Write4U's wobbly world of word salad woo

Is there another less obvious and not literal sense of the word "creative" as : marked by the ability or power to create : given to creating

Please clarify.
The universe created a lot of stuff and is still doing this.

However, the video mentioned “purpose” which is completely the wrong to use, unless you want to introduce an outside agency who has a plan.

Fine, but if you think that, we put down our science book and pray for a revelation on why things happen.

Nothing wrong with MIT credentials, not sure on Templeton.
 
If I didn't know any better I would say he wanted to stick a creator in there.
It felt very cdesign.
Yes I’ve watched it too now and I rather agree. He seems to suggest these disparate orderly systems may be “selected for” on the basis of having “purpose”. This seems dodgy to me. But I can’t find evidence that Hazen is an evangelical, or involved with ID. The Templeton foundation seems more or less kosher.
 
However, the video mentioned “purpose” which is completely the wrong to use, unless you want to introduce an outside agency who has a plan.
Ah yes, there is that implication. But I read that a little differently.

What if something evolves and is naturally selected because it has purpose and gives an adavantage to the possessing "pattern".

The purpose of a fin is to123:
  • Provide stability and help fish swim
  • Increase surface area for heat transfer
  • Produce lift or thrust
  • Allow steering or stabilization in water, air, or other fluids
None of these acquired functional properties suggest intent.
 
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Ah yes, there is that implication. But I read that a little differently.

What if something evolves and is naturally selected because it has purpose and gives an adavantage to the possessing "pattern".

The purpose of a fin is to123:
  • Provide stability and help fish swim
  • Increase surface area for heat transfer
  • Produce lift or thrust
  • Allow steering or stabilization in water, air, or other fluids
None of these acquired functional properties suggest intent.
No one is doubting natural selection but you are looking back.

Once you have a fin it is obvious, I am talking before you have one and this is what this is about.Evolution has no foresight and no goal.

If millions of years were spent selecting for the perfect swimming mechanisms like gills and fins, then all the rivers dry up because of a climatic event, the fish die.
Nice plan there Evolution, was the purpose of the fin to wipe all those species out?
What about two small legs just in case?
My example is not far fetched there have been about 6 or 7 global extinction events.
So, I do not like "purpose" unless that is death. 99.9% of ALL species that have ever existed on this planet have gone extinct.
 
Evolution has no foresight and no goal.
I agree with your argument, but evolution has probability factor and that's produces the same thing, except for dedicated time frame.
Intent is not needed, only inherent evolutionary potential for a variety of purposes.
4 fingers and a thumb make great tool manipulaters, 5 webbed fingers make great fins, or wings, or mud waders, or toes for balance.
A coffe cup makes a decent paper weight.

I believe that's what Bohm called, "the implicate order", potential that may become reality as the "explicate order"
 
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I believe that's what Bohm called, "the implicate order", potential that may become reality as the "explicate order"
No no no. You have been quite ok so far. You use that silly phrase and I'm out.
So no Bohm.
No Hameroff.
No Microtubules.
And NO Tegmark. We've done it!
 
I agree with your argument, but evolution has probability factor and that's produces the same thing, except for dedicated time frame.
Evolution is understood, it is not a good example. Genes are already fully functional and the organisms that carry them.

Systems chemistry and Abiogenesis specifically are not fully understood.
We know the ingredients and something of the environments but not how it got started.
Or even where, probably on earth, in the sea but maybe not.
 
Evolution is understood, it is not a good example. Genes are already fully functional and the organisms that carry them.
Yes, but mitosis is not perfect and the chromosomal formula gets changed during the copying process. That results in a functional change that may be detrimental and results in functional extinction or beneficial and results in functional evolution.
We know the ingredients and something of the environments but not how it got started.
But the same process that today drives evolutionary change in chromosomes is the same that drove the evolutionary change in biochemical polymers that led to abiogenesis, because the potential for that change was an inherent potential that had a probability of becoming expressed at some future date under the right environmental circumstances.. And here we are.

That is how I understand Hazen from this excellent video of his lecture at Carnegie Institute. Simple and direct.

start @ 12:00 to avoid lengthy introduction.
 
Is there another less obvious and not literal sense of the word "creative" as : marked by the ability or power to create : given to creating

Please clarify.
Yes.

The simplest, literal meaning of "create", is to bring something into existence.

But "create" can also mean "bring into existence by artistic means" or "bring into existence a manufactured product".

Particularly in the context of evolution, "create" is often a loaded word, due to arguments made by people who literally call(ed) themselves "Creationists", who claim that there is a supernatural Creator of living things (typically a god).

Write4U: you wrote that "evolution is a creative process without a creator".

If, by that, you only meant that life on earth was "brought into existence" by the mechanisms of evolution, then in the simplest, literal sense, that is unremarkable.

However, it's still a bad choice of words, because a lot of people will be inclined to read the existence of a conscious or purposeful Creator into talk of "creation", in this context.

You should probably avoid using the word "creation" in the context of evolution, precisely because there is no "Creator" involved (except in the most literal sense, as I mentioned).

Do you agree?
 
If a new law is discovered, it existed prior to discovery.
Correct. I was reporting on what other people said. I do not believe that laws are discovered. I believe they are created - manufactured by human beings.
 
The Templeton foundation seems more or less kosher.

It has always struck me as an organisation that has certain agendas that are questionable. It's a bit of a mixed bag, but judge for yourself.

It's worth taking a look at the Wikipedia article on the Templeton Foundation.

Some key points follow. All of what follows is quoted from wikipedia:
---

The foundation administers the annual Templeton Prize for achievements in the field of spirituality, including those at the intersection of science and religion. It has an extensive grant-funding program (around $150 million per year as of 2016) aimed at supporting research in physics, biology, psychology, and the social sciences as well as philosophy and theology. It also supports programs related to genetics, "exceptional cognitive talent and genius" and "individual freedom and free markets". The foundation receives both praise and criticism for its awards, regarding the breadth of its coverage, and ideological perspectives asserted to be associated with them.

...​

The Templeton Prize was established by John Templeton and he administered the prize until the foundation was established in 1987, which took it over The prize has "a value of about $1.7 million, making it one of the world’s largest annual awards given to an individual".

The early prizes were given solely to people who had made great achievements in the field of religion; Mother Teresa received the inaugural award in 1973, with other early winners including Sir Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, Chiara Lubich (1977), and Nikkyō Niwano (1979). In the 1980s, John Templeton began considering the intersection of science and religion, and after he appointed two scientists to the judging panel, scientists who worked at the intersection began receiving it; Alister Hardy was the first, in 1987. More recent winners of the Templeton Prize have included the Dalai Lama in 2012, King Abdullah II of Jordan in 2018, Brazilian Jewish physicist and astronomer Marcelo Gleiser in 2019, and primatologist Jane Goodall in 2021.

... While most of its funding goes to topics in science, philosophy, and religion, around 40 percent of its annual grants go to character development, genius, freedom, free enterprise, and fields associated with classical liberalism. Grants are given to people across all religions since Templeton believed progress in the field of spirituality could come from anywhere. The field of grants was broadened in the 1980s to include scientific fields like neuroscience, psychology, and cosmology, seen as being aligned with the mission.

Some research programs supported by the foundation included the development of positive psychology by Martin Seligman, Angela Duckworth and others; the Black Hole Initiative at Harvard University; the Gen2Gen Encore Prize; the World Science Festival; Pew religious demographics surveys; and programs that engage with Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant traditions, including support for dialogue with scientists in synagogues, and a grant for advancing scientific literacy in madrasas.

....
The foundation has received both praise and criticism for its awards. The French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS) has been critical of the foundation for funding "initiatives to bring science and religion closer together." Science journalist Chris Mooney, an atheist, received a 2010 Templeton-Cambridge Journalism Fellowship. In a 2010 article on his Discover magazine blog, Mooney wrote, "I can honestly say that I have found the lectures and presentations that we've heard here to be serious and stimulating. The same goes for the discussions that have followed them".

Some scholars have expressed concerns about the nature of the awards, research projects, and publications backed by the foundation. These concerns include questioning its integrity, cronyism, and its Templeton Freedom Awards. Journalist Sunny Bains pointed out in 2011 that Templeton Freedom Awards are administered by the Atlas Economic Research Foundation, a group that opposes taking action on climate change and defends the tobacco industry, which also gives the foundation funding.
....
Critics have asserted that the foundation has supported Christian-oriented research in the field of the scientific study of religions. Wired magazine noted in 1999 that "the scientific-review and grant-award process at the Templeton Foundation is run by Charles Harper, an Oxford-trained planetary scientist specializing in star and planet formation who has a degree in theology. Harper himself is an Evangelical Christian; the scientists who apply to the foundation for support, though, are not required to state their religious beliefs, or to have any."

In 2006, John Horgan, a 2005 Templeton-Cambridge fellow then working as a freelance science journalist, wrote in The Chronicle of Higher Education that he had enjoyed his fellowship, but felt guilty that by taking money from the foundation, he had contributed to the mingling of science with religion. Horgan stated "misgivings about the foundation's agenda of reconciling religion and science". He said that a conference he attended favored scientists who "offered a perspective clearly skewed in favor of religion and Christianity." Horgan fears recipients of large grants from the foundation sometimes write what the foundation wants rather than what they believe.

Richard Dawkins, in his 2006 book, The God Delusion, interprets Horgan as saying that "Templeton's money corrupts science", and characterizes the prize as going "usually to a scientist who is prepared to say something nice about religion".

Donald Wiebe, a scholar of religious studies at the University of Toronto, similarly criticized the foundation in a 2009 article entitled Religious Biases in Funding Religious Studies Research?. According to him, the foundation supports Christian bias in the field of religious studies, by deliberately imposing constraints to steer the results of the research.

Jerry Coyne, University of Chicago evolutionary biologist, told Nature writer Mitchell Waldrop that the foundation's purpose is to eliminate the wall between religion and science, and to use science's prestige to validate religion.

A 2007 article in the LA Times described the foundation as having "drawn criticism for its early support of intelligent design".

Some organizations funded by the foundation in the 1990s gave book-writing grants to Guillermo Gonzalez and to William Dembski, proponents of intelligent design who later joined the Discovery Institute. The foundation also gave money directly to the Discovery Institute which in turn passed it through to Baylor University, which used the funds to support Dembski's salary at its short-lived Michael Polanyi Center.

A number of journalists have highlighted connections with conservative causes.

Sociologist Robert Brulle listed the foundation as among the largest financial contributors to the climate change denial movement between 2003 and 2010.
 
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