Why do ghosts wear human clothes?

[Magical Realist]

Those explanations are real, have been documented and are tangible. Ghosts are none of those things.

See the difference?

Do you understand the difference?


Just as they have the right to remind you of what other posters have said.

See how that works?

Which is what gets them ignored. See how that works? I will not tolerate trolls presuming to speak for other posters.

 

[Magical Realist]

Uhm... yeah, no. The English language would like to have a moment with you...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paranormal


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/paranormal


http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/paranormal


meanwhile:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extraordinary


I think it's safe to say that "extraordinary" quite exactly defines paranormal.

No it doesn't. The definitions you listed don't match at all. Paranormal involves supernatural agencies and events that are beyond scientific explanations, and extraordinary means out of the ordinary. The paranormal isn't out of the ordinary. 1 out 5 americans reports seeing a ghost. That makes it pretty common.

 

[James R]

Magical Realist:

Perception is not "failing" when you are intentionally tricked by people not to see something. Your video proves nothing about perception and everything about being tricked.

Somebody who is right there in front of you suddenly changes the colour of his t-shirt, and you don't even notice it. But your perception hasn't failed you. Ok.

I don't know about you, but I saw a rock shaped like a face. How did my perception fail? Isn't that exactly what it is?

Nobody shaped that rock to look like a face. That's just a natural rock formation. The face isn't really there. The face is all in your mind. You constructed the face.

The interesting question is: why do you see a face in the rock? The answer is that your brain is wired to seek out faces. Sometimes, it sees faces even where there are none. Examples include rock formations and ... wait for it ... fuzzy photos with indistinct blurs in the background that your brain can assemble as a face. The photo doesn't have to be a deliberate fake. Nobody has to intend to fool you. Your own brain will do that just fine.

And I don't believe people remember things that haven't happened. Maybe if they are tricked into it by being convinced it happened. But not on their own.

Did you actually read the article I linked you to? Numerous scientific studies show beyond doubt that people remember things that haven't happened. And they don't need to be "tricked into it", either.

You probably think your memory is like a reliable camera that takes a movie or a series of snapshots of everything you experience. Memory isn't like that at all. Every time your remember something, part of that memory is based on what happened, and part of it is reconstructed by your brain into a plausible story that you tell yourself about what probably happened.

Because that's what you post most the time. Articles by Benjamin Radford or Joe Nickel debunking something I've posted about.

You sound angry that these people have convincingly dismantled some of your favorite ghost stories. Is that it?

I have no compelling reason to doubt they're real photos. Do you?

It varies from case to case.

Right. And the two right above it.

I'll take a look at a couple of your videos a bit later when I have time. Then I'll post my thoughts about them.

If you're referring to EVPs, you should know that many are of high quality fidelity and capture the voice quite clearly. Other voices and screams and whispers are caught as well. Ofcourse you will say if the voice recording is clear, it is probably faked.

That seems likely.

I misperceived nothing. I saw a rock shaped like face. And that's exactly what it is. It certainly doesn't explain why people would hallucinate something like a ghost.

It sure suggests one reason why you might interpret that fuzzy blur at the back of the grainy black-and-white photo to be a face.

I think lots of things are cool. Tornadoes. Alligators. Black holes. Quantum entanglement. If you were convinced ghosts were real, wouldn't you think them cool? I'm sure you would. Why is that an argument for them not being real?

I didn't use that as an argument for ghosts not being real. Try to keep up.

There are no scientific explorations of the paranormal because they would be mocked and ridiculed out of being funded. No peer reviewed journal would dare publish the results of an investigation that presented objective evidence for ghosts. Scientists stick to what is good for their careers. And this area is taboo. It's a sure career killer.

If the evidence for ghosts is so convincing, how can it be that it is so easy to ridicule? Convincing evidence can't just be laughed away, no matter how good you think that might be for your career.

Blind skepticism can be as bad as blind faith. The narrow and deliberate doubting of all evidence to support the preconclusion that such things don't exist.

I agree. If you're doing blind skepticism, then you're doing skepticism wrong. A skeptic is not the same as a cynic.

The alien abduction phenomenon is complicated by often occurring when people are in bed. In this sense it can often display the charateristics of a paralysis nightmare. But there are several cases of these abductions occuring when people were out on the road or in the woods. Most involve missing time.

More anecdotes. And lots of people looking for their 15 minutes of fame - some of them quite successfully.

You don't see what you expect to see. You expect what is normally seen.

People normally see ghosts in haunted houses and the like, I hear.

Those three videos for starters. See also the video after this post. Do you want convincing investigations? I could post them...

I doubt you know what a proper scientific investigation would look like. You'd do well to read some articles by Joe Nickell, even though he takes the joy out of your life by destroying your fantasies.

No..unless I have a compelling reason to doubt. As in, do these people have mental illness? Do they have an agenda they are pushing? Stuff like that. I don't dismiss it simply because it COULD be faked.

You believe it unless you're sure it was faked. Whereas I won't believe it unless there's convincing evidence it is real. See the difference?

It's a lot of work. I'm not sure it's worth arguing with someone whose already made up their mind on this issue.

Then why are you here? To advertise your wares to other gullible believers?

If you really just want a club to share your favorite videos with and who will look and say "Oh, amazing stuff, Magical Realist! Just more proof that ghosts are real. Thanks! Wow!" then you're probably on the wrong forum. I'm sure there are lots of sites full of believers that would love to welcome you into the fold (if you're not there already). You can have a good old chat about how scientists aren't interested in truth but only in securing their precarious careers. You can dream about the day when all the scientists will be once-and-for-all proved wrong, and you will be heroes.

Birch has already responded to you. In no sense was she/he insulting you. Why you would assume that is beyond me.

I didn't assume that. Nor did I write anything to that effect.

Perhaps you're getting flustered by this topic. Why is it so personal for you that all this must be fake?

It's not personal to me. I don't care if ghosts are real or not. I'll follow where the evidence leads.

What is at stake here for you?

I'm a fan of reality. I'd rather than people believed in stuff that was real than have them waste precious time on nonsense. We only live once.

When I think about it, I guess what's at stake for me is that I'd prefer to live in a society where people learn how to think critically about things. Such a society would look for evidence-based solutions to the issues confronting it, rather than ones based on fantasy or wishful thinking or ideology.

If I can play a small part in encouraging people to think critically rather than accepting bullshit blindly, I figure I will have done the wider society some small service. Because learning to think critically about ghosts is a transferable skill that enables a person to start to think critically about other aspects of his or her life and the society in which he she lives. That can only be a good thing.

Are you afraid it is all religiously connected? That it all proves something like an afterlife? Personally the prospect of being trapped in some limbo ghost zone doesn't exactly thrill me. I'd rather believe we just cease to exist.

I don't know why you think I'd be worried about an afterlife, at least if it is the paradise that the religions promise. Nor am I worried about religion per se, although religious belief can have all kinds of bad effects on people (see ISIS, for an obvious example).

As for the religious connection, I don't think you'll find many atheists who believe in ghosts. A belief in one supernatural thing makes belief in other supernatural things far more likely, I think you'd agree. More generally, a belief in one form of woo makes it far more likely that a person will believe in other forms of woo. Some people believe in a whole lot of woo. Why? Because they never learned to think critically. And so they make themselves willing victims of fraudsters and charlatans.

 

[paddoboy]

The paranormal isn't out of the ordinary. 1 out 5 americans reports seeing a ghost. That makes it pretty common.

Gullibility is certainly rather common. I'm still with the more critical 4 out of 5 that are not as gullible.
And again, extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

 

[Magical Realist]

Then why are you here? To advertise your wares to other gullible believers?

Actually it's to inform and enlighten the supposedly LEAST gullible of all---the science geeks who hang out in this forum all day and take out their frustrations on other less "scientific" posters.

If you really just want a club to share your favorite videos with and who will look and say "Oh, amazing stuff, Magical Realist! Just more proof that ghosts are real. Thanks! Wow!" then you're probably on the wrong forum. I'm sure there are lots of sites full of believers that would love to welcome you into the fold (if you're not there already). You can have a good old chat about how scientists aren't interested in truth but only in securing their precarious careers. You can dream about the day when all the scientists will be once-and-for-all proved wrong, and you will be heroes.

Why would I wanna preach to the choir? To the ones already accepting of these possibilities? No, I post here in the forum set aside precisely for the topics I am posting about to discuss and debate the issues with others. I'd like people to see the evidence for these things so they can make an informed decision about them. Same as you and your crusade to teach everyone critical thinking on this science site. As if that will somehow save humanity from the evils of superstition and ignorance. I find it ironic that a discussion forum dedicated to free thought and open dialogue should get so defensive about subjects like these. As if merely believing in such things makes me the member of some evil infiltrating underground. I don't think you people have anything to worry about if your position is so secure. I'm simply providing evidence and logical arguments for astonishing things that you and your cohorts do all in your power to deny exist. What's so horrible about that? That's the way of science isn't it? If I'm mistaken, it should be relatively easy to show me the errors of my ways. So far though that hasn't been done. Not to my knowledge.

 

[paddoboy]

I find it ironic that a discussion forum dedicated to free thought and open dialogue should get so defensive about subjects like these. As if merely believing in such things makes me the member of some evil infiltrating underground. I don't think you people have anything to worry if your position is so secure. I'm simply providing evidence for things that you deny exist. What's so horrible about that? If I'm mistaken, it should be relatively easy to show me the errors of my ways. So far though that hasn't been done. Not to my knowledge.

Of course its been done...and it's all been explained to you, its just not what you want to hear.
And no one is getting defensive, in fact as has been shown of some of your posts of late, when your credibility has been brought into question, it's yourself getting defensive and emotive.......

I will not have people tell me what other posters have said or mean and will ignore them freely if they do. That's my right. But then you knew that.

Tell me what James R said and meant one more time and you're ignored. Got it?

You'll lie and misquote just as you've done here. That's the nature of trolls. If you lie about me again I'll report your ass.

 

[DaveC426913]

Actually it's to inform and enlighten the supposedly LEAST gullible of all---the science geeks who hang out in this forum all day and take out their frustrations on other less "scientific" posters.

Why thank you.

You see us as highly scientific and not gullible.

That's a huge compliment, and sign of respect, coming from an erstwhile opponent.

 

[Daecon]

Actually it's to inform and enlighten the supposedly LEAST gullible of all---the science geeks who hang out in this forum all day and take out their frustrations on other less "scientific" posters.



Why would I wanna preach to the choir? To the ones already accepting of these possibilities? No, I post here in the forum set aside precisely for the topics I am posting about to discuss and debate the issues with others. I'd like people to see the evidence for these things so they can make an informed decision about them. Same as you and your crusade to teach everyone critical thinking on this science site. As if that will somehow save humanity from the evils of superstition and ignorance. I find it ironic that a discussion forum dedicated to free thought and open dialogue should get so defensive about subjects like these. As if merely believing in such things makes me the member of some evil infiltrating underground. I don't think you people have anything to worry about if your position is so secure. I'm simply providing evidence and logical arguments for astonishing things that you and your cohorts do all in your power to deny exist. What's so horrible about that? That's the way of science isn't it? If I'm mistaken, it should be relatively easy to show me the errors of my ways. So far though that hasn't been done. Not to my knowledge.

Considering that you keep ignoring any attempts to show you the error of your ways, what exactly are you looking for?

It's been explained what it would take for science to accept the existence of ghosts, but what would it take to convince you that ghosts aren't real?

 

[Kittamaru]

No it doesn't. The definitions you listed don't match at all. Paranormal involves supernatural agencies and events that are beyond scientific explanations, and extraordinary means out of the ordinary. The paranormal isn't out of the ordinary. 1 out 5 americans reports seeing a ghost. That makes it pretty common.

Apparently you have a very special definition of "ordinary"... considering you prefer to show blatant disregard for logic, reason, and the English language in a sad attempt to justify your illogical ramblings, I'm honestly not surprised.

 

[Magical Realist]

Considering that you keep ignoring any attempts to show you the error of your ways, what exactly are you looking for?

It's been explained what it would take for science to accept the existence of ghosts, but what would it take to convince you that ghosts aren't real?

You'd have to show every person who's ever reported paranormal activity and every investigative group who ever did an investigation that had evidence was faking it or deluded by something mundane. There's no way you could do that. The phenomena is too prevalent and shows the same patterns over and over again.

 

[Daecon]

There's no way you could do that.

So you're saying that there's essentially nothing that would ever convince you that you're wrong?

And you think skeptics are close-minded?

 

[Magical Realist]

So you're saying that there's essentially nothing that would ever convince you that you're wrong?

And you think skeptics are close-minded?

I've seen the evidence. 14 years of studying this field and observing hundreds of investigations. You can't undo all that evidence. You can't argue it out of existence. It is what it is.

 

[Kittamaru]

I've seen the evidence. 14 years of studying this field and observing hundreds of investigations. You can't undo all that evidence. You can't argue it out of existence. It is what it is.

I can think of something that would convince me ghosts are real...

I doubt anyone is willing (or capable) of making it happen though

 

[DaveC426913]

You'd have to show every person who's ever reported paranormal activity and every investigative group who ever did an investigation that had evidence was faking it or deluded by something mundane. There's no way you could do that.

That is tantamount to everything is real until and unless shown to be otherwise.

That is exactly upside down.

That is the tenet of the gullible, not the thoughtful.

 

[DaveC426913]

I've seen the evidence. 14 years of studying this field and observing hundreds of investigations. You can't undo all that evidence. You can't argue it out of existence. It is what it is.

There is no way you've been seriously and objectively studying this for 14 years without having become a skeptic.
An armchair paranormologist, maybe.

 

[Magical Realist]

There is no way you've been seriously and objectively studying this for 14 years without having become a skeptic.
An armchair paranormologist, maybe.

How long have you been studying it?

 

[Magical Realist]

That is tantamount to everything is real until and unless shown to be otherwise.

That is exactly upside down.

That is the tenet of the gullible, not the thoughtful.

LOL! Yes..everything people report seeing and hearing is real unless there is a compelling reason to doubt them. That's just called sane living.

 

[DaveC426913]

LOL! Yes..everything people report seeing and hearing is real unless there is a compelling reason to doubt them. That's just called sane living.

Now your stance on ghosts makes perfect sense.

It is not about skepticism, or investigation at all. Someone tells you something (or you read something that someone wrote, or you hear something that someone said about someone else's experience) and you take it as true.

This is a very, very different debate than any objective assessment of facts or accounts.

This is an issue of faith.

 

[Kittamaru]

LOL! Yes..everything people report seeing and hearing is real unless there is a compelling reason to doubt them. That's just called sane living.

Except there IS compelling reason to doubt them... chief among them the fact that our senses are fallible and easily fooled into making something out of nothing. This has been shown and proven to you several times, yet you continue to pretend it doesn't exist... then you have the audacity to wonder why you are considered dishonest.

 

[Magical Realist]

Except there IS compelling reason to doubt them... chief among them the fact that our senses are fallible and easily fooled into making something out of nothing. This has been shown and proven to you several times, yet you continue to pretend it doesn't exist... then you have the audacity to wonder why you are considered dishonest.

Move along troll or I'll report you for insults and flaming as usual.