James R "Kaffir" is not an insult.

[Michael]

The Qur'an is very clear about it's denigration of Kaffir. For Christ's sake, the whole reason in pretending the Qur'an is a "Perfect" Book is to contrast it with and denigrate the "flawed" Kaffir's belief system (who by definition can't have a Perfect Book as that would remove the need FOR a Perfect book and thus a need for a protagonist named Mohammad).


Simply put, there is no need for bigoted terms like Kaffir. I get by perfectly fine in life without ever using, thinking or coming across terms like Goy, Heretic, Infidel or Kaffir. In superstitious systems (where there are multiple Gods and Goddesses) such religious bigotry becomes moot.


Anyway, it's a matter of thinking correctly - not that there's anything you could say to convince the Suicide Bomber. They have way too much invested in being a Suicide Bomber. Which, as SAM pointed out, is why they similarly have no faith in God.

 

[Bells]

Nope. But if you pretend there's one hard enough, I bet you could convince yourself there was.

We don't need to convince ourselves Geoff.

I agree utterly: kaffir is a pejorative, in modern and ancient usage. That there's any kind of debate about it is pretty ridiculous, if you must use that word.

So why are we here?

Well, it is not I that made it so, or used it so. I think you're confused about that. Let me direct you to a webpage. Let me know if you (ever) read it. To make it easier, I've bolded a salient part.

How has Chi discriminated against you by saying you are a Kaffir on an internet forum? How did you feel discriminated against by being told that you re a not a Muslim?

Do you understand now?

You have gone from being offended because you felt it meant 'dirty kaffir' and now you are quoting a passage on Wiki that says it can be deemed discriminatory...

So I'd like to know, how did you feel discriminated against by being called a 'non-Muslim' by every sense and definition of the word?

Double crazy, eh? A language that permits a non-pejorative, obviating the need to use "kaffir" or the like. The language of the forum. And I ask him to use it! I must have lost my mind.

And yet, when Gustav called you a kaffir, you took no offense to it. Ah that's right, he isn't a devout Muslim.

So did you feel that Chi hissed it at you as he typed it on the screen?

Was it the tone of his font?

Bonne chance.

I feel that the manner in which you typed that and the italics you chose to use, even when I stated that your use of French on this board could be deemed offensive was highly provocative and insulting. Do it again and I will report you and expect the same standards to apply to you.

A dark day indeed.

Oh don't worry. Your new standard will also apply to you as well.

Ah - because I was describing the term, and not using it as a serious insult? It's a possibility. Check it out.

How did he use it as a serious insult?

Was it his font?

YOU ARE A KAFFIR if its interpretation were to be viewed at any angle. You were not being discriminated against at any time. Your rights as a poster on this forum were fully protected and you had described yourself as a "dirty Kaffir" in the past.

So how is it a serious insult if you are told you are a non-Muslim? How is it a "serious insult" if he is refering to you by a term you have used to describe yourself in the past?

You even got insulted because you seemed to attribute 'Muslim devil woman' to yourself.

A "serious insult".. Listen to yourself!

Do you read what you type? Think what you type?

Or even a bunch of Islamic scholars, if we're to accept that Wiki article. Possibly they're also French speaking English born Canadians.

They said it could be deemed discriminatory.

You complained because you felt he was calling you a "dirty kaffir" or as you described yourself long ago, a "filthy kaffir", which not once did he refer to you as such.

Did you felt discriminated against by being told that you are NOT a Muslim? Have you converted in the last week and thus felt discriminated against by being viewed as being Catholic?

Did he deny you your rights on this forum by saying you are a Kaffir?

If you felt it was so discriminatory when called a Kaffir, why did you not find it offensive when called by the same term by Gustav? If you find the term to be so insulting and offensive.. no, sorry.. if you feel the term amounts to a "serious insult", it does not behoove you to then go on and joke with another who called you a 'kaffir'. It is obviously not that much of a "serious insult", is it?

But I forget my place. We are supposed to ignore your discrimination against Muslims on this forum, as you stated yourself, it's only offensive if a "devout Muslim" says you are a kaffir. Apparently you feel no serious insult if a non Muslim refers to you as a Kaffir.

Well, I bet there's a lot of other reasons the complaint floored you, actually. Kudos on your extensive research, however.

Was the best I could do for a fellow "filthy kaffir". After all, as you put it yourself back in 2006:

We good, honest, filthy, naij kaffir folk​

And since you are only offended if called a Kaffir by Muslims on this forum, you should feel no offense if I call you by what you have called yourself in the past, correct?

You got it. Your interpretive razor cuts as fine as ever.

I salute you.

Oh, do not worry Geoff. We are here, on standby, to smite any Muslim who dares call you a non-Muslim again.

 

[Sock puppet path]

We don't need to convince ourselves Geoff.


So why are we here?


How has Chi discriminated against you by saying you are a Kaffir on an internet forum? How did you feel discriminated against by being told that you re a not a Muslim?

Do you understand now?

You have gone from being offended because you felt it meant 'dirty kaffir' and now you are quoting a passage on Wiki that says it can be deemed discriminatory...

So I'd like to know, how did you feel discriminated against by being called a 'non-Muslim' by every sense and definition of the word?


And yet, when Gustav called you a kaffir, you took no offense to it. Ah that's right, he isn't a devout Muslim.

So did you feel that Chi hissed it at you as he typed it on the screen?

Was it the tone of his font?



I feel that the manner in which you typed that and the italics you chose to use, even when I stated that your use of French on this board could be deemed offensive was highly provocative and insulting. Do it again and I will report you and expect the same standards to apply to you.


Oh don't worry. Your new standard will also apply to you as well.


How did he use it as a serious insult?

Was it his font?

YOU ARE A KAFFIR if its interpretation were to be viewed at any angle. You were not being discriminated against at any time. Your rights as a poster on this forum were fully protected and you had described yourself as a "dirty Kaffir" in the past.

So how is it a serious insult if you are told you are a non-Muslim? How is it a "serious insult" if he is refering to you by a term you have used to describe yourself in the past?

You even got insulted because you seemed to attribute 'Muslim devil woman' to yourself.

A "serious insult".. Listen to yourself!

Do you read what you type? Think what you type?


They said it could be deemed discriminatory.

You complained because you felt he was calling you a "dirty kaffir" or as you described yourself long ago, a "filthy kaffir", which not once did he refer to you as such.

Did you felt discriminated against by being told that you are NOT a Muslim? Have you converted in the last week and thus felt discriminated against by being viewed as being Catholic?

Did he deny you your rights on this forum by saying you are a Kaffir?

If you felt it was so discriminatory when called a Kaffir, why did you not find it offensive when called by the same term by Gustav? If you find the term to be so insulting and offensive.. no, sorry.. if you feel the term amounts to a "serious insult", it does not behoove you to then go on and joke with another who called you a 'kaffir'. It is obviously not that much of a "serious insult", is it?

But I forget my place. We are supposed to ignore your discrimination against Muslims on this forum, as you stated yourself, it's only offensive if a "devout Muslim" says you are a kaffir. Apparently you feel no serious insult if a non Muslim refers to you as a Kaffir.


Was the best I could do for a fellow "filthy kaffir". After all, as you put it yourself back in 2006:

We good, honest, filthy, naij kaffir folk​

And since you are only offended if called a Kaffir by Muslims on this forum, you should feel no offense if I call you by what you have called yourself in the past, correct?


Oh, do not worry Geoff. We are here, on standby, to smite any Muslim who dares call you a non-Muslim again.

Refer to my post

 

[Bells]

Refer to my post

I think I can count on one hand the amount of times that Chi has called another member on this site a kaffir. And each time, he was clear to explain how the term was meant - ie. non-Muslim. Doing a seach of the word, Chi mentions it 18 times in his posts, most of the time he was responding to others using the word by quoting them.


Geoff on the other hand has used it and referred to himself and others by that term many more times. Mention of the word in his posts amount to 36 times and most of the time, he (Geoff) is the one using it. Many times he has used it to try to goad Muslims on this site, most of whom have either ignored him or gone on to explain the actual meaning of the word - ie - non-Muslim.


As Geoff pointed out clearly, it is only insulting if it is used by a devout Muslim, which is what he views Chi as being. That Geoff has used the term more than Chi has, has called himself a "filthy Kaffir" more than Chi has and has goaded Muslims with the term is really nothing that should be considered? All that matters is that a devout Muslim called him a Kaffir, even though that individual was explicitly clear to explain why that term was used (ie Arabic word to describe a non-Muslim) each time.


I'll put it this way Sock, Geoff is so sensitive that he became offended when I used the term 'evil Muslim devil woman', because he felt I was insulting him... Because you know, Geoff is now apparently a woman....

 

[S.A.M.]

What I find most ironic is that we have the posters who initiate or participate routinely in discussions on Islam, take very firm anti-Islam or anti-Muslim stands and object to being defined as people who do so - are in fact, offended by it. Apparently it is a shameful offensive thing for them to have opinions contrary to Muslims, because Muslims think so! Moreover, they are shocked, shocked, I tell you, that Muslims have a word for people who reject Islam. Ack, what next? A word for people who reject people who reject Islam? Oh my Gowd, how offensive! And these are the same people who openly call other peoples by retarded names because of their beliefs!



Perhaps a better word than kafir would be...morons?

 

[Trippy]

See Table 1

What we've got here is clearly a case of Type C or D (or maybe B or D, depending).

 

[fedr808]

What I find most ironic is that we have the posters who initiate or participate routinely in discussions on Islam, take very firm anti-Islam or anti-Muslim stands and object to being defined as people who do so - are in fact, offended by it. Apparently it is a shameful offensive thing for them to have opinions contrary to Muslims, because Muslims think so! Moreover, they are shocked, shocked, I tell you, that Muslims have a word for people who reject Islam. Ack, what next? A word for people who reject people who reject Islam? Oh my Gowd, how offensive! And these are the same people who openly call other peoples by retarded names because of their beliefs!



Perhaps a better word than kafir would be...morons?

I prefer Goyem

 

[GeoffP]

Sorry: what??

We don't need to convince ourselves Geoff.

"We" don't? Who is "us"?

So why are we here?

Wait: you agree that - allow me to clarify - the use of "kaffir" to describe Muslims is a pejorative? Well, ok then.

How has Chi discriminated against you by saying you are a Kaffir on an internet forum? How did you feel discriminated against by being told that you re a not a Muslim?

Bells, there are several other terms that could have been used: "non-Muslim" chief among them. 'Kaffir' (and its numerous nefarious spellings) is an offensive term. I note from below that you did in fact read the wiki article. Surely this must have seemed abundantly clear therein?

You have gone from being offended because you felt it meant 'dirty kaffir' and now you are quoting a passage on Wiki that says it can be deemed discriminatory...

So I'd like to know, how did you feel discriminated against by being called a 'non-Muslim' by every sense and definition of the word?

...I'm not sure what your point is here, or how that fits into a counter. Clearly - from the wiki page - it's discriminatory. Not outrageously discriminatory, but not exactly nice either.

And yet, when Gustav called you a kaffir, you took no offense to it. Ah that's right, he isn't a devout Muslim.

Gustav is a clown, not an extremist like Chi. You seem much more worried about my offense - and I thank your pains to protect my sensibilities - than his general philosophy.

So did you feel that Chi hissed it at you as he typed it on the screen?

Sorry: "Hissed"?

I feel that the manner in which you typed that and the italics you chose to use, even when I stated that your use of French on this board could be deemed offensive was highly provocative and insulting. Do it again and I will report you and expect the same standards to apply to you.

Mais pourquoi? Je ne comprehends pas ta point ici.

YOU ARE A KAFFIR if its interpretation were to be viewed at any angle. You were not being discriminated against at any time. Your rights as a poster on this forum were fully protected and you had described yourself as a "dirty Kaffir" in the past.

Yes...sarcastically, Bells. There is something of a difference, you know. This is sort of an odd tack, don't you think? By the by: your capitalized text above - seriously, is this really necessary?

You even got insulted because you seemed to attribute 'Muslim devil woman' to yourself.

?? Sorry: where exactly was that again?

A "serious insult".. Listen to yourself!

Do you read what you type? Think what you type?

I know that I think I read what I type. :shrug: Or I think I do.

They [Islamic authorities attributed on the wiki page I cited] said it could be deemed discriminatory.

Yes: which disagrees with my position how exactly?

You complained because you felt he was calling you a "dirty kaffir" or as you described yourself long ago, a "filthy kaffir", which not once did he refer to you as such.

He's referred to Westerners in general as "filthy", which is on the record, and to me and others as "kaffir". Seems reasonable enough to put them together; you are familiar with the process of rhetoric, are you not? Is this related to the OP?

Did he deny you your rights on this forum by saying you are a Kaffir?

Well, it's an insulting word, Bells. I'm sure you'd be offended by the use of a variety of words. It isn't necessary and shouldn't be tolerated.

But I forget my place. We are supposed to ignore your discrimination against Muslims on this forum, as you stated yourself, it's only offensive if a "devout Muslim" says you are a kaffir. Apparently you feel no serious insult if a non Muslim refers to you as a Kaffir.

Sorry, but that's good for a gripe. I explained my distinction. This is now trolling, and slander.

Was the best I could do for a fellow "filthy kaffir". After all, as you put it yourself back in 2006:

We good, honest, filthy, naij kaffir folk​

And since you are only offended if called a Kaffir by Muslims on this forum, you should feel no offense if I call you by what you have called yourself in the past, correct?

Sort of depends on intent, Bells. I think as a lawyer you probably have had exposure to this concept: Chi means what he says from a religious sense. Gustav isn't an extremist, and so his usage is i) meant to be comical or absurd, and ii) kind of pointless. It's more that members of a group using a word in a discriminatory manner are doing so.

Oh, do not worry Geoff. We are here, on standby, to smite any Muslim who dares call you a non-Muslim again.

Interesting. Who is "we", again?

 

[S.A.M.]

I prefer Goyem

Ack, more furrin languages coming down on the provincial head. Where is the whiteout?

Out of interest is there a word for people who are anti-Jew? Is it considered a pejorative?

 

[GeoffP]

I think I can count on one hand the amount of times that Chi has called another member on this site a kaffir. And each time, he was clear to explain how the term was meant - ie. non-Muslim. Doing a seach of the word, Chi mentions it 18 times in his posts, most of the time he was responding to others using the word by quoting them.

Well, first, your link doesn't work, and second: actually, in his OP, he attacked both James and I as "kaffir", and not as a quote:

You are a Kaffir too James and you have admitted you are a "non believer" Iam allowed to call you and Geoff (Who the infraction/warning was about just now) a Kaffir you have both admitted to being Kaffir.

...

Don't tell me what words I can and cannot use you are both Kaffir and have admitted to being Atheists.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2700447&postcount=1

Many times he has used it to try to goad Muslims on this site, most of whom have either ignored him or gone on to explain the actual meaning of the word - ie - non-Muslim.

Please demonstrate how you know this is "goading". Define "goading", even. I take a certain degree of outrage about it, perhaps, because it's a pejorative, as Muslim scholars also apparently believe.

As Geoff pointed out clearly, it is only insulting if it is used by a devout Muslim, which is what he views Chi as being.

"Conservative" would be a better fit, although "devout" would fit into aspects of this group. You seem to be seizing on a detail for the entirety of your argument.

I'll put it this way Sock, Geoff is so sensitive that he became offended when I used the term 'evil Muslim devil woman', because he felt I was insulting him...

This is also a little nonsensical.

What I find most ironic is that we have the posters who initiate or participate routinely in discussions on Islam, take very firm anti-Islam or anti-Muslim stands and object to being defined as people who do so - are in fact, offended by it.

Sorry - are we still discussing me here? Where have I taken an anti-Muslim or anti-Islam stand? My central objective is pretty clear, and not exactly unsupportable. I've given it dozens of times.

The rest was a fairly strong digression from anything approaching a logical perspective, IMHO, and so was passed by.

Perhaps a better word than kafir would be...morons?

So...now non-Muslims are stupid. I see.

 

[GeoffP]

Ack, more furrin languages coming down on the provincial head. Where is the whiteout?

Out of interest is there a word for people who are anti-Jew? Is it considered a pejorative?

So, from the more generous version of the original definition, rejection of a belief = antipathy towards that belief? How does that follow?

 

[S.A.M.]

So...now non-Muslims are stupid. I see.

Alien abduction, anyone?

So, from the more generous version of the original definition, rejection of a belief = antipathy towards that belief? How does that follow?

Would you like to read through your arguments on why you oppose a mosque two blocks from ground zero?

Btw, I just recalled the word for those who are anti-Jew, its antisemitism. Would you say that antisemitism is a pejorative because Jews take a dim view of people who hate their beliefs?

 

[GeoffP]

Alien abduction, anyone?

Sam, it's you that makes these specious associations: the kind of which Bells would seemingly jump on. Look, I get it. I think we all get it: you hate critics of anything remotely connected with your religion, including its insertion into politics, legality and humanitarian spheres of interest, which is basically what the criticism is all about. (No one would be particularly concerned if the huddud laws were aimed at toasters, say; and by this, I do not mean a pejorative for Cylons, in case Bells is reading this post.) But I think you have to admit there is room for criticism. If some people have gone overboard with this criticism, then pursue that. I'm not one of those people. I'm pretty fair about my criticisms, if stringent, and I try - oh, how I try - to give you a fair shake. There are problems with every philosophy. How about just copping to a few and seeing if we can generate a solution? Or at least an answer.

 

[quinnsong]

Ack, more furrin languages coming down on the provincial head. Where is the whiteout?

Out of interest is there a word for people who are anti-Jew? Is it considered a pejorative?

Why surrin de is, de have perjorawhatumacallits for all us here people in all this here big world!

 

[S.A.M.]

specious associations

You mean like saying its okay to be a non-Muslim in English, but not in Arabic? Is that the kind of "Well Thought Out Criticism" you mean to stand by?

 

[GeoffP]

Would you like to read through your arguments on why you oppose a mosque two blocks from ground zero?

If you like, I suppose. I don't see how that will help; and it should probably be on the original thread. Mind, this is a longer issue than just one word. Perhaps we should finish the above? So again: how does rejection of a belief system necessarily coincide with antipathy towards that system? If I refuse to follow Islam, does that mean I hate it? If I refuse to follow Judaism or Jainism, does that mean I hate them? Evangelism? Hinduism? (Yes: I realize the latter is actually considerably more complex than a single word.)

Btw, I just recalled the word for those who are anti-Jew, its antisemitism.

Good!

Would you say that antisemitism is a pejorative because Jews take a dim view of people who hate their beliefs?

How does that parallel to our situation? Are you saying that "kaffir" hate Islamic beliefs? I don't think that's so; or, to say the least, not uniformly.

 

[GeoffP]

You mean like saying its okay to be a non-Muslim in English, but not in Arabic? Is that the kind of "Well Thought Out Criticism" you mean to stand by?

Sort of difficult to give a well thought out criticism to a tiny fragment of a post: but, you've equivocated "kaffir" to "morons", now. I suppose it was probably a fit of pique, but on that basis it's a little specious, and more so if you really meant it.

Look, I think this line is getting us nowhere. Perhaps we should reconsolidate and calm down.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sort of difficult to give a well thought out criticism to a tiny fragment of a post: but, you've equivocated "kaffir" to "morons", now. I suppose it was probably a fit of pique, but on that basis it's a little specious, and more so if you really meant it.

Look, I think this line is getting us nowhere. Perhaps we should reconsolidate and calm down.

Actually I did not equivocate kafir/faffir/qakkkir with moron because to equivocate means to mislead and not what you apparently think it means


e·quiv·o·cate (-kwv-kt)
intr.v. e·quiv·o·cat·ed, e·quiv·o·cat·ing, e·quiv·o·cates
1. To use equivocal language intentionally.
2. To avoid making an explicit statement.

equivocate
verb be evasive, evade, dodge, parry, fence, hedge, shuffle, fudge, flannel (Brit. informal), sidestep, waffle (informal, chiefly Brit.), quibble, prevaricate, pussyfoot (informal), avoid the issue, beat about the bush (informal), tergiversate He is equivocating a lot about what is going to happen at the next election.

If you are going to insist that people only use English with you, the least you can do is attempt to be fluent in it.

What I did was substitute moron for those kafirs who object to being called kafirs in Arabic because it offends them to be defined in a foreign language even when it perfectly represents their position

 

[GeoffP]

Actually I did not equivocate kafir/faffir/qakkkir with moron because to equivocate means to mislead and not what you apparently think it means

Well, forgive me, but your other choice was...oh, I see you've done that:

What I did was substitute moron for those kafirs who object to being called kafirs in Arabic because it offends them to be defined in a foreign language even when it perfectly represents their position

Well, this is the insulting part. You didn't specify any of the bolded language. Clarity, Sam.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well, forgive me, but your other choice was...oh, I see you've done that:



Well, this is the insulting part. You didn't specify any of the bolded language. Clarity, Sam.

You have to read ALL the words Geoff. It helps in comprehending the subject matter.

Let me bold the most relevant ones since I know how difficult it is for you to identify the words that make up the argument

What I find most ironic is that we have the posters who initiate or participate routinely in discussions on Islam, take very firm anti-Islam or anti-Muslim stands and object to being defined as people who do so - are in fact, offended by it. Apparently it is a shameful offensive thing for them to have opinions contrary to Muslims, because Muslims think so! Moreover, they are shocked, shocked, I tell you, that Muslims have a word for people who reject Islam. Ack, what next? A word for people who reject people who reject Islam? Oh my Gowd, how offensive! And these are the same people who openly call other peoples by retarded names because of their beliefs!



Perhaps a better word than kafir would be...morons?