Yet more questions about light

Once again with fields the metaphor of a substance is invoked. And a rather ghostly substance at that! Of an ethereal incorporeal quintessence made of forces (spooky actions at a distance) and mental mathematical values that spreads out everywhere and interpenetrates everything.

There has been a move on so I will add here.

Like colour vision, these things are well understood and one can only explain a thing or a concept in terms of something else that you understand. At some point that will stop.

Mathematics does not interpret anything, the scientists do that, the maths formalize the process and give predictions and results.
 
Curiously, string theory posits a new metaphor other than a particle or a field. They are tiny strings whose vibrations determine the nature of various particles. These strings are truly tiny, many billions of times smaller than an individual proton within an atomic nucleus. There is no substance posited in string theory. The strings themselves are essentially irreducible and made of nothing! There IS complex mathematics involved in string theory that makes it an elegant working model for physical reality. But while it is mathematically calculable, and promises an explanation for gravity in a unified theory, its predictive abilities have so far been highly limited. Until 1996 that is:

https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/questions/superstring.html

"As a "unified" theory, string theory attempts to explain all four forces observed in nature. And indeed, one of the solutions of the string equations is a force that looks like gravity. It is a testimony to the power and the beauty of string theory that physicists would rather give up the very notion of space and time-- and admit a 10-dimension world--than question the path on which the quest for a unified theory has led them.

String theory could successfully account for gravity and predict super-symmetric particles. But until a couple of years ago it had little connection with puzzles in physics. There were no results or concrete predictions to show off. It could have been nothing more than a beautiful mathematical construction.

Things changed in 1996. Andrew Strominger, then at the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, and Cumrun Vafa from Harvard University, used string theory to "construct" a certain type of black hole, much the same way one can "construct" a hydrogen atom by jotting down the equations, derived from quantum mechanics, that describe an electron bound to a proton.

Strominger and Vafa confirmed a result derived by Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking back in the late 1970's. Bekenstein and Hawking found that the amount of disorder (or "entropy") in a special kind of black hole was very large. This was a surprising result, since no one could understand (and nor did the computations give any insight) how an object as simple as a black hole (which can be characterized simply by its mass and its spin) could have such a large amount of disorder within it.

As a result of building this special black hole using string theory, Strominger and Vafa were able to obtain the correct value for the disorder predicted by Bekenstein and Hawking. This result electrified the physics community! For the first time, a result derived with "classical physics" could be obtained from string theory. Even though the black holes for which the result was derived have very little in common with the black holes which are believed to sit in the middle of galaxies, this new computation illustrated the connection between strings and gravity. In addition, the computation provides insight into the physical reasons for the answer.

No one knows yet if string theory is the ultimate theory--the theory of everything, if there is such a thing. But the theory's incredible elegance and potential make it a strong front-runner to further explain the inner workings of the universe well into the next century. In the words of Edward Witten, a pioneer and one of its leaders: "String theory is a part of twenty-first century physics that fell by chance into the twentieth century."
 
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Curiously, string theory posits a new metaphor other than a particle or a field. They are tiny strings whose vibrations determine the nature of various particles. There is no substance posited in string theory. The strings themselves are essentially irreducible and made of nothing! There IS complex mathematics involved in string theory that makes it an elegant working model for physical reality. But its predictive abilities have so far been highly limited. Until 1996 that is:

https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/questions/superstring.html

"As a "unified" theory, string theory attempts to explain all four forces observed in nature. And indeed, one of the solutions of the string equations is a force that looks like gravity. It is a testimony to the power and the beauty of string theory that physicists would rather give up the very notion of space and time-- and admit a 10-dimension world--than question the path on which the quest for a unified theory has led them.

String theory could successfully account for gravity and predict super-symmetric particles. But until a couple of years ago it had little connection with puzzles in physics. There were no results or concrete predictions to show off. It could have been nothing more than a beautiful mathematical construction.

Things changed in 1996. Andrew Strominger, then at the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, and Cumrun Vafa from Harvard University, used string theory to "construct" a certain type of black hole, much the same way one can "construct" a hydrogen atom by jotting down the equations, derived from quantum mechanics, that describe an electron bound to a proton.

Strominger and Vafa confirmed a result derived by Jacob Bekenstein and Stephen Hawking back in the late 1970's. Bekenstein and Hawking found that the amount of disorder (or "entropy") in a special kind of black hole was very large. This was a surprising result, since no one could understand (and nor did the computations give any insight) how an object as simple as a black hole (which can be characterized simply by its mass and its spin) could have such a large amount of disorder within it.

As a result of building this special black hole using string theory, Strominger and Vafa were able to obtain the correct value for the disorder predicted by Bekenstein and Hawking. This result electrified the physics community! For the first time, a result derived with "classical physics" could be obtained from string theory. Even though the black holes for which the result was derived have very little in common with the black holes which are believed to sit in the middle of galaxies, this new computation illustrated the connection between strings and gravity. In addition, the computation provides insight into the physical reasons for the answer.

No one knows yet if string theory is the ultimate theory--the theory of everything, if there is such a thing. But the theory's incredible elegance and potential make it a strong front-runner to further explain the inner workings of the universe well into the next century. In the words of Edward Witten, a pioneer and one of its leaders: "String theory is a part of twenty-first century physics that fell by chance into the twentieth century."
This is now nothing to do with light.
 
LOL. Every thread topic branches off into fascinating temporary tangential implications. From photons to colors to particle theory to metaphors to string theory. Everything's connected. Learn to be flexible.
 
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If light is an electromagnetic wave in the electromagnetic field, why does it not respond to magnetism? Is magnetism a form of light? And why do not virtual photons create virtual light?
 
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LOL. Every thread topic branches off into fascinating temporary tangential implications. From photons to colors to particle theory to metaphors to string theory. Everything's connected. Learn to be flexible.

I good thread stays on point, illuminates key points (see what I did there) and in the case of this thread probes some scientific questions with a good reference to follow up.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QED:_The_Strange_Theory_of_Light_and_Matter


https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/...byCEQfXkXNDfc-HqBiqjwonWYvVZTix0aAq_OEALw_wcB


A bad thread starts honestly enough perhaps asks about how life on earth got started but by post 28 is asking if Trump is an atheist.

Searching the site for interesting threads becomes pointless because they could meander into anything.

Worse, they could keep circling back to the same topics, Hameroff, consciousness, Tegmark and micro tubules.

An outsider searching for topics checking threads in the site will just go elsewhere.

Not great for your site.
 
Why is it that the posters who never post new threads are always the ones who complain the most about threads? In a forum as dead as this one it seems they would appreciate and encourage any discussion at all.
 
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Why is it that the posters who never post new threads are always the ones who complain the most about threads? In a forum as dead as this one it seems they would appreciate any discussion at all.
I don't build trains, but I'd get slightly peeved if I was on one that derailed, or started heading in a different direction than the one indicated by the ticket I bought. Just saying. ;)
 
Why is it that the posters who never post new threads are always the ones who complain the most about threads? In a forum as dead as this one it seems they would appreciate and encourage any discussion at all.
Your threads have been good of late and I have participated in most of them.
 
From the top...
If photons have no mass, how can they have energy.
The general relationship between (rest) mass m, momentum p and energy E is this:
$$E^2=(pc)^2+(mc^2)^2$$
A photon has $m=0$, but it has energy $E=pc$, related to its momentum. Also $E=hf$ for a photon, where $h$ is Planck's constant. So photons have energy related to their frequency.
Is not the energy of moving objects converted from their mass?
It is not. Kinetic energy and rest mass energy are two separate things.
How do light waves carry information to our brains about the physical world?
The waves have different frequencies and different amplitudes, so changing either of these changes the information coming in. In practice, when we look at the world we see many different frequencies of light, with different levels of brightness.
Are our eyes capable, at the quantum level, of processing the data imprinted in light into facts about our physical world?
Maybe. What do you mean by "processing the data", exactly?
Or does this all happen later on inside the brain?
Lots of additional "processing" of "data" happens in the brain.
Might differences in the lightwaves hitting our eyes be interpreted by our brains as motion, much like how a movie is but a running light projection of successive photographic frames?
As the combinations of light waves hitting out eyes vary in intensity and frequencies, our brains do interpret those changes in various ways. We infer motion from certain patterns of change, certainly.
When light hits the retina, is it wave or a particle?
Whichever you want. Or, more accurately, it depends on what aspect of the "hitting" you're trying to describe.
It seems that to see color, it would have to be a waveform since color is the wavelength of light.
Colour is, more properly, the frequency of the light. There are complications, though. The colour purple is a mixture of different frequencies (red and blue). There is no "purple frequency".
But to produce electricity (the photoelectric effect) it would have to be particles that can knock loose those electrons from the atoms of those cells.
Light does not have to eject electrons from atoms or molecules in order to have an effect on them.
I was reading online in a physics blog just now that light does not actually carry information. I find that ridiculous.
It depends what kind of light you're talking about. Light of a single, constant frequency carries no information. It can't be used to transmit any kind of message from one place to another. To transmit a message, some aspect of the light has to vary with time.
Nearly all the information we receive about our environment is transmitted thru light.
You're talking about sensory information? Most human beings rely extensively on their sense of sight, of course, but we have other senses.
A simple transparent lens is sufficient to bend the rays of light and you can project a perfect image of a scene on a white surface that shows us what information was contained in the light.
You still need a brain to make any sense of that perfect image.
In a sense all the light that is hitting our eyes is projecting a little live movie thru the lens of our eyes onto the retina. How can light do this?
There are sources of light. There are objects that reflect light. The eyes collect emitted and reflected light. The retina converts detected light into electrical signals, which the brain interprets.

How deep do you want to dig into the "how" of all this?
How can the information of everything it has reflected off of be retained in the waves dispersing in space and then reproduced as a perfect 2d image of that "remembered" scene by being magnified thru a mere transparent lens?
The information of everything it has reflected off is not retained by the light. Each detected photon only carries information about whatever it was that emitted it, most recently.
 
So however it is that our brains experience color, we can at least say that it is something we hallucinate in our own brains. We don't "see" color per se. We dream it!
I'll just record my agreement with all of the other people here who have explained to you that you're using the word "hallucinate" incorrectly.

A hallucination is a false perception - a perception of something that has no external (to the brain) physical cause.

When we see colour, there is stimulus of the visual cortex of the brain, often due to light entering the eye.
 
Even if color and other visual properties correlate to and are an accurate representation of the immediate physical environment, they are still hallucinated inside the brain.
"Hallucinated" is the wrong word. Our concious perceptions are constructed by the brain, certainly, but perceptions based on real external events (such as light hitting the retina of the eye) are not hallucinations.
For example, let's say you hook up a video camera to your TV set. The images that appear on the screen are clearly an accurate representation of the room you are capturing live on your camera.
It depends what you mean by "accurate". Your TV set only has three kinds of coloured LEDs: red, green and blue. Nevertheless, it can fool your brain into seeing 16 million+ colours.
Likewise, the colors that your brain is generating that accurately represent the immediate physical environment are still hallucinations in the sense that they are not being directly seen by your eyes.
That's not what "hallucination" means. None of our senses provide "direct" information, in the way you're using that term.
Third person descriptions of the world such as is the case with science in principle exclude any trace of a phenomenal experience.
That's a very strange thing to say. Science is in the business of examining natural phenomena and trying to explain them. It is an empirical endeavour.

What on earth do you mean by saying that science excludes any trace of a "phenomenal experience"?
All the physical objects and events it endeavors to explain are happening as if without being experienced. They are just there and posited to be real in themselves without any need for phenomenal content.
What "phenomenal content" is there, other than that which we can observe? What are you talking about?
Color itself, along with a whole host of mental properties, are ascribed to physical objects/events de facto that lack any mental properties.
No. Scientific theories of colour (as opposed merely to the properties of light) are necessarily concerned with how we perceive things, which necessitates a consideration of mental processes.
The color red for instance generated inside our brains is explained by physical events like wavelength and frequency and electrical impulses that are not and never can be red.
Red light and the human perception of red are two different things. Science has investigated both of them.
The explanation will never account for the experience of red simply because red, as an experienced sensation, is not a physical event caused by other physical events.
When you see a red rose, there is light reflecting off the rose that produces a particular sensory experience in your brain. There is an unbroken chain of causation from the photons coming off the rose to your eventual conscious perception of its red colour.

Is it your contention that there's something more to "red" than the physical processes that process the information from the light and convert it to a sensory perception? If so, how can you show that the "extra" thing - whatever you think it is - actually exists?
It's ironic because science is supposedly based on our experience of sensory derived information and perceptions but can only explain such a qualitatively experienced world with nonqualitatively-experienced conceptual abstractions like particles and waveforms and forces and fields and substances and quantities and mathematical equations.
Science posits many things that are not directly accessible to our senses. We cannot see electrons, for instance. However, we can still infer their existence by performing certain experiments and interpreting the results.

The task of science is to build explanatory theoretical models of the natural world, which allow us to predict how systems will behave in future, under various conditions.
The apple's redness is not an inherent physical property of some external object called an apple. It is a brain-generated sensation that is projected on the apple. All the other qualities derived from other senses, such as the tone of a musical instrument or the warmth of a nearby fire, are also sensations generated inside our brains. They are also not physically there independent of our brains.
Yes, sensations are generated by our brains. That's why they are called sensations: they require our senses and they require our consciousness.
And even so it would be ridiculous to claim that the particular arbitrary set of colors we have evolved to see, a very narrow part of the EM spectrum, is somehow a necessary and inherent trait of the physical universe.
We humans are an inherent trait of the physical universe. Our vision is what it is. I don't believe anybody said it was "necessary" to be that way, rather than some other way.
Is my yellow even the same as other animals' yellow?
Do you want to compare your separate subjective perceptions of the colour yellow? There's no way to do that directly.
Who could ever know that? Because color is a private subjective experience that doesn't exist out in the objective physical world.
We're all part of the objective physical world.
 
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It's not as if photons are actually carrying the quality of color somehow and merely transmitting it to the passive brain. The photons are not themselves colored no more than the objects in the physical world are colored.
It depends what you mean when you say something is "colored". We can define yellow light to be light that contains photons in a particular range of wavelengths, for example. If we do that, then yellow photons are yellow photons, objectively distinguishable from red photons or blue photons.

Even if you want to define "colored" as something like "producing a subjective sensation that people refer to using a particular colour word", then we can still say that yellow photons are yellow, because they produce the subjective sensation of yellow. There might well be several different ways to produce the same subjective visual sensation of yellow, but most of them are going to involve photons of some kind.
Prior to the sensation of color generated by the brain that distinctive experience, of the unique and vivid yellowness of the banana, does not exist.
Yes. Particular sensations don't exist until we experience them, and they go away when we're no longer experiencing them.
This is why we can never know if YOUR yellow is really the same as MY yellow. Because even though we may scientifically define yellow as a physical wavelength of light, it is still being totally generated inside the brain somehow.
No. Red photons impinging on your eye won't usually cause the sensation of yellow, for instance. The sensation of yellow is most commonly produced by light in the world that has the appropriate properties to stimulate the correct brain cells etc.
There is iow no necessary causal connection between the information contained in the photons and the qualitative experience of color.
If that were true, then it would be impossible to correlate subjective reports of colours with particular wavelengths of light. And yet, we can do that. There are repeatable correlations between the sensations people report and the objectively observable physical processes that are occurring.
This can be especially seen with people who have cortical color blindness. (see below link). Their eyes are receiving all the right photons, their retina is generating all the right electrical signals, but they still don't experience the sensation of yellow. They "see" all the same properties of light, its luminosity, its invariance, its tone, and its contrast. But not the hue of yellow. Somehow their brains do not generate the experience of yellow for them but instead some other hue like grey. It's a consistent, light stimulated, but totally different hallucination from ours.

Furthermore, in the case of synaesthesia, color is being consistently generated by entirely different external stimuli, like sound or taste or smell. How is this even possible if it is an objective physical property existing only in light?
Nobody claims that colour perception is due only to objective properties to be found in light. The clue is in the name: colour perception. You can't just ignore how the perception part is working.
One more example. Stare at a patch of color for a few moments. Then look at a white surface. The complimentary color of the original color will be seen. Red will produce green. Blue will produce yellow. We are still seeing a color based on all the right incoming physical light information, only having a totally different qualitative experience. How can color go from being a physically existing mind-independent property of light on the one hand, to a totally synaptically -generated first person-experienced hallucination on the other hand? Gotta be one or the other, right?
Again, "hallucination" is the wrong word. Scientists have a good understanding of the physical reasons for why these kinds of complementary colour perceptions happen under the right conditions. It's partly due to the colour cones in the eye becoming 'saturated' and taking some time to regain their normal resting state.
In the end perhaps it is all a matter of semantics.
Perhaps. But you should definitely stop using the word "hallucination", which is clearly an incorrect description of what is happening.
Are the molecules of a banana yellow? Are the photons reflecting off of it yellow?
The molecules in the banana reflect light that is perceived as yellow. If you want to abbreviate that description, I guess you can say the molecules are yellow, because when we give the colour of something we're almost always implying something about the way it emits or reflects light or transmits light.
Are the electrical voltages of the retina yellow?
Voltage is a measure of energy per unit charge, which has nothing to do with colour, so no.
Whence arises this subjective and qualitatively-experienced qualia called yellow?
What do you understand by the term "qualia"? Can you show that qualia exist?
 
Just what IS a photon really?
Most accurately, it is a key constituent of a theoretical model used to describe electromagnetic radiation.
I've heard many definitions, some entirely circular. For instance some say light, while describing it as being composed of photons, then say photons are basically quanta of light! That's not really a very illuminating definition.
There is a smallest unit of light possible at any given frequency. That unit is a photon. You can have 1 photon, or 7 photons or 500 billion photons, but you can't have 1.5 photons, or 6.8 photons or half a photon. The term "quanta" refers merely to this fact that that light comes in discrete units. There's nothing circular about that.

The light coming into your eye each second usually contains enormous numbers of photons. Not mere billions. More like thousands of billions of billions.
How does one define a particle that can behave in so many incredible and "unparticle-like" ways and still call it a particle?
When it behaves in particle-like ways, it makes sense to refer to it as a particle.
Are we just going to have to give up the particle model completely someday?
In a sense, we already have. Our best models of matter and light have as their fundamental constituents quantum objects that, under suitable conditions, exhibit either the properties of macroscopic particles or waves. The term that is usually used for this is wave-particle duality.
And what would that do to QFT?
QFT goes a step further, describing all particles as excitations of fields that pervade all of space.
This conception of the photon relies on a belief that light or energy is a substance that particles and waves are composed of. Which is hopelessly circular. It's like saying that matter is made up of quarks which are defined as particles composed of matter.
The concept of a photon does not posit that photons light is made of energy, or that light is a "substance". There is nothing circular here, as long as you are careful to define terms like "matter" appropriately. Depending on how you define that term, it might be true to say that matters is made of quarks (in part) or, if you define it a different way, to say that quarks are a kind of matter. But again, there's nothing circular. One thing is defined in terms of the other, and the definition only goes in one direction, not in circles.
We see the limitations of the particle model in that it always assumes a substance that the particle is made of.
No. Particle models posit fundamental entities. Molecules are made of atoms, which are made of protons, neutrons and electrons. Electrons aren't "made of" anything smaller. They are fundamental. Protons and neutrons are "made of" quarks, but quarks aren't "made of" anything smaller; they are fundamental.

So the 'assumptions' you mention - which aren't really assumptions, by the way, stop. It's not an endless regress.
But what is the empirical evidence for these substances? Nowhere.
You couldn't be more wrong.

Do you honestly think that somebody one day just said, at random, "I'm going to imagine that there are these things I'm going to call 'atoms', and I'm going to assume they are made of things I'm going to call 'protons', 'neutrons' and 'electrons'"?

That's not how science is done. For starters, protons, electrons and neutrons were all discovered, experimentally, at different times, decades apart. As theoretical elements of physical theory, they were necessitated by the results of many separate and disparate experiments.

In other words, the reason scientists believe in things like protons and electrons, these days, is precisely because of the vast body of empirical evidence for their existence.

It can only be through ignorance that you could claim that there is no empirical evidence for the existence of something like an electron. You've heard of electronics, right? What do you think is going on with that, exactly? What are electrical engineers working to control and exploit exactly? You must wonder. Or maybe you just take modern technology entirely for granted and don't think about how or why it works?
Quantum field theory seems to posit the field as the irreducible substrate of light and energy and matter.
Yes.
It's that stubborn circular duality again.
No. The clue is right there: "irreducible substrate". The regress stops right there. It goes in one direction only. There is no circularity.
Of a field being made of particles, and particles being made up a field.
It doesn't go both ways. It only goes one way. Particles are described as excitations of fields. Never the reverse. No circularity.
 
Curiously, string theory posits a new metaphor other than a particle or a field. They are tiny strings whose vibrations determine the nature of various particles. These strings are truly tiny, many billions of times smaller than an individual proton within an atomic nucleus. There is no substance posited in string theory. The strings themselves are essentially irreducible and made of nothing!
A different theory with a different irreducible substrate. Not "made of nothing". The strings are the irreducible substrate. They don't "reduce" to anything more basic. Understand? In this theory, there is nothing and there are strings. The strings aren't made of the nothing, any more than quarks are made of nothing in the Standard Model of particle physics.
 
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