davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Have you an idea what supernatural evidence would be?
Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?
- Thread starter zacariah88
- Start date
zacariah88
Registered Member
Supernatural evidence thus show it is real. And their is evidence of demons and satan like Michael345 said. Will later show.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
I'll look forward to seeing the evidence.
davewhite04:
God's laws and actions seem arbitary. Some of them look downright evil.
Or are you saying God isn't perfect, and God has needs and desires?
Also, wouldn't a simpler explanation for this imperfect world we find ourselves in be that a perfect being wasn't involved in its creation? That it's, to some extent at least, an accident?
This is not a problem, of course, unless you think that (a) God is perfect and (b) God is perfectly Good.
Is the God you believe in evil, then? Or just arbitrary in his moral choices?
Does God have anything to do with determining what evil or good is, in your opinion? Or should we pretty much ignore whatever this God has to say about good and evil?
It's the same reason you don't believe that Spongebob Squarepants really lives on Earth in a place called Bikini Bottom.
By what method do you distinguish supernatural evidence from natural evidence? (i.e. how do you know when something is supernatural?)
Thanks for asking. I'm good. Hope you're doing well, too.
I was thinking more along the lines of being tossed out of Eden, so that farming suddenly became a necessity that it wasn't before.
God saved all the stuff about the bans on eating shellfish and wearing clothes of mixed cloth for later. Important laws, clearly.
That's a convenient excuse you're making for your God. It can be used to absolve God of blame for anything you want. You just say "God moves in mysterious ways, and our place is not to question why."
God's laws and actions seem arbitary. Some of them look downright evil.
Why does God expect human beings to follow a different morality than he himself follows?
Why did God create a world or human beings in the first place? A perfect being is complete within himself. He has no needs or unfulfilled desires. Therefore, there's no reason for him to create a world or humans.
Or are you saying God isn't perfect, and God has needs and desires?
Also, wouldn't a simpler explanation for this imperfect world we find ourselves in be that a perfect being wasn't involved in its creation? That it's, to some extent at least, an accident?
Why does your soul need to experience evil?
I haven't, so far. How about you?
That's quite a different point of view from the one in the bible. Do you think the bible is the word of God, davewhite? Or just parts of it? Or what? Is your God the God of the bible, or do you have a separate understanding of God?
You don't believe that God is Goodness personified, then. I guess that view is supported by the bible. But I don't think it's what most Christians would say about God.
How do you know that?
The difference is, you're not an all-powerful being who has the ability to prevent all bad choices.
If your God created this world, that includes all the evil and bad choices in it. God knew in advance all of that would exist in the world he chose to create. As an all-powerful being, he could have chosen to create a world without evil or bad choices.
This is not a problem, of course, unless you think that (a) God is perfect and (b) God is perfectly Good.
According to Christian doctrine, God and Jesus and one and the same - part of the Holy Trinity. It follows that Jesus's sacrifice was really God sacrificing himself - only he really didn't, because he's still here - to atone for the sins of the world - which God created by choice and which still continue long after the resurrection of Jesus. What was the point of all this, then?
You don't believe in a Good God, then. That much is clear.
Is the God you believe in evil, then? Or just arbitrary in his moral choices?
Does God have anything to do with determining what evil or good is, in your opinion? Or should we pretty much ignore whatever this God has to say about good and evil?
Impossible. You have not lived for an eternity.
How can you rule out their existence, based on your "experience"? What possible experience could you have had which disproves the existence of heaven or hell? Please share.
How could you know there are perfect worlds?
Where does God fit into that?
Because I have not seen anything that convinces me that any such a being is real.
It's the same reason you don't believe that Spongebob Squarepants really lives on Earth in a place called Bikini Bottom.
What supernatural evidence do you have?
By what method do you distinguish supernatural evidence from natural evidence? (i.e. how do you know when something is supernatural?)
Do you want to share the personal experiences and explain how they led you to know that God is real?
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
James R:
I was thinking more along the lines of being tossed out of Eden, so that farming suddenly became a necessity that it wasn't before.
I view it as God giving us independence.
all the stuff about the bans on eating shellfish and wearing clothes of mixed cloth for later. Important laws, clearly.
Those are Jewish laws, for the God of the bible’s chosen people. As for the rest of us everything goes. Why Jews wear clothes that makes them distinct? The God of the bible feels it’s important, probably to distinguish them from the gentiles(like Muslims, Hindu's etc.).
That's a convenient excuse you're making for your God. It can be used to absolve God of blame for anything you want. You just say "God moves in mysterious ways, and our place is not to question why."
It’s true, God does move in mysterious ways. The reason we don’t understand is because we are advanced apes, how can we pretend to know God’s mind?
God's laws and actions seem arbitrary. Some of them look downright evil.
Which laws are evil?
Why does God expect human beings to follow a different morality than he himself follows?
Because we are humans, we need laws.
Why did God create a world or human beings in the first place? A perfect being is complete within himself. He has no needs or unfulfilled desires. Therefore, there's no reason for him to create a world or humans. Or are you saying God isn't perfect, and God has needs and desires?
Good point. Maybe God needs us for some reason. Maybe wanted a relationship with all its creation. Who knows? Would that make God less than perfect?
Also, wouldn't a simpler explanation for this imperfect world we find ourselves in be that a perfect being wasn't involved in its creation? That it's, to some extent at least, an accident?
This is a possibility, but where are the would-be gods of creation now? Did the universe or Earth come into existence due to a random big bang that had no cause only a reaction, which makes no sense. Do you believe the universe was created with nothing?
Why does your soul need to experience evil?
It doesn't need to, it’s a case of it existing in the first place on this temporary abode. We’re experiencing life on this planet which includes good and evil. We learn what is evil and what is good, and live according to your desire.
I haven't, so far. How about you?
Nope, hence my “maybe”.
That's quite a different point of view from the one in the bible. Do you think the bible is the word of God, davewhite? Or just parts of it? Or what? Is your God the God of the bible, or do you have a separate understanding of God?
The bible is an interesting read, unlike all the mythology I’ve looked at where they can’t get some stories straight, the bible seems like it’s written by one author which is incredible for a book that was written by different authors over a 1500yr period. I have a lot of respect for the bible I think it contains many valuable lessons.
You don't believe that God is Goodness personified, then. I guess that view is supported by the bible. But I don't think it's what most Christians would say about God.
I'm not a Christian.
How do you know that?
The cosmological argument. Everything has a cause, including the big bang. I propose this being is transcendent, timeless, space less and all-powerful super intelligence that triggered the big bang. Why? Maybe God wanted life, like some parents want a child.
The difference is, you're not an all-powerful being who has the ability to prevent all bad choices.
Bad choices are part of our existence in this world, it’s one of the reasons we’re here, I’m sure. To learn what it’s like to be a human being.
If your God created this world, that includes all the evil and bad choices in it. God knew in advance all of that would exist in the world he chose to create. As an all-powerful being, he could have chosen to create a world without evil or bad choices.
No doubt God has created world without evil and bad choices, we just happen to have decided to come here to learn. We’re like infants in a crib with God looking down on us. We are learning. How much have you learnt about bad choices and good choices?
This is not a problem, of course, unless you think that (a) God is perfect and (b) God is perfectly Good.
God is a perfect balance of good and evil. God is also love.
According to Christian doctrine, God and Jesus and one and the same - part of the Holy Trinity. It follows that Jesus's sacrifice was really God sacrificing himself - only he really didn't, because he's still here - to atone for the sins of the world - which God created by choice and which still continue long after the resurrection of Jesus. What was the point of all this, then?
I often think of this. I believe Jesus existed, whether he was the only begotten son of God is debatable. As is who his creator is, I see none of the God of the Old Testament in the New Testament. It’s as if He disappeared, along with all the gods of mythology.
Is the God you believe in evil, then? Or just arbitrary in his moral choices?
God is both good and evil.
Does God have anything to do with determining what evil or good is, in your opinion? Or should we pretty much ignore whatever this God has to say about good and evil?
The God of the bible does. I don’t think what is good and evil to us is necessarily good and evil to God.
Impossible. You have not lived for an eternity.
I believe we have existed since the beginning of time, or even before. We are all sparks of God, all animals, plants, rocks, water etc. all have the eternal spark(soul).
How can you rule out their existence, based on your "experience"? What possible experience could you have had which disproves the existence of heaven or hell? Please share.
I cannot rule out their existence, I just strongly believe there is not.
How could you know there are perfect worlds?
"I know" to me is purely subjective. It makes sense to me. I know we’re eternal.
Where does God fit into that?
God wanted a mess.
Because I have not seen anything that convinces me that any such a being is real.
It's the same reason you don't believe that Spongebob Squarepants really lives on Earth in a place called Bikini Bottom.
Logical.
What supernatural evidence do you have?
I have no objective evidence just sharing my thoughts.
By what method do you distinguish supernatural evidence from natural evidence? (i.e. how do you know when something is supernatural?)
Supernatural evidence is not measurable, repeatable etc. This is why you don’t believe in a God, there is no scientific evidence at all, and you’re a scientist who requires evidence before you believe. You’ve had none(I assume) supernatural experiences, so not even subjective evidence you have. Atheist is your only option.
Do you want to share the personal experiences and explain how they led you to know that God is real?
I’ve shared one supernatural experience (Eastern Philosophy), I have three more which I'll probably share when appropriate. What led me to believe? A collection of my experiences and by studying various texts, it seems impossible for a God not to exist, this is why God is very real to me.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking more along the lines of being tossed out of Eden, so that farming suddenly became a necessity that it wasn't before.
I view it as God giving us independence.
all the stuff about the bans on eating shellfish and wearing clothes of mixed cloth for later. Important laws, clearly.
Those are Jewish laws, for the God of the bible’s chosen people. As for the rest of us everything goes. Why Jews wear clothes that makes them distinct? The God of the bible feels it’s important, probably to distinguish them from the gentiles(like Muslims, Hindu's etc.).
That's a convenient excuse you're making for your God. It can be used to absolve God of blame for anything you want. You just say "God moves in mysterious ways, and our place is not to question why."
It’s true, God does move in mysterious ways. The reason we don’t understand is because we are advanced apes, how can we pretend to know God’s mind?
God's laws and actions seem arbitrary. Some of them look downright evil.
Which laws are evil?
Why does God expect human beings to follow a different morality than he himself follows?
Because we are humans, we need laws.
Why did God create a world or human beings in the first place? A perfect being is complete within himself. He has no needs or unfulfilled desires. Therefore, there's no reason for him to create a world or humans. Or are you saying God isn't perfect, and God has needs and desires?
Good point. Maybe God needs us for some reason. Maybe wanted a relationship with all its creation. Who knows? Would that make God less than perfect?
Also, wouldn't a simpler explanation for this imperfect world we find ourselves in be that a perfect being wasn't involved in its creation? That it's, to some extent at least, an accident?
This is a possibility, but where are the would-be gods of creation now? Did the universe or Earth come into existence due to a random big bang that had no cause only a reaction, which makes no sense. Do you believe the universe was created with nothing?
Why does your soul need to experience evil?
It doesn't need to, it’s a case of it existing in the first place on this temporary abode. We’re experiencing life on this planet which includes good and evil. We learn what is evil and what is good, and live according to your desire.
I haven't, so far. How about you?
Nope, hence my “maybe”.
That's quite a different point of view from the one in the bible. Do you think the bible is the word of God, davewhite? Or just parts of it? Or what? Is your God the God of the bible, or do you have a separate understanding of God?
The bible is an interesting read, unlike all the mythology I’ve looked at where they can’t get some stories straight, the bible seems like it’s written by one author which is incredible for a book that was written by different authors over a 1500yr period. I have a lot of respect for the bible I think it contains many valuable lessons.
You don't believe that God is Goodness personified, then. I guess that view is supported by the bible. But I don't think it's what most Christians would say about God.
I'm not a Christian.
How do you know that?
The cosmological argument. Everything has a cause, including the big bang. I propose this being is transcendent, timeless, space less and all-powerful super intelligence that triggered the big bang. Why? Maybe God wanted life, like some parents want a child.
The difference is, you're not an all-powerful being who has the ability to prevent all bad choices.
Bad choices are part of our existence in this world, it’s one of the reasons we’re here, I’m sure. To learn what it’s like to be a human being.
If your God created this world, that includes all the evil and bad choices in it. God knew in advance all of that would exist in the world he chose to create. As an all-powerful being, he could have chosen to create a world without evil or bad choices.
No doubt God has created world without evil and bad choices, we just happen to have decided to come here to learn. We’re like infants in a crib with God looking down on us. We are learning. How much have you learnt about bad choices and good choices?
This is not a problem, of course, unless you think that (a) God is perfect and (b) God is perfectly Good.
God is a perfect balance of good and evil. God is also love.
According to Christian doctrine, God and Jesus and one and the same - part of the Holy Trinity. It follows that Jesus's sacrifice was really God sacrificing himself - only he really didn't, because he's still here - to atone for the sins of the world - which God created by choice and which still continue long after the resurrection of Jesus. What was the point of all this, then?
I often think of this. I believe Jesus existed, whether he was the only begotten son of God is debatable. As is who his creator is, I see none of the God of the Old Testament in the New Testament. It’s as if He disappeared, along with all the gods of mythology.
Is the God you believe in evil, then? Or just arbitrary in his moral choices?
God is both good and evil.
Does God have anything to do with determining what evil or good is, in your opinion? Or should we pretty much ignore whatever this God has to say about good and evil?
The God of the bible does. I don’t think what is good and evil to us is necessarily good and evil to God.
Impossible. You have not lived for an eternity.
I believe we have existed since the beginning of time, or even before. We are all sparks of God, all animals, plants, rocks, water etc. all have the eternal spark(soul).
How can you rule out their existence, based on your "experience"? What possible experience could you have had which disproves the existence of heaven or hell? Please share.
I cannot rule out their existence, I just strongly believe there is not.
How could you know there are perfect worlds?
"I know" to me is purely subjective. It makes sense to me. I know we’re eternal.
Where does God fit into that?
God wanted a mess.
Because I have not seen anything that convinces me that any such a being is real.
It's the same reason you don't believe that Spongebob Squarepants really lives on Earth in a place called Bikini Bottom.
Logical.
What supernatural evidence do you have?
I have no objective evidence just sharing my thoughts.
By what method do you distinguish supernatural evidence from natural evidence? (i.e. how do you know when something is supernatural?)
Supernatural evidence is not measurable, repeatable etc. This is why you don’t believe in a God, there is no scientific evidence at all, and you’re a scientist who requires evidence before you believe. You’ve had none(I assume) supernatural experiences, so not even subjective evidence you have. Atheist is your only option.
Do you want to share the personal experiences and explain how they led you to know that God is real?
I’ve shared one supernatural experience (Eastern Philosophy), I have three more which I'll probably share when appropriate. What led me to believe? A collection of my experiences and by studying various texts, it seems impossible for a God not to exist, this is why God is very real to me.[/QUOTE]
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No, not really. Maybe if a Christian holy man said that he prayed to God and God said he was going to heal a one armed man and then the man grew a new arm, I would have some very serious doubts about my beliefs.
zacariah88
Registered Member
But back to the discussion.
zacariah88
Registered Member
a good friend said this.
Premise 1: There are 3 billion people who never heard of Christ -see https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...lion.who.have.never.heard.of.jesus/136398.htm
Premise 2: One must know of Christ to be saved (John 3:18)
Conclusion: Free will is impossible to at least 25%
Premise 1: Approximately 25% of individuals do not reach the age of accountability due to abortions, sickness, miscarriages, war, etc.
Conclusion: Free will is impossible for all these people
Premise 1: Children have a great tendency to be of the same religion as their parent(s) ... see https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...us-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/
Conclusion: The decision of people is very often not entirely their own which contradicts the concept of free will
Premise 1: Free Will is not found in the bible
Conclusion: Free Will is not biblical. ... like "dah".
Premise 1: There are 3 billion people who never heard of Christ -see https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...lion.who.have.never.heard.of.jesus/136398.htm
Premise 2: One must know of Christ to be saved (John 3:18)
Conclusion: Free will is impossible to at least 25%
Premise 1: Approximately 25% of individuals do not reach the age of accountability due to abortions, sickness, miscarriages, war, etc.
Conclusion: Free will is impossible for all these people
Premise 1: Children have a great tendency to be of the same religion as their parent(s) ... see https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...us-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/
Conclusion: The decision of people is very often not entirely their own which contradicts the concept of free will
Premise 1: Free Will is not found in the bible
Conclusion: Free Will is not biblical. ... like "dah".
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
origin:
Maybe if a Christian holy man said that he prayed to God and God said he was going to heal a one armed man and then the man grew a new arm, I would have some very serious doubts about my beliefs.
That's fair enough, just remember you'd be left with subjective evidence.
Maybe if a Christian holy man said that he prayed to God and God said he was going to heal a one armed man and then the man grew a new arm, I would have some very serious doubts about my beliefs.
That's fair enough, just remember you'd be left with subjective evidence.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
A man regrowing an arm is some pretty hard objective evidence.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Not if its not repeatable, and you were the only one to see it.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I don't believe that origin specified any such constraints. If it happened at the Mayo Clinic in front of a hundred doctors and news crews, it would not be 'subjective evidence'.
But it's moot. origin's point is simply that there are plenty of conceivable scenarios where supernatural events could occur in a way so public as to cause him (and many other skeptics) to have "serious doubts about their beliefs". That's not really yours to refute.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
No. But it wouldn't be evidence for God.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Sure it would. The circumstances surrounding the holy man's assertions, and the subsequent regrowing of arm, despite any known science, does support the God theory.
It just wouldn't be conclusive evidence for God.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Actually, we're not talking about evidence for God, it is simply "supernatural" evidence. Would you accept that as evidence?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Well, that's kind of tricky. 'supernatural' isn't an explanation, it's a label - a bucket - for anything "as-yet unknown and that appears to defy the laws of nature".
So an unexplained incident lends credence to some explanation that falls under the supernatural label, but 'supernatural' is not, itself, an explanation.
Any such explanation - being that it is unexplained - might very well end up being quite understandable and natural, once the details are uncovered, and thus stop being supernatural in nature.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Origin's original statement: "Maybe if a Christian holy man said that he prayed to God and God said he was going to heal a one armed man and then the man grew a new arm,"
Dave, would you agree that growing a new arm is supernatural?
Depends how you grow it of course! If it's due to a new stem cell therapy, it's not. If you sprinkle holy water on the stump and then POP a new arm appears - definitely.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Thank you, would you agree that it would be subjective/objective evidence?
I'd still be agnostic about the supernatural being responsible (albeit a mitigated stance, compared to before). If no time-limit was expressed (the new arm doesn't have to immediately appear), then it might be the handiwork of nanobots or programmed synthetic micro-life. And the "holy man" an ET robot explorer, time-traveller, etc in disguise. IOW, I'd fall back on every "crazy" natural explanation possible before attributing it to direct intervention from a simulator level (the latter bypassing its own strict rules/regularities for how the lower-in-rank reality operates).
_