ago. I'm not talking about them.
Let's talk about you, John. What is the name for what you do?
Who are the ones whose job it is to tell the people; "there is nothing to fear, go on back to your homes now"?

I know with animals it's called a Judas Goat that leads the sheep to the slaughter house. Then it jumps the gate.
What do the people who do this call themselves? Do you even know?

Just curious that's all.

What?

 

[John99]

*************
M*W: Where did I imply that??? Ancient people were sun worshippers like the Israelites in Canaan, and practically everybody in Egypt at one time or another. That does NOT imply they were "intellectually inferior!" Inferior to who? To what? Explain, please.


*************
M*W: I've provided a lot of bibliographical information about ancient sun worshippers. It's not an "assumption," it's a fact. No, we can't "ask" them if they were sun worshippers, the bibliographical information proves that. Go and read some of it before you comment.


*************
M*W: Human survival points to a metaphorical god--the sun.

My response was not addressing 'Sun Worship'. But i dont understand why this always eventually comes into these discussions. Can you explain that?

 

[TheVisitor]

What?

I'd ask Roger to explain it to you, but I've already called him a "herd animal" once so....
Maybe you'd better ask. He doesn't like my animal metaphors.
The term "christian apologist" however comes close to describing what I'm talking about.

Thanks M*W

 

[NMSquirrel]

It's not just to keep the Ten Commandments off courthouse and school room walls.

The general public may believe Christianity and the more radical elements of Islam appear to have little in common, but these newly enacted laws such as the "patriot act" once in place won't be easily repealed.

we don't need no more laws!..if ppl took responsibility for there own choices, would we need laws?
btw..look how quickly that law passed..(patriot act)..hmm

the Vatican began an attempted take over of the United States more than 150 years ago.
If they had succeeded by now, do you think anyone would necessarily know about it?

if they were,do you think there would be an issue with the ten commandments in court and class..

You're not going to get it on CNN.

very true

 

[John99]

I'd ask Roger to explain it to you, but I've already called him a "herd animal" once so....
Maybe you'd better ask. He doesn't like my animal metaphors.
The term "christian apologist" however comes close to describing what I'm talking about.

Thanks M*W

This is a discussion forum. You post and people respond.

 

[John99]

You get backed into a corner, dont like the answers you get then that is too bad. Dont call me a goat again.

 

[TheVisitor]

You get backed into a corner, dont like the answers you get then that is too bad. Dont call me a goat again.

Read it carefully again. I didn't call you a goat.
I asked you a question about people who do a certain thing.
If the shoe don't fit, it doesn't apply to you.

I find a lot can be learned from just observing nature.
But many people have a hard time with metaphors.

Sorry if I offended you.
Guess I've fallen off the "rude" wagon again.
It's really not my intention to leave people worse than I found them here.

 

[roger_pearse]

*************
M*W: No matter what data or truth that you offer, Roger Pearse will attempt to refute it, because he is a christian apologist.

Someone has religious issues here, I see, but I don't think it is me!

People are making all sorts of wild claims, which are supposed to be historical. I'm querying these, and asking to see evidence. If that upsets you, sorry! But ... wouldn't you rather base your beliefs on the right facts?

All the best,

Roger Pearse