Degrees of Misogyny

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    5,003
    Some quotes from the links:
    This is, at least, open: The aim is not a society of equality, but one with masters and supplicants - only with the roles reversed, and the men as the supplicants. No problem with this, except that this is usually hidden behind equality talk.

    This is even worse. Politeness is part of culture. A simple exchange of roles would not necessarily destroy culture - it would only revert the roles. The new masters and the new supplicants could continue to follow cultural norms. But what is this? Politeness, culture itself, will be destroyed.

    Why? What could be the aim? Culture gives some safety. The polite guy is safe. Not safe against violence, but against moral condemnation. So, a modern man, who does not want to be a sexist or so, may think that if he behaves in a polite way, he will be safe from such accusations. Not so. He is a sexist too. Every man is a sexist, always. There is no way for men to be safe from accusations of sexism. And this is worse than the reverted master/supplicant relation, because the supplicant is also safe if he submits to the master and follows the established rules of politeness and so on. For a society without such security for the lower class, where it is unclear what you have to do if you don't want to become tomorrow an enemy of the people, or a sexist, or whatever, there is another name: totalitarism.

    Of course, there is yet a big difference between all this and a really totalitarian society - where I could no write such texts - but we already have a society where one thinks twice before writing them.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you.

    Thank you.

    This has been the very core of every argument I've made since post 25. I appreciate the concessions.

    Never disagreed that misogyny is a bad thing. It is present, and it needs to be addressed. Absolutely. But it does no one any good getting terms confused by blurring the lines between them. We have helped strengthen the argument in favour of expunging misogyny, by clarifying the message, even if a fraction.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Blah blah blah...

    All you seem to want to think is that inequality doesn't exist.
     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    My question goes to Tiassa: how is misogyny more entitled to attention than
    It certainly does exist.
     
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Disrespect and contempt exist in many, many forms. If we can't even agree to show respect here in this thread, what business is it of anyone asking for special dispensation for a particular flavour of respect?

    Surely a basic amount of respect for humans full stop must precede respect for any particular group of humans.
     
  9. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Um... do you actually have an argument? There is a huge difference between men and women. As has been for, like, the dawn of time. All of your counter arguments do not at all come close to that.

    So, shut up.
     
  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Except for those pesky women who think it's unacceptable, but they don't count in your book↑, do they?

    Except for the occasion that you weren't↑, right?

    Thirteeen days, a hundred twelve posts later, and you still haven't answered.

    And now what―

    ―you want to negotiate according to some pretense of civility that licenses your bigotry?

    You could have tried answering the issue, but you deliberately chose evasion, and have spent nearly two weeks trying to slither around it. Dishonesty is not a good bargaining position, DaveC; you would have better leverage had you chosen a path at least a little less dishonorable.

    One you have utterly failed to fulfill.

    And, besides, as people have noted, we are not fulfilling your expectation that people should license your misogyny.

    Please recognize that your particular bigot troll's routine is, in fact, not original. In fact, it's pretty much a cliché. After thirteen days of deliberately disrespectful behavior, it's not surprising that you would pop off with a post like that. Neither is it useful.

    That you've come full circle trying to normalize bigotry according to bigotry in order to inflate your self-perception is not surprising, either.

    You have encapsulated the problem of misogyny in your attempt to justify it by normalization, that this bigotry is normalized, acceptable behavior.

    And as it ceases to be, well, it's only a problem for those who need women put in their mythical place. When drowning in fears of your own inadequacy, the solution is to learn how to swim, not look for women to haul down with you.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Let's have you join us in using the definition of misogyny posted in the OP of the thread.

    Failing that, let's have you at least argue against the arguments as made, rather than against some different argument you have produced by redefining terms.

    It's the other way around. You respect all by respecting each. Otherwise, your respect is an abstraction, and your concrete reality likely to be disrespectful.

    I am asserting that all sexism has roots in misogyny, in the US. Whether that makes it all "misogynistic" or not I leave to others.

    The initial confusion of misogyny with hatred is not Dave's alone, but widely shared (see exchemist's link to compiled "feminists's" takes). I regard that as evidence for cultural norms of justification, hence a cultural norm of misogyny in need of justification.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You, Tiassa, demonstrably consider contempt and disrespect to be normal, acceptable behavior. It's hypocritical to expect any kind of respect.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    I argued earlier in the thread that all misogyny stems from sexism and I also argued that all of it breeds in the same vicious pond.

    And I do agree with you, Iceaura, that sexism has roots in misogyny, like misogyny has roots in sexism. I think Dave's attempts to redefine the terms to make sexism somehow less harmful than "hateful" misogyny is easily recognised in this thread. So much so that he has pondered repeatedly the harmless sexism that is opening doors. But you are absolutely correct, that sexism, as we experience it today, has deep roots in misogyny. One only has to read ancient Greek writings, to see just how entrenched it was in society and continues to be today.

    We have been conditioned to accept sexism and forced to believe that it isn't all really that bad or negative. I find Dave's attempts to single out the two definitions, to separate them, troubling and somewhat insulting.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Here's Mirriam Websters' definition of sexism:
    "unfair treatment of people because of their sex; especially : unfair treatment of women:

    Note no use of the term "hateful".
    There are certainly multiple recorded definitions to be found, but it is nonsensical to claim I tried to 'redefine the terms' by somehow removing hatred. It's not there.

    Consider taking a stance that doesn't require you to make stuff up. It will help your case.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    What you tried to do was restrict the term "misogyny" to situations of overt, personal hatred. That's so you could separate it from sexism, which often does not involve overt, personal hatred among its perps.

    1) Merriam Webster, especially online, is a lousy dictionary. Better are easily found. Don't post from it in serious discussions. 2) Whether some dictionary writer, or poster such as yourself, finds sexism hateful or not, hardly matters.
     
  16. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Personally, I'd like Dave to provide some examples of "unfair treatment" being deliberately imposed without malice upon a person or class of persons. Can you do that Dave? So I don't have to, you know "make stuff up?"
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    He can do that - starting with the refusal to promote women to high paying jobs because their delicate and irrational sensibilities would find the pressures of the jobs distressing. The guy isn't malicious - he really is protecting the weak and vulnerable from themselves.
     
  18. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Good point... Might be a bit overt for Dave though - he would run into other problems with that line - a bit like "Some of my best friends are black / gay, etc"
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    And still no answer.

    Honestly, I didn't think it was any sort of difficult question↑.
     
  20. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    As the Head Linguist in this tribe, I spent some time examining the meanings and etymologies of the words "misogyny" and "sexism." I find no substantive difference, except for the obvious: misogyny is, by sheer virtue of grammar, directed only at women, whereas sexism could be (conceivably and logically but at this moment in North American history only theoretically) directed at men.
    Those of us who are a little older can say exactly the same thing about racism. Fortunately the 1960s happened and a large majority of us learned that "We shall overcome," although unfortunately only "some day," not today.

    The same forces, that helped (most of) us understand that racism is wrong, at the same moment also did the same for sexism. Both, unfortunately are still with us, but younger Americans will surely live to see the end of racism, although due to some biological issues (women interrupting their careers for pregnancy and baby care, especially as the phenomenon of single motherhood becomes more common), sexism will take a little longer.
    You're not the only one. And unfortunately, neither is he.
     
  21. Waiter_2001 Registered Senior Member

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    Typical woman!

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    Seriously though, EVERYONE loves women, especially their Mothers.

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  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Well, that's wrong. Among the many: misogyny is psychological, sexism is behavioral; misogyny is potential, sexism is kinetic; misogyny is necessarily individual and personal even if culture-wide, sexism is often institutionalized and bureaucratically established even when local. These are not trivial or insubstantial differences. Even if these terms are different aspects of one "thing", in a sense, they are different aspects.

    As the guy said: There is one pair of synonyms in English - gorse and furze.

    One of the holes in American political discourse is the absence of an established word that stands in the same relationship to racism that misogyny stands to sexism. ("Bigotry" doesn't quite cut it). Likewise with anti-Semitism (note the puzzling and unnecessary "anti"). One consequence is that the inculcation of the particular complex of mental disorders necessary for the maintenance of cultural racism is obscured - without a name, it's hard to think about it in concert with other people
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I beg your pardon. The first definition of sexism in Dictionary.com is: "Attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of gender roles."

    It goes on to give more nuanced definitions. The second leans more toward behavior, and the third leans more toward attitude.

    The fourth and last is very succinct: a synonym for misogyny.
     

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