"Beyond Good and Evil"

You don't think you'd become immune after repeated exposure? Perhaps one would have you hiding in your darkened home listening to the tell tale heart - but 5 deaths later and you'd perhaps be back to casually reading books with only a small niggle from the conscience. Hardwired, Kernel, or Bios?

I've been reading some articles on empathy lately... but. New topic there.

 

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Wolf:

Allright, look you.

Let us see here- are you the kind that reads a line or hears a phrase and almost unwittingly get stuck on a small word or grammar?

For example, we take this phrase:

A. That is not true anymore
B. That is false anymore.

Would you fuss over the incongruity and despite being able to resume the reading or the hearing of it would some......thing.... stay in the back of your mind like an annoying mouse nibbling on something?

 

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Whereas, it is true that the first time one does something against his better judgment one will suffer the most guilt or uncomfortable feelings; however, not everyone becomes seared by repetition. Rather sometimes even a repeat offender will begin to feel so guilty that he cannot stand it. With others the first time is more than enough.
We simply cannot put people into categories and expect them to stay there like good little statistics, right? ......Pmt

 

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PMT:

Compunctions are not for the curious. The curious would be devouring themselves with the details and what-ifs, a madness insatiable by neither sleep nor leisure. Not guilt.

Hmm.

I actually agreed with Wolf but wished to point out soemthing first- BUT, if I took a needle and began poking your forehead with it you'd cringe the first couple times but given exposure your body would grow immune to it guaranteed. So with pscychology- the frailest women and children grew stiff in their exposures to the Holocaust and for the religious the mere routine of death killed all their faith.

Given any circumstance, anywhere with constancy life adapts to it, whatever it is. Its her hallmark. And so with psychology, no?

 

Gendanken, gosh I hate to do this, but I respecfully disagree. But, that's okay kiddo, I disagree with a lot of things. People would live their lives in ongoing misery if they adapted as well as you think, and FYI, not all hollocaust victims gave up their faith.
Sometimes we learn to cope, but this does not mean that we accept ... Can you agree with this?

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pmt

 

PMT:

Yowsa- she called me kiddo. Strike one.

Not all but death became commonplace, in the same way Nietszche has become something like a spatula now that so many are exposed to him. Naturally this lowers one's threshold or kills its stigma or mystery.
Understand?

Ah- acceptance is something else altogehter then, I doubt anyone was speaking of acceptance.

 

GENDANKEN: I am interested in what you wrote about Neitzsche. First, do you mean students are more exposed to him, and could you expound on the term "spatula?" I do understand that becoming common takes away the shock, the impact, the tendency to idolize or whatever, but why Neitzsche. Not that I disagree. I am not even sure what you mean, but I love hearing one's take on anything to do with philosophers. So 'splain, okay? Thanks. pmt

 

Pmt:

Nay- more like chatroom kiddies and cyber flora of all walks of life that troll through Neitzsche websites and then closing their little browsers at the end of the day feel themsleves all philosophized and sophisticated.
They beocome 'nihilists' only emotionally.
Self destruction then becomes an outline with no answers- so they flock around snippets of small hopes written by dead men and women.

They become self proclaimed 'misantrhopes' who'd fizzle in solitude.
These are not students.

A household item, a commodity.

Or something like toilet paper- picture Tyler the goth boy wiping his filth with a neat little quote and then throwing it away for another one. He does not like to be called by his real name now, you know. Its Draco.
Wow.

 

WROTE: "A household item, a commodity."

Funny!

As for your other comments, I am reminded of these: "In the end it is this initial dishonesty that breeds the sterile intellectualism of contemporary speculation. A man who is not certain of his mental integrity shuns the vital problems of human existence; any any moment the great laboratory of life may explode his little lie and leave him naked and shivering in the face of truth," and so on. Then, I like this: "He retreats fearfully into a little corner and insulates himself from the world under layer after layer of technical teminology........" Will Durant, THE MANSIONS OF PHILOSOHY

GENDANKEN
You explained yourself very well. Thank you. However, as for the dead folks, I must ask just how dead they are. I feel so much for poor negative Schopenhauer, and for Lord Byron. In general, I so admire the tenacity and perserverence of those long gone, and it makes me almost ill when someone feels quite justified in damning them, because of having read a commentary on the Internet or wherever, which, of course, as we all know, makes one an expert. Nice to see that someone else can be as sarcastic as I was so much in my youth and still am in the quiet times when I talk to myself.

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We have no real concept of what it was like for those early free thinkers. We spout of with our biggest consequence being to look foolish, whereas they risked reputation and life.

I will hush for now, but make no promises.

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........pmt

 

PMT:

Nice. Very nice.

Hide in test tubes, books, religion, philosophy,terminogly and you're only a naked human digging a hole to keep warm in if what you are doing is hiding.

I'll leave Byron alone but all 'poor' Schopenheaur needed was real misery.

From my second 'book':

"For Schopenheaur who locked himself away in his caves if only to write about misery, Freidrich prescribes misery if only to let a dying soul who easily mourns trifles realize his inexperienced chicanery. It is the alleviation of an existence, a quiet diturbing leisure that to a mind which thrives in the fires of drama finds simply uncomfortable and so wishes confilict imposed on itself like a bored housewife. Yet I wonder if this sentence he so easily presumes on Schopenhaeur does not also apply to himself- we find him in the throes of the Franco-Prussian war of course, but only volunteering as a nursing orderly for two months in 1870. He's a Proffessor Extraordinary of Classical Philology at the University of Basel, writes books and whiles away thinking- and still one may point out that that he was sick often but that is as common as tooth decay.
Perhaps he too needed real misery."- G

How does spouting off in the 'now' not risking reputation?

 

Gendanden: You write books? Interesting. I suppose many who venture onto this forum write. I have been writing for years, published a magazine for ten years, published a book of poetry...coward that I am, and am co-authoring a book, rather reluctantly. You do write well, I have noticed and mentioned before. Allow me:

"Notwithstanding, it is better that we dwell not on such human failures, lest we become absorbed with them. ....Gnawing on the twisted dry limbs of human weaknesses is at best a ghastly pastime. It is, after all, their conclusions we scrutinize, not thier motives! It is theit words they left for us--not their lifestyles. These were strong-minded, unique individuals, who believed that they had something worthwhile to tell. If these thinkers had one thing in common, it was a tremendous sense of their own mortality. Thus, with stiffened fingers, weary minds, and bodies overspent, they strove to complete their works before time ran out for them. They sought and pondered, with will to spend themselves to this end. Therefore, it was with great price--not excluding some self-destruction--that they carved their thoughts into our pages of history." Prologue to the poem, Their Bones Lie Quiet Now, Thoughts in Motion, (book of poetry).

This, of course, is quite opinionated, but most things are, even when not so poetic.

You asked: "How does spouting off in the 'now' not risking reputation?"

Well, it is not the same. For one thing, who cares if someone does not believe in the Christian concept, -not many. Who gets exiled or non-published because of being non-pious? See what I mean. Who has a funeral for one who disagrees with childhood teaching, excommunicates him, and pronounces all kinds of damnation publicly, threatening anyone who even comes within a close proximity. Gendanken, I get quite emotional about the ill treatment of people who are simply searching for truth. I think if we respect others, they are more likely to find truth than if we try to force feed them into our own limited concepts, and so forth. Am I missing what you were asking?
As Schopenhauer, his mother was pathetic. Never having a mother's love leaves a mark on a man that is extremely hard to change, and this coupled with the traumas and loss of faith in nineteenth century Europe had to be devastating. I am afraid I do not understand your statement about his needing real misery. I did like your your inclusion of Freidrich. Forgive me for my ignorance. I would venture that my understanding of Schopenhauer is much less than yours. I am a fan of Spinoza, and spend a lot of time with his writings, and many others, but so far as philosophers go, I mostly read Spinoza.

What is the name of your book? ////.......pmt

 

PMT:

Not necessarily a book, which is why I have the thing up there in quotes- i.e. 'book'.

In short, I have no fucking clue what to call it other than a collective bolus of paper and scrap stuffed in three notebooks.

I don't know what it is- a thought comes up and neither sleep nor joy can come until I have the beast down on paper. It tends to eat at you from the inside if you keep it caged so you spill it out somwhere- theories, prose, maxims, philosophy. Also, don't know how common it is with others but in reading I will place a mark next to things I find interesting and then in leisure or when pissy I transcribe everything marked into those notebooks.

Chaos and disorder- I have absolutely no discipline. I only find the writing of things helps to tame the headnoise. You realzie schizophrenics devolop a condition called hypergraphia?

You wrote this, yes? Its...wonderful. For a chick anyway, kidding.

No shit. its only when opinions concur that we call things 'good'. A sham is life, a tale told by an idiot.

But don't you realize there has only been a change in method?
The story has not changed- one can isolate without exhile, kill without a drop of blood on one's pinky, even bring another to shame for not sharing one's views in these 'modern' days.
Only difference is the killing is done far more diplomatically.

Strindberg calls this soul murder:

"From having been purely physical (imprisonment, torture, death) the struggle for power has gradually developed into something more psychological, but no less cruel for that. In the past, desposts ruled by means of muscular men in armor; nowadays majorities (or minorities) rule with the assistance of newspaper articles and ballot papers. In the past one killed one's adversary witthuout trying to persuade him; nowadays one creates a majority against him, prevails upon him, exposes his intentions, ascribes to him intentions he does not have, deprives him of his livelihood, denies him social standing, makes him look ridiculous- in short, tortures him to death by lies or drives him insane instead of killing him."


.....and in doing so, kills him. In the past it was far more obvious and "midieval" whearas now the same dark little secret thrives, but in hiding. Its this hyegenic methodoly nowadyas that's ironically far more bloodier.

You don't see how easier it is nowadyas, do you?

He inhereted wealth that was bigass, never worked a day in his life laborwise, and yet there we find him speaking of the 'turbulent stream' of existence?

Spinoza- too godsy and lovey wovy. Had his Ethics sitting on my shelf for a year after reading the first sappy chapter and never touched him again. Blegh.

"Wannabe."

Kidding.


***Edit****
For what its worth, an instathought

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35604

inspired by William Durant. Wonderful little book, that one.

 

Why you say anything good or evil?
Good and evil are actually subjetive things.
It is relevant to the society, invidual, knowlege.
Some good things to somebody may be evil to others.

We label the things that may hurt the survivals, our feelings, or anything alternate to our believes as evil.

Goods things may be the right or wrong, since the world is ever-changing, but the old views is remain itself. Thus, the so-called being good may affect our survival. When the problems become serious or in some situation, the concept of good and evil will be changed, when there 's no food at all, would you eat other people? When you are hungry as hell, god has gone no where.

 

Oh, for crying out loud, Semon! Just kidding, kind Sir, but shoot O'dear, can we not make a statement about something once in a while, and have it be thought provoking, rather than wondering if the stars and the ocean truly exist.

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If now, okay!
pmt

 

I just want to step up my post number.

 

I would read the posts before I reply then, sorry for the disturbance.

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Gendanken wrote candidly to Pmt: "In short, I have no f...ing (

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) clue what to call it other than a collective bolus of paper and scrap stuffed in three notebooks.

I don't know what it is- a thought comes up and neither sleep nor joy can come until I have the beast down on paper. It tends to eat at you from the inside if you keep it caged so you spill it out somwhere- theories, prose, maxims, philosophy. Also, don't know how common it is with others but in reading I will place a mark next to things I find interesting and then in leisure or when pissy I transcribe everything marked into those notebooks."

Oh, I love Spinoza. If you only knew what a blessing he was to me when first I read his preface to Theologico-Political Treatise. We bonded right then and there, and there is no one I love more than that scientist, who also did philosophy. If I recall correctly, you are an agnostic. Am I right. If so, then maybe that would explain, though Christians consider Spinoza to be an atheist. But while reading the above, I had to smile, because I could relate to what you were saying. I become so thrilled sometimes with what I read that I cannot sleep. I aquired The Story of Philosophy in 1984, and still carry that book around as though it were a pacifier. I now have The Mansions of Philosophy, and just acquired, from a friend on a borrow, volumes I and VIII of The Story of Civilization, also by Durant. I shall not live long enough to read these two and the other nine volumes, that I might could also borrow.

Back to Spinoza: he is so eloquent, and so precious, something is askew, becaue I just read the other thread you mentioned at the bottom, and you have a heart of grace. (There are probably other things in your heart too, but you obviously love truth and being real and to hell with the sophisticated undertakers-type thing.) I think this is why I fell in love with some Finnish musicians who were visiting a friend. One of the singers is so sweet and real, and it does not seem to concern him at all. He has a wife and two teeny boppers, and plays drums in a kind of western bank in Finland, but on the CD I have, his singing and drumming are beautiful. Spinoza lived his life more like Christ (or just as much so...to be fair) than anyone else that I could mention off the top of my head. Yet, the Christians call him an athiest and others have called him the man obsessed with God. But, ahh, Durant wrote a beautiful thing to say that Spinoza had more influence on his life than any other one person. I cannot say that he has influenced me so much as he encouraged me, and maybe that is not so different than being influenced.

Gendanken wrote: "Chaos and disorder- I have absolutely no discipline. I only find the writing of things helps to tame the headnoise. You realzie schizophrenics devolop a condition called hypergraphia?"

I too lack discipline and notice this rather often. If I may, I prefer not to label folks, but realize that your tongue was in your cheek.

Gendanken: "You wrote this, yes? Its...wonderful. For a chick anyway, kidding."

I truly enjoy people who have opinions and some knowledge and sense to go with them, male or female, but I do find very few women who travel on this road I have chosen. I guess I am a bit of strange duck, because I very much believe in God, I cringe at much of the religious literature, not much shocks me, and I love people, and animals, waterfalls and crawdads. Yet, I have a temper and a soft heart and sometimes my head is a bit soft too. I have lived a long time, and I like who I am. I hope you like who you are. I hope that for everyone.


Gendanken wrote: "No shit. its only when opinions concur that we call things 'good'. A sham is life, a tale told by an idiot."

That is not original, is it?

Gendanken: "But don't you realize there has only been a change in method?
The story has not changed- one can isolate without exhile, kill without a drop of blood on one's pinky, even bring another to shame for not sharing one's views in these 'modern' days. Only difference is the killing is done far more diplomatically."

You are so right, except possibly for "the only difference." That could be a whole thread. Yet, my point is also valid. I think our views change when we climb out of the nest of academia and leave the scholastic playground. Except for on this forum, I do not mess with all the trite questioning; I have too many questions of my own. I am in my twilight years and am loving having the time to devote to books, without paining from the rungs on the corporate ladder, worrying about the neighborhood schools, and whether I will see my kids grown. To truly philosophy is not to be hateful about it, or to try to outsmart someone, but to share and to treasure the good in it, and laugh at the ridiculous. It was Cicero that said, "There is nothing so absurd but that it can be found in the books of philosophers." Yet Plato called it a delight. Guess, like other things, it depends upon how one looks at it.

"Strindberg calls this soul murder:

Gendanken wrote: "You don't see how easier it is nowadyas, do you?"

Well, yes I do. There are extreme cases, of course, and more and more of these seem to pop up as time goes by; nonetheless, to be exiled as impious, because one states that the sun is a ball of fire, was more extreme than I can scarcely imagine. Most of the greats were not appreciated until after their death. We see glory, when they saw failure; we see footprints, if you will, in our history books, while they often felt they had not only been demeaned and denied, but that their work may never be known. I see your point; I do, and I appreciate what you are bringing to light. But I have to think that although I might envy them for the strength of their convictions, they had a bit of a different picture of where their convictions had led them.
Lord Byron at a very young age was reaching to taste death, and did die young. Spinoza was 44, I think, when he died, and was sick for some time before he passed.

Gendanken wrote, re: Schopenhauer: "He inhereted wealth that was bigass, never worked a day in his life laborwise, and yet there we find him speaking of the 'turbulent stream' of existence?"

Woe, there. Surely, you give wealth too much credit. However, when one is poor one would theoretically have less time to whine, but that is--or can be--part of the downside of having so much, is having so much empty time. Naw, I have to hurt for the guy.

Spinoza- too godsy and lovey wovy. Had his Ethics sitting on my shelf for a year after reading the first sappy chapter and never touched him again. Blegh.

Interesting. Someone recently criticized me on another thread for similar reasons. Tough t.......!

You are at heart a writer, no doubt. When I was staying with some friends, one asked me why I did not type my notes. I said, "These are not notes; I am writing the history of the Jews as told in this book." She asked why, and I said, it stays with me better, and gives me more time to relish it. I do this with Spinoza and Durant mostly. Otherwise, they are notes, as when I watch TV, listen to a lecture, read a book, talk on the phone. If it is something good, I do not wish to forget it. I have boxes of stuff; some my own. Sometimes I wonder at my ability to write so well,

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...and other times, I think, "What in the duce was I trying to say?"

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http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35604

I went there. Good job. I will go there tomorrow if I can, and post something. because I think it is good.

Pmt.

 

Semon<> You did not disturb me. Do say whatever you like. I am nobody. I think I had a hangover from another conversation, or something like that.

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God, you're such a little Christian- can't say fuck, cunt, or order chicken-fried-baby around you people.

But I'll leave you alone, professional courtesy.

Headnoise ok..... but for Spinoza?

*sigh* If you say, so. At least you sympthize.

I had no clue Durant was influenced by Spinoza. Who'd a thunk?

No, schizophrenics really do develop this condition where they have to keep writing, and keep writing and writing and writing and talking to themselves as they write, called hypergraphia.

The sham is life, yes, original. The tale told by an idiot is Shakesperean. (Macbeth)

Yikes....
Uhm..dude, no I don't.

Good, then it awaits.

 

Sorry for the delay Gendy...

Might have left this alone too long and lost track, but I'm not actually sure what you were asking me there - care to rephrase?