How do Fish breath oxygen ?
Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?
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How do Fish breath oxygen ?
Write4U
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Regardless where the oxygen comes from, it has intrinsic relational value to all other elements or molecules.
If Oxygen in any state had no value it would not be reactive and useless as a source of energy.
The fact that Hydrogen and Oxygen have measurable properties allows for the analysis of their mathematical interaction (reaction) with other compounds or organisms which have their own their relational values.
All physical objects or forces have inherent values. It is what makes all physical interactions mathematically measurable in the first place.
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Write4U is not agreeing with you river. If he is then let him say so.
Oxygen does not exist as an atomic form, due to its reactivity properties.
Lesson over river, but like your ignorance with the Moon, I doubt that you will, or can ever learn anything.
They pass water over their gills. O2 (not atomic oxygen) is dissolved in water.
If they (or you) tried to breathe monatomic oxygen they'd be dead in minutes.
Nope.
Write4U can speak for himself .
So there is excess oxygen in water .
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
The periodic Table is a mathematical construct based on the mathematical properties of the constituent parts.
Of the values inherent in basic elements of this universe.
ANY relational value is mathematical in essence.
All sets (patterns) of relational values are mathematical in essence.
The whole universe consists of sets of relational values and is therefore mathematical in essence.
A dimensionless point has an abstract mathematical value in relation to its spacetime coordinate.
river, do you know who used to deal with physical properties of unknown values? Alchemists.
For a thousand years alchemists tried to transform ordinary metals into gold. They were trying to make gold without any knowledge of the enormous values required for the creation of gold. Such values are only present during explosion of super massive stars.
And you wish to maintain the perspective that physical objects and actions can measured or predicted without the application of relational mathematical values ?
Today we have actually been able to make minuscule amounts of gold in a laboratory by the application of the required mathematical values as found in the interior of exploding massive stars.
Is that sufficiently persuasive?
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In some water there is dissolved O2 (an oxygen compound, NOT elemental oxygen) in water. No water is produced by the excess oxygen. Water does not break down into oxygen in any place fish swim.
So then there is excess oxygen . In the Place where all Fish swim . Oceans , Rivers , Lakes , Streams etc .
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
In this case I'll defer to billvon.
My interest is not focused on the breathing habits of fish, other than as part of the remarkable adaptive abilities of living organisms to hostile environments occurring in many places on earth.
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Where is it then ? Mathematics , continue ....
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
I've made my position as clear as I can, complete with proof of the necessity of mathematical values in the emergence of regular patterns from chaos and the evolutionary self-ordering universal processes from simple patterns to complex forms and physical expressions.
I'ts all mathematical in essence, abstractly and physically.
I'ts all mathematical in essence, abstractly and physically.
And I've made myself clear . The Physical , periodic table , is because of the elements themselves . Mathematics is a consequence of the Physical Objects .
Yes. But that's not what you were talking about.
To review:
Paddo: "Atomic Oxygen does not exist in a free state as my links support."
River: "Molecular Oxygen in air . Now Oxygen gets into water as a free atom ."
That is incorrect. Oxygen does not get into water as a free atom.
Explain then what form of oxygen gets into the water , That Fish can breath .
Oxygen in the air is MOLECULAR. Two atoms in a molecule.
Oxygen dissolved in the water id MOLECULAR. Two atoms in a molecule.
No "free atoms."
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Actually I am exploring Max Tegmark's proposition that consciousness itself is an emergent quality based on mathematical information sharing principles. Types and Forms of computing and if these computations can be symbolized with mathematics and used for practical application.
The current mantra that "the neural network causes consciousness " is not nearly close enough for me.
IMO, Tegmark argues that everything in this universe has an inherent relational value and that these values can be measured for mathematical consistency and analyzed for a deeper understanding and utilized for possible medical purposes and application for such new technologies like AI and robotics in general.
Humans are made from physical stuff. Physical stuff has measurable relational values. The human brain and neural network is made from physical stuff, measurable quantitative and qualitative values.
It is now proposed that AI is already being used to augment human thought in many constructive mathematically creative algorithms. Unlike the human brain the AI never gets tired and is able to process enormous amounts of data in a very short time with exquisite accuracy. It's learning capability is technically unlimited and logic gateways are known value control mechanisms, such as found in humans as Interoception, the subconscious control mechanism that regulates homeostasis in all biological organisms.
Interoception is not affected by anesthetics which renders the conscious mind completely oblivious to external stimulation. A person may be in a coma for months oblivious to the world, yet the Interoceptive region of the brain keeps the body's homeostatic processess in perfect balance, and speaks for the computational abilities that are required in maintaining electrochemical homeostatic balance in a living organism as large as a person.
The implications are really interesting.
The thing is, rather than asking the "hard question" of consciousness for which we cannot even offer a definition, let alone a solution to a direction in approaching the question.
Tegmark observes, "if we cannot ask the hard question, why not start with hard facts for which we have physical evidence and should be able to quantify into mathematical terms.
I tend to agree with him on the pure objectivity in the abstract logical sense.
If mathematics is indeed a measurable essence of the 3D dynamical universal spacetime fabric and the expressed physical patterns in nature consist of sets of relational values, we can measure everything from at least that perspective and learn all there is to know about the mathematical nature of nature and it's role in the evolution of everything....
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