Why Buddhism disappeared from India

[rcscwc]

The India girl I know, finishing her PhD, is really passionate regarding her anti-caste system beliefs. She is/was a low caste so I guess she intimately understands what it's like to be on the shit end of the bigot's stick.

While it may be true that living in a conservative Islamic country would be equally as bad, that doesn't take away from her point.

Also, she did mention about how Indians (Hindu or Buddhist I'm not sure) would patrol her housing blocks (which only have entrance via the main gates) because Muslims were burning down their houses while Hindu were burning down Muslims apartments. One time she was trapped her in apartment because of all the violence outside - which she said was pretty scary.

Another thing she says is funny is ex-pat Indian's who never lived in India sometimes give her shit because she's not acting like a "good" Indian girl... haha... they still think India is the way it was 80 years ago and carry on with traditions they don't even care about in India anymore

Interesting conversations....

Please don't be carried off. Let her com back to Indian, like every Indian aspires to, her outloojkn SHALL change. Exd pat Indians either are turn devout [sometines fundie] Hindus or convert, un-common. Bobby Jindal may have turned catholic, his parents and other family members have not. Strictly, he is an outcaste as for as real rituals are concerned. Will he cremate his parents according to Hindu rites. I doubt it.

 

[kmguru]

Please don't be carried off. Let her com back to Indian, like every Indian aspires to, her outloojkn SHALL change. Exd pat Indians either are turn devout [sometines fundie] Hindus or convert, un-common. Bobby Jindal may have turned catholic, his parents and other family members have not. Strictly, he is an outcaste as for as real rituals are concerned. Will he cremate his parents according to Hindu rites. I doubt it.

That is the problem with Hindus, They can not accept Indian children born in another country and culture. The vedic religion and the aryan philosophy is basically gone replaced by tribal beliefs under the name of Hinduism.

Bobby Jindal did not know anything about Hinduism. How could he? Everyone around him were Christians. It is not his fault though.

 

[jmpet]

To Hindus, Buddha was a prophet of Hinduism, just as to Muslims, Jesus was a prophet.

Buddha did not create or redefine a religion, he only perfected it: the religion of perfect inner awareness: to become Buddha.

Hindus dismiss Buddha the way Muslims dismiss Jesus.

I happen to be a Buddhist and follow in his ways, although I do not worship him.

As to the OP: the possibility of the lack of media is why Buddhism failed. Jesus had many writers and MANY writings, Buddha had far less and were revered (i.e. not duplicated).

Jesus was mass media, Buddhists were closeted.

As I am a Buddhist, I realize some people eventually come to Buddhism and realize it's an ultimate truth- a religious hole you can't get away from. We don't push the argument.

 

[rcscwc]

To Hindus, Buddha was a prophet of Hinduism, just as to Muslims, Jesus was a prophet.

Buddha did not create or redefine a religion, he only perfected it: the religion of perfect inner awareness: to become Buddha.

Hindus dismiss Buddha the way Muslims dismiss Jesus.

I happen to be a Buddhist and follow in his ways, although I do not worship him.

As to the OP: the possibility of the lack of media is why Buddhism failed. Jesus had many writers and MANY writings, Buddha had far less and were revered (i.e. not duplicated).

Jesus was mass media, Buddhists were closeted.

As I am a Buddhist, I realize some people eventually come to Buddhism and realize it's an ultimate truth- a religious hole you can't get away from. We don't push the argument.

Lack of media is not a factor. Till 1500 years ago, there were lot of Buddhist thinkers and authors. There were Jains too. But Hindus were able to marshal many more, plus there were six major schools busy criticising Buddhism, plus Jain thinkers chipping in. Around that that time, Vedanta got the upper hand and became stronger and stronger. Hindus were more tactful too. They never denigrated Buddha himself, while Buddhists did actively denigrate Vishnu, Rama and Krishna.

 

[jmpet]

...yet Buddhism survives.

 

[Yazata]

Historians don't really know why Buddhism virtually disappeared from India. There are lots of theories though and there were probably multiple reasons.

In my opinion, probably the most important reason was that Buddhism seems to have gradually lost its connection and its relevance to everyday householder life in the villages. Religious functions such as life-cycle observances were handled by the local Brahmans or by village traditions. The 7'th century Chinese visitor Hsuan-tsang visited the traditional Buddhist pilgimage sites and discovered many of them overgrown by weeds and almost abandoned. That tells me that the popular folk-Buddhism that had arisen in the time of Asoka was already in decline in the 640's.

The mainstream of late Indian Buddhism seems to have become more and more intellectual and scholastic in these years, centered in a smaller and smaller number of larger and larger monastic universities, each with thousands of scholar-monks. Hsuan-tsang spent years studying at Nalanda and took developed Yogacara Buddhism back to China as the Fa-hsiang school. Apparently there were lots of sometimes heated Madhyamika v. Yogacara polemics going on at Nalanda at that time. This highly scholastic tradition transferred itself into Tibet at the time of the Muslim invasions and was preserved there until the 20'th century, when the Chinese communists set about trying to destroy it.

These large monastic esablishments not only were extremely vulnerable to attack (which is precisely what the Muslims proceeded to do), they were also extremely dependent on royal patronage. Even in southern India where the Muslim impact was later and less destructive, the loss of patronage from Hindu dynasties led to the gradual disappearance of the monasteries. And without a vibrant folk-Buddhism in the villages to keep the religion going, the whole thing was eventually forgotten.

Another factor was the strong and vibrant revival of Vedantic philosophy in the last centuries of the first millenium CE. As Hindu philosophy matched Buddhist philosophy in sophistication, the latter lost a great deal of its long-time attraction for intellectuals.

And finally, Tantricism was strongly influencing both Hinduism and Buddhism around 1000 CE. That probably led to a growing Hindu-Buddhist syncretism that helped what popular Buddhism still existed by that time merge back into popular Hinduism.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Muslim open mindedness. Would love see a Buddhist in some muslim country like Pakistan or Afghanistan or Turkey.

In 2001, when the fundamentalist Muslim Taliban ruled Afghanistan, they destroyed the Buddhas of Banyam, two statues, 120 and 180ft tall (40 and 60m), world treasures that had been carved into a stone cliff more than 1500 years ago.

The Muslims had ruled Afghanistan for centuries, but it wasn't until recently that they got their hands on weapons powerful enough to destroy these works of art. Their excuse was that these were "idols," and their religious law, sharia, forbids tolerance of idols. In fact some Muslim advisors insist that even photographs of one's own family members are blasphemous and must be destroyed.

Although today most Afghanis are Muslim, they regarded this site as a national treasure and were as appalled by its destruction as the rest of the civilized world. The ruins have become a focal point for the international campaign for tolerance of religious expression. Japan and Switzerland have already pledged funds for its reconstruction.

 

[rcscwc]

...yet Buddhism survives.

Yes, it does. It does survive in Tibet, China, Mamgolia, Korea etc. But somehow, on philosophical level I cannot relate to them. Prince Siddhartha, an heir apparent, a tall Athletic, trained warrior [who never raised his sword except in training]. Reduced to a FAT, CORPULENT one in several images? Forget about these images. B was .... I do not have many adjectives. Mind you I am a Hindu.]


But not much in the land of origin. After about 700-800 CE Buddhism was unable to produce great thinkers who could either take on Vedanta or bridge the last gaps between both the thoughts. By that time Buddhist philosophy had come so close to Vedanta that the latter was able to claim originality.

I say the same to to those anti-Hindu Muslims and xians who claim that their "last" prophets were prophesied in Hindu scriptures. If true, come upto the ORIGINAL.

After about 800-900 CE, when Buddhism was safely out of the way, various Hindu schools started taking a more objective view of Buddhism. This was the period when Buddha was elevated as the Nineth avatar.

nindasi jajna-vidher ahaha shruti-jatam

sadaya-hridaya darshita-pashu-ghatam

keshava dhrita-buddha-sharira jaya jagadisha hare


O Keshava! O Lord of the universe! O Lord Hari, who have assumed
the form of Buddha. All glories to You. O Buddha of compassionate heart,
you descry the slaughtering of poor animals in rituals.


Yes, Hindus do admit that animal sacrifice was there [but where was it not?]. BUT, even before Buddha there was already a movement against animal SACRIFICE.

PS: Last time Buddha used his sword was to cut off his long hairs.

 

[rcscwc]

...yet Buddhism survives.

So does Hinduism. That too in the teeth of active Hindu persecution by muslim rulers. It survived 200 years xian persecution too. Today they are still one billion PLUS. How so? Has a religion ever survived without state and military support? Hinduism DID.

 

[rcscwc]

In 2001, when the fundamentalist Muslim Taliban ruled Afghanistan, they destroyed the Buddhas of Banyam, two statues, 120 and 180ft tall (40 and 60m), world treasures that had been carved into a stone cliff more than 1500 years ago.

The Muslims had ruled Afghanistan for centuries, but it wasn't until recently that they got their hands on weapons powerful enough to destroy these works of art. Their excuse was that these were "idols," and their religious law, sharia, forbids tolerance of idols. In fact some Muslim advisors insist that even photographs of one's own family members are blasphemous and must be destroyed.

Although today most Afghanis are Muslim, they regarded this site as a national treasure and were as appalled by its destruction as the rest of the civilized world. The ruins have become a focal point for the international campaign for tolerance of religious expression. Japan and Switzerland have already pledged funds for its reconstruction.

Unfortunately, Bamian was not an eco0nomic issue. When money matters, things change.


Just google for hinglas temple.
It is is Balochistan, Pakistan. A temple which attracts almost every Hindu of Pakistan AND from India. Why was it never molested post 1947?

Better ggogle for it.

 

[S.A.M.]

...yet Buddhism survives.

Not really, not in India. In India, Buddhism has become the sanctum of those attempting to escape the caste system, but even then, these Dalit Buddhists maintain their Hindu gods and goddesses, simply adding Buddha to the temple, the way they would add Sai Baba or put flowers at the mausoleum of Haji Ali.

The Buddhist movement was somewhat hindered by Dr. Ambedkar's death so shortly after his conversion. It did not receive the immediate mass support from the Untouchable population that Ambedkar had hoped for. Division and lack of direction among the leaders of the Ambedkarite movement have been an additional impediment. According to the 2001 census, there are currently 7.95 million Buddhists in India, at least 5.83 million of whom are Buddhists in Maharashtra[8]. This makes Buddhism the fifth-largest religion in India and 6% of the population of Maharashtra, but less than 1% of the overall population of India.

According to Dr. Gail Omvedt, an American-born and naturalized Indian sociologist and human rights activist :
“ Ambedkar's Buddhism seemingly differs from that of those who accepted by faith, who 'go for refuge' and accept the canon. This much is clear from its basis: it does not accept in totality the scriptures of the Theravada, the Mahayana, or the Vajrayana. The question that is then clearly put forth: is a fourth yana, a Navayana, a kind of modernistic Enlightenment version of the Dhamma really possible within the framework of Buddhism?

I would say one of the reasons Buddhism failed in India is because Indians are spiritually fatalists. They believe in karma and destiny and have a syncretic outlook towards God. Buddhism fails to meet the expectations that Indians have of religion.

 

[rcscwc]

Not really, not in India. In India, Buddhism has become the sanctum of those attempting to escape the caste system, but even then, these Dalit Buddhists maintain their Hindu gods and goddesses, simply adding Buddha to the temple, the way they would add Sai Baba or put flowers at the mausoleum of Haji Ali.

Yet those Buddhists do not tear themselves away from castes. Mahendra Baudh is a BUDDHIST, yet claims to be of dalit caste AND has a certificate to that effect AND is a member of Nation Commiission for Scheduled Castes. Why is he clinging to his caste? Mayawati too is like that. A Buddhist she claims to be, but at the same time she produces her caste CERTIFICATE too!! Haha. Some escapees.

Why did Ambedkar become a Buddhist? Simple dude. It allowed him to retain his caste certificate!! A shrewd move.

 

[S.A.M.]

True. But what Indian would sacrifice pragmatism for ideology? Those SCST certificates are like gold mines

 

[rcscwc]

True. But what Indian would sacrifice pragmatism for ideology? Those SCST certificates are like gold mines

Yes, GOLD mines. Now you hear of muslim and xian DALITS too. They too want a seam of that gold mine.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yes, GOLD mines. Now you hear of muslim and xian DALITS too. They too want a seam of that gold mine.

Doesn't everyone? Those are the OBCs, I think. I'm a bit confused about how they categorise the "backward" classes. Personally, I think the basis for aid should be financial status, rather than caste or neo-caste. However it makes sense that most Muslim, Christian and Buddhist Dalits used conversion to get out of the caste cycle but still want to avail of the benefits made available to the lower socio economic classes which were comprised largely of the untouchables, the adivasis and the smaller denominations of older religions. Those with the financial ability to educate and employ themselves should be disqualified from government aid to SCSTs

 

[rcscwc]

Doesn't everyone? Those are the OBCs, I think. I'm a bit confused about how they categorise the "backward" classes. Personally, I think the basis for aid should be financial status, rather than caste or neo-caste.

AND they bemoan caste system. Only they bemoan.