WWII Samuri Sub Carries/Launches Planes

[Orleander]

I have never heard of these subs. Was the technology kept secret, or just their location?

...When World War II ended in 1945, the U.S. Navy seized the Japanese fleet in the Pacific, including five samurai subs, as they're called in the new film. The subs were later sunk, to keep the technology out of the hands of the Soviet Union.The military didn't record where the boats had been laid to rest, thinking no one would want to know...

...Two bombers inside the samurai sub I-14's watertight hangar (pictured in a computer-generated cutaway image) could catapult off the deck within minutes of surfacing, say archaeologists who found the wreck of the World War II Japanese submarine off Hawaii in February 2009.

In dry dock the I-14 submarine stood almost four stories high and, at 375 feet (114 meters), was longer than a football field. The Japanese aircraft-carrying submarine held up to three folding-wing float planes armed with 1,800-pound (816-kilogram) bombs.

That a submarine could have bombing capability was an idea well ahead of its time, said NOAA's Van Tilburg. "That concept is so powerful, because essentially that's what we have today," he said, referring to modern submarines armed with guided missiles.

 

[Killjoy]

I have never heard of these subs. Was the technology kept secret, or just their location?

Probably both, at least as far as not letting the Russians get their hands on 'em. I think the general idea in regard to that was not to let Crazy Ivan get ahold of any Axis equipment that might be in any way innovative which Ivan could then copy.

IIRC, the I-400 class were supposed to have been intended to make an attack on the Panama Canal at some point during the war. I don't think the actual setup with the internal hangar and catapult on the deck involved any revolutionary technology. Just a big watertight chamber, really. Also, battleships of the day used catapult launched floatplanes as scouts, by way of comparison.

Plus it's a hell of an investment to carry a whopping three aircraft.


I mean - the thing's sheer size is impresive, but it's just so "typically Japanese" in it's impractical weirdness.

Pic of the hangar hatch - supposedly I-400 - here:
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Images8/HangarDoorI-400Class.jpg

I-400 at sea - you can see the aircraft storage compartment and catapult quite well - here:
http://www.amazing-planet.net/slike/I400/sen_toku.gif

 

[fedr808]

Probably both, at least as far as not letting the Russians get their hands on 'em. I think the general idea in regard to that was not to let Crazy Ivan get ahold of any Axis equipment that might be in any way innovative which Ivan could then copy.

IIRC, the I-400 class were supposed to have been intended to make an attack on the Panama Canal at some point during the war. I don't think the actual setup with the internal hangar and catapult on the deck involved any revolutionary technology. Just a big watertight chamber, really. Also, battleships of the day used catapult launched floatplanes as scouts, by way of comparison.

Plus it's a hell of an investment to carry a whopping three aircraft.


I mean - the thing's sheer size is impresive, but it's just so "typically Japanese" in it's impractical weirdness.

Pic of the hangar hatch - supposedly I-400 - here:
http://ahoy.tk-jk.net/Images8/HangarDoorI-400Class.jpg

I-400 at sea - you can see the aircraft storage compartment and catapult quite well - here:
http://www.amazing-planet.net/slike/I400/sen_toku.gif

It was a stroke of genius, the major ship production and training facilities were on the east coast, the pacific war, on the west.

The idea is that theyd bomb just one water gate, whilch would empty the entire canal, preventing reinforcements for months at a time, and when repairs ahd been enacted, bomb em again.

 

[Orleander]

When that thing came up on radar, could they see how ginormous it was?

 

[fedr808]

When that thing came up on radar, could they see how ginormous it was?

the sub? the US did not have patrol ships monitoring every part of the ocean, and even than their radar was meant to detect a battleship around 200 feet high from waterline to mast, not a sub which is around 50-60.

And also, the US suspected an attack on the panama canal to be on the same level of likelihood of Jesus coming back down, walking on water, and stopping the war, and actually when the possibility was dicussed during world war 2 im positive someone in high command probably said something very similar.

For starters nobody thought the ability to launch seaplanes from a sub was possible.

And just as a thought, whom was the idiot that made that 3d model? why would he put planes on the side of the sub? theyd never work. even if the sub had dived for thirty seconds theyd become inoperable.

Oh my apologies there, i jsut realized they were put there for purposes of scaling, the author wasnt implying thats how they were stored

 

[Dywyddyr]

The subs were later sunk, to keep the technology out of the hands of the Soviet Union.

Um, like that was gonna work.
We Brits had done it prior to WWII, as had the French.
Not exactly bomber-carriers, but the principle is the same.

 

[Killjoy]

And also, the US suspected an attack on the panama canal to be on the same level of likelihood of Jesus coming back down, walking on water, and stopping the war, and actually when the possibility was dicussed during world war 2 im positive someone in high command probably said something very similar.

An air attack was apparently one of their big concerns

As far as the defense of the canal was concerned, Lt. Gen. Frank M. Andrews, Commanding General, Caribbean Defense Command, considered the third locks project a hindrance rather than a help. "The greatest danger to the Canal today," he wrote in May 1942, "is an air raid which would damage the lake level gates to the extent that would result in the loss of water in Gatun Lake ....
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch12.htm

Canal defenses included rardar installations, anti-aircraft gus, and air fields.

And just as a thought, whom was the idiot that made that 3d model? why would he put planes on the side of the sub? theyd never work. even if the sub had dived for thirty seconds theyd become inoperable.

Oh my apologies there, i jsut realized they were put there for purposes of scaling, the author wasnt implying thats how they were stored

The artwork in the OP seems to show the aircraft hangar as transparent/translucent in order to illustrate where they were stored.

 

[fedr808]

An air attack was apparently one of their big concernsTheir big concern was with the soloman islands, guadalcanal airfield, Australia, midway, and maybe just a little bit, the Aleutian islands. They were not concerned with the canal.


Canal defenses included rardar installations, anti-aircraft gus, and air fields.

They were not adequate in the least. keep in mind America had no idea of the existance of such subs. They would think it impossible for any fleet to hit the canal with a carrier force impossible. If the Americans knew about the subs theyd have been more careful.



The artwork in the OP seems to show the aircraft hangar as transparent/translucent in order to illustrate where they were stored.ahh i see your point.

The only problem when you think of it, is that it is a one or maybe two strike deal. After the first strike the Americans would reinforce it.

Which the Japanese really should have put more effort into that objective. Every aa gun and fighter at the canal is one that is not fighting the Japanese.

Take the marine raiders, they were extremely controversial at the time because they were meant to land on islands blow up as much as possible and escape via submarine. Their goal wasnt to just blow things up, that was a secondary goal, their primary was more strategic which was to make the japanese reinforce all their island defences, the idea being that it took away resources from other things.

 

[fedr808]

Um, like that was gonna work.
We Brits had done it prior to WWII, as had the French.
Not exactly bomber-carriers, but the principle is the same.

I am amazed that those planes could actually work after being submerged. And even then i doubt their life span is more than a few months submerged.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Which the Japanese really should have put more effort into that objective. Every aa gun and fighter at the canal is one that is not fighting the Japanese.

It's a trade-off.
Yes it would have diverted US equipment away from the front, but it also required Japanese equipment to be built/ not used at the front.

I am amazed that those planes could actually work after being submerged. And even then i doubt their life span is more than a few months submerged.

What?
They weren't "submerged", they were in sealed hangars, subject to little worse conditions than any naval aircraft, and probably better - they wouldn't have been ranged on-deck, or brought out, in bad weather.

 

[fedr808]

It's a trade-off.
Yes it would have diverted US equipment away from the front, but it also required Japanese equipment to be built/ not used at the front.


What?
They weren't "submerged", they were in sealed hangars, subject to little worse conditions than any naval aircraft, and probably better - they wouldn't have been ranged on-deck, or brought out, in bad weather.

bombing the gates would have been a great idea for the japanese.

From the picture on the article you linked me to, it looked like the seaplane was fastened to the deck.

 

[Orleander]

Fedr808, the pic is a cut away example of what it looked like. The planes aren't on the outside

 

[fedr808]

Fedr808, the pic is a cut away example of what it looked like. The planes aren't on the outside

not that one, the one dwy linked to.

 

[nietzschefan]

Surprised no one brought this up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Air_Raid

On September 9, 1942, a Japanese submarine, the I-25, launched a "Glen" Yokosuka E14Y floatplane that dropped two incendiary bombs on Wheeler Ridge with the intent to start a forest fire. The mission was foiled by a group of Fire lookouts and favorable weather conditions. The attack was the first time the continental United States was bombed by an enemy aircraft.[2]

Twenty years later, the floatplane's pilot, Nobuo Fujita, was invited back to Brookings, and served as Grand Marshall for the local Azalea Festival.[1] At the festival, Fujita presented his family's 400-year old samurai sword to the city as a symbol of regret. Fujita made a number of visits to Brookings until the end of the century, serving as an "informal ambassador of peace and friendship".[2] Fujita died in 1997, the same year Brookings made him an honorary citizen.[3]

Just found this one too, I didn't even know about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Fort_Stevens

 

[Killjoy]

Their big concern was with the soloman islands, guadalcanal airfield, Australia, midway, and maybe just a little bit, the Aleutian islands. They were not concerned with the canal.

I dunno... ...these don't sound like examples of a lack of concern to me:

In January 1940 General Stone completed almost three years of duty as Commanding General, Panama Canal Department, and was succeeded by Maj. Gen. Daniel Van Voorhis, who came to his new post from command of the Fifth Corps Area. One of the first tasks the new commanding general undertook was to complete the reorganization.

The immediate impetus was a letter from the War Department instructing the commanders in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Canal Zone to submit, for the consideration of the newly created Air Defense Board, a complete study of the problem of defense against air attack, including the role of antiaircraft artillery, Aircraft Warning Service, and "the proper types, numbers and organizations and coordination of means and agencies required."
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch12.htm

Since midsummer of 1941 the harbor defense troops, the Aircraft Warn-ing Service stations, and the antiaircraft defenses of the Panama Canal had been on a continuous round-the-clock alert. Locks and other sensitive areas were under constant guard against sabotage. Transit guards were being placed on all vessels passing through the Canal. The bomber command and some of the pursuit squadrons were on a 24-hour alert. Plans had been worked out for Army support of "the various naval commanders in the Caribbean Theater." In the Fifteenth Naval District, which included the waters immediately near Panama, the Navy was conducting a continuous surface patrol supplemented, to the extent the availability of planes permitted, by an air patrol.55 These measures were fully reported by General Andrews to the War Department in response to a warning sent to the commanding generals on the west coast and in the Philippines, Hawaii, and Panama on 27 November.
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch13.htm

They would think it impossible for any fleet to hit the canal with a carrier force impossible.

I don't think that was the case, especially after the Pearl Harbor attack.

The only problem when you think of it, is that it is a one or maybe two strike deal. After the first strike the Americans would reinforce it.

Which the Japanese really should have put more effort into that objective. Every aa gun and fighter at the canal is one that is not fighting the Japanese.

Considering American production capacity, I don't think the amount of material thus diveerted would have made that big a difference.

 

[Killjoy]

Surprised no one brought this up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Air_Raid

Just found this one too, I didn't even know about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Fort_Stevens

Don't forget Operation K !

Operation K was a Japanese naval operation in World War II, intended as a reconnaissance of Pearl Harbor and disruption of repair and salvage operations following the surprise attack on December 7, 1941. It culminated on March 4, 1942, with an unsuccessful attack carried out by two Kawanishi H8K "Emily" flying boats. This was the longest distance ever undertaken by a two-plane bombing mission, and the longest bombing sortie ever planned without fighter escort.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_K

 

[fedr808]

I dunno... ...these don't sound like examples of a lack of concern to me:

In January 1940 General Stone completed almost three years of duty as Commanding General, Panama Canal Department, and was succeeded by Maj. Gen. Daniel Van Voorhis, who came to his new post from command of the Fifth Corps Area. One of the first tasks the new commanding general undertook was to complete the reorganization.

The immediate impetus was a letter from the War Department instructing the commanders in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and the Canal Zone to submit, for the consideration of the newly created Air Defense Board, a complete study of the problem of defense against air attack, including the role of antiaircraft artillery, Aircraft Warning Service, and "the proper types, numbers and organizations and coordination of means and agencies required."
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch12.htm

Since midsummer of 1941 the harbor defense troops, the Aircraft Warn-ing Service stations, and the antiaircraft defenses of the Panama Canal had been on a continuous round-the-clock alert. Locks and other sensitive areas were under constant guard against sabotage. Transit guards were being placed on all vessels passing through the Canal. The bomber command and some of the pursuit squadrons were on a 24-hour alert. Plans had been worked out for Army support of "the various naval commanders in the Caribbean Theater." In the Fifteenth Naval District, which included the waters immediately near Panama, the Navy was conducting a continuous surface patrol supplemented, to the extent the availability of planes permitted, by an air patrol.55 These measures were fully reported by General Andrews to the War Department in response to a warning sent to the commanding generals on the west coast and in the Philippines, Hawaii, and Panama on 27 November.
http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/Guard-US/ch13.htm



I don't think that was the case, especially after the Pearl Harbor attack.



Considering American production capacity, I don't think the amount of material thus diveerted would have made that big a difference.

The Japanese really cared very little for attacking the US. What they really wanted were Their big concern was with the soloman islands, guadalcanal airfield, Australia.

The reason they went to attack midway was that they saw it as a good way to start an attack on hawaii. But they knew that they had absolutely zero chance of succesfully invading (and i emphasize invading there) the US. But attacking midway would be a great way to cripple the US ability to reinforce Australia. The aleution islands were merely a feint by the Japanese.

The Japanese really wanted Australia, Guinea, etc...

Keep in mind that they did not want a war with the US if they couldve avoided it. If they felt the US would not get involved if the Japanese attacked those islands, China, and Korea they would not have attacked Pearl harbor.

But since they knew the US would get involved they figured that they should make a surprise attack and cripple as much as they possibly could.

The Japanese saw Pearl Harbor as a good way to keep the US navy from being a threat for what they thought would be at least a year. What they did not expect was the fact that the US could replace the lost ships within around 6 months maybe a little more. But to pay them their due, the US fleet didnt start becoming truly effective until maybe 3 months after that because there is that lag period because the pilots and crewmen need to gain experiance.

The Japanese would have seen the destruction of the locks as another significant way to keep the navy at lower effectiveness for a long period of time. Which is actually pretty surprising they didnt use more resources in that attack.

The problem is that the Japanese could not replace good fighter pilots.

 

[Killjoy]

`
Ach !

I thought you were making the case that the US was not concerned with a Japanese attack on the canal.

 

[fedr808]

`
Ach !

I thought you were making the case that the US was not concerned with a Japanese attack on the canal.

Of course they were concerned with a Japanese attack, it's just that they were more concerned on the Australian region.