Should we use data of Nazi's human experiences?

Syzygys

Syzygys

As a mother, I am telling you
Valued Senior Member
The nazis did many experiences on humans. Some were scientific, some were just plain strange and inhuman.

We have access to these data. The question arrives: should we use these or not?

Against: It was inhuman and cruel to use humans for medical research.

For: There is nothing we can do about it, we might as well use the data if it helps us.

A case in point would be the nazi study of hypotermia, where they put prisoners into freezing water until they froze. Some of them survived, some didn't. Now you can see, if we want to study the human body's survival ability in cold temperatures, we have to use either volunter humans or some other mammals, which may or may not be aviable. Also those experiences will be cruel too...
 
yes by all means.
if anything good comes out of it it should be named after the victim the nazis experimented on and the victim should be given credit for discovering it.
 
Dr. Mengele's experiments were extremely interesting. They deserve scientific recognition for the empirical data provided, with a mentioning of the "immorality".
 
If we don't use it, someone else will end up suffering at the hands of some other pyscho-chimp penny-ante dictator's "experiments" just because we chose to throw it away.
 
Syzygys said:
The nazis did many experiences on humans. Some were scientific, some were just plain strange and inhuman.

We have access to these data. The question arrives: should we use these or not?

Against: It was inhuman and cruel to use humans for medical research.

For: There is nothing we can do about it, we might as well use the data if it helps us.

A case in point would be the nazi study of hypotermia, where they put prisoners into freezing water until they froze. Some of them survived, some didn't. Now you can see, if we want to study the human body's survival ability in cold temperatures, we have to use either volunter humans or some other mammals, which may or may not be aviable. Also those experiences will be cruel too...
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unfortunately, yes.
 
Prince_James said:
Dr. Mengele's experiments were extremely interesting.
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how, in the name of god, can you say this? :confused:
have you read the atrocities this man committed?
They deserve scientific recognition for the empirical data provided, with a mentioning of the "immorality".
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no, they don't.
the victims and their families deserve the recognition and credit.
 
Syzygys said:
A case in point would be the nazi study of hypotermia, where they put prisoners into freezing water until they froze. Some of them survived, some didn't. Now you can see, if we want to study the human body's survival ability in cold temperatures, we have to use either volunter humans or some other mammals, which may or may not be aviable. Also those experiences will be cruel too...
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Well, the question itself remains largely irrelevant - we've already used this specific data you've mentioned extensively and its been used to save lives. There's no "should we?" about it - already done deal.
 
leopold99 said:
how, in the name of god, can you say this? :confused:
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Just because something is cruel or inhuman, still can be interesting...

There was a guy whose woodchopper got stuck. He STEPPED into the machine, and got the machine loose. I would like to know, what his last thought was.

You could say that it is cruel to think about it, but I think it is interesting to know when one recognizes even if just for 1 second, that his stupidity is causing his own death...
 
Leopold99:

how, in the name of god, can you say this?
have you read the atrocities this man committed?
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I don't find them particuarly disturbing, no. I've heard of worse. Moreover, just because they were "terrible" does not mean they were not interesting. They provided excellent data into hyperthermia and pressure.

no, they don't.
the victims and their families deserve the recognition and credit.
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The victims deserve no recognition whatsoever. They were victims - just that. They were cowards who didn't fight back against the Nazis.
 
Yes, definitely. Whether or not the knowledge should have gotten there is irrelevent; it is there now and we have an obligation to use it.
 
Prince_James said:
The victims deserve no recognition whatsoever. They were victims - just that. They were cowards who didn't fight back against the Nazis.
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However you want to justify the Holocaust to yourself. Whatever makes you feel good, man.

Yeah, those Jews sure deserved what they got.
Makes the pill easier to swallow, doesn't it?

Though I've always enjoyed the fascination most people have for atrocities, but at the same time are sickened by the thought that atrocities are really cool. I just think, "man, can't you come to grips with what a terrible person you are?"
 
Syzygys said:
Just because something is cruel or inhuman, still can be interesting...
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okay, i'll cede this point.
Prince_James said:
Leopold99:
I don't find them particuarly disturbing, no. I've heard of worse. Moreover, just because they were "terrible" does not mean they were not interesting. They provided excellent data into hyperthermia and pressure.
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i will agree that the data is valid, i will also agree that it should be used.

but. . .

The victims deserve no recognition whatsoever. They were victims - just that. They were cowards who didn't fight back against the Nazis.
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the victims DO deserve credit for the discovery. if it weren't for them the data would not exist.
most of the victims had no choice in the matter.
 
Roman, Leopold99:

The fact of the matter is this: The Jews never did a substantial thing to resist the Nazi slaughter. This is the single worse instance of cowardice in the history of man. According, these "victims" deserve no recognition, because they did nothing but get tortured.
 
Syzygys said:
The nazis did many experiences on humans. Some were scientific, some were just plain strange and inhuman.

We have access to these data. The question arrives: should we use these or not?

Against: It was inhuman and cruel to use humans for medical research.

For: There is nothing we can do about it, we might as well use the data if it helps us.

A case in point would be the nazi study of hypotermia, where they put prisoners into freezing water until they froze. Some of them survived, some didn't. Now you can see, if we want to study the human body's survival ability in cold temperatures, we have to use either volunter humans or some other mammals, which may or may not be aviable. Also those experiences will be cruel too...
Click to expand...


we are using them already

transplant surgery came about due to Nazi experimentation

THIS LINK DISCUSSES THIS EXACT DILEMMA- NOTE IT IS A JEWISH SITE


http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html

"The Ethics Of Using Medical Data From Nazi Experiments
Baruch C. Cohen1

1. INTRODUCTION

Following World War II, leading Nazi doctors were brought to justice before the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg. Twenty doctors were charged with War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. The Nuremberg trial of the doctors revealed evidence of sadistic human experiments conducted at the Dachau, Auschwitz, Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen concentration camps.

Since the Nuremberg trials, our society has had to confront the reality that the Nazi doctors were guilty of premeditated murder masqueraded as research. Professional modern medicine has had little difficulty condemning the Nazi doctors as evil men. But what is being said of the continued use of the Nazi doctors' medical research? Many scholars are now discovering in reputable medical literature multiple references to Nazi experiments, or republished works of former SS doctors. These studies and references frequently bear no disclaimer as to how the data was obtained. In recent years several scientists who have sought to use the Nazi research have attracted and stirred widespread soul-searching about the social responsibility and potential abuses of science.........................."

a link worth reading relevant to this topic


Did you know cleopatra performed embeyo experiments on her handmaidens??? details in this link

finally the link (Jewish website) concludes this:

"CONCLUSION

a. PROPOSED GUIDELINES IN USING THE NAZI DATA

Absolute censorship of the Nazi data does not seem proper, especially when the secrets of saving lives may lie solely in its contents. Society must decide on its use by correctly understanding the exact benefits to be gained. When the value of the Nazi data is of great value to humanity, then the morally appropriate policy would be to utilize the data, while explicitly condemning the atrocities. But the data should not be used just with a single disclaimer. To further justify its use, the scientific validity of the experiment must be clear; there must be no other alternative source from which to gain that information, and the capacity to save lives must be evident.

Once a decision to use the data has been made, experts suggest that it must not be included as ordinary scientific research, just to be cited and placed in a medical journal. I agree with author Robert J. Lifton who suggested that citation of the data must contain a thorough expose' of exactly what tortures and atrocities were committed for that experiment. Citations of the Nazi data must be accompanied with the author's condemnation of the data as a lesson in horror and as a moral aberration in medical science. The author who chooses to use the Nazi data must be prepared to expose the Nazi doctors' immoral experiments as medical evil, never to be repeated. "
 
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Prince_James said:
Roman, Leopold99:

The fact of the matter is this: The Jews never did a substantial thing to resist the Nazi slaughter. This is the single worse instance of cowardice in the history of man. According, these "victims" deserve no recognition, because they did nothing but get tortured.
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you've said this before PJ and I pasted you numerous links showing what they did by the hundreds, so your repetiton of this argument is rather erm..........flawed and biased
 
I dont know if its already been said, but I think if the data can be used for good purposes i.e. save lives, it could be considered a waste and thus more unethical not to put it to use. Im sure if something good could come out of their suffering, the poor bastids in question would have slightly favoured being of some service to science over merely being a torturers source of pleasure.
 
TheoryOfRelativity:

The Warsaw Ghetto did have some resistance - and for that, I salute them. There were also minor amounts of resistance elsewhere. Isolated and insubstantial. Out of 6 million people, you'd expect more bravery. The fact that they didn't show even an ounce in the majority, is a testament to their moral depravity as a people in that capacity.
 
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