# I belive

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Richilin, Jun 22, 1999.

1. ### RichilinGuest

I belive that the whole bible is true. Every single word. How about that?!!!! We were CREATED of course. If you see a house, do you doubt that someone has made it? Do you belive me if Id tell you that once upon a time there where just some bricks? But... as time has gone by the house has been built all by it self. How stupid! And, if you use your brain... Do you really belive that something so complicated and so difficult like a humanbeeing could be developed out uf nothing- the big bang???? The sienticets cant even make a simple flower by themselves... Its so obvious that someone, an intellegens greater than everything else, must have made the earth, the people, the flowers, everything. How can anyone who doesnt doubt that every house is created by someone, doubt that we were created????

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3. ### PlatoRegistered Senior Member

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366
This idea is about as old as the first stone tool that was made by man. It is indeed a very good philosophical argument but wrong never the less. The notion is very much linked to how we percieve matter. Matter as being inanimate, as being 'dead'.
By doing this, inadvertedly a label is attached to matter which in effect makes no sense. Matter isn't dead or alive, it is there and it interacts through the different fundamental forces like gravity, electromagnetism and the nuclear forces.
Now I have to give some sort of definition of life because otherwise we are not talking about the same thing. Beware, that I'm not claiming to give a conclusive definition !
Life could be seen as a state of matter, while death is an other state but only in respect to the first, in as one has no meaning without the other.
In relation to your comparison with a house I would say : life is the house while matter are the bricks and death is a demolished house while the bricks are still there.

Now a brick indeed looks very inanimate at first, once it's put on its place, it pretty much just stays at its place. But while it is lying there several forces are at work : first of all gravity makes sure it stays where it is in respect to the earth, electromagnetism holds it's molecules together and makes sure it doesn't just fall to the centre of the planet (because that is where it is pulled towards) by pushing the electrons of the brick away from the electrons of the ground. In the brick unstable isotopes of some of it's atoms are falling apart into other atoms, changing the chemical/mineral properties of the stone. The protons (which are positively charged particles) want to fly away from each other in the nucleus but are hold together by the much stronger nuclear forces. Changing temperatures make the stone change its shape slightly, interaction with air and water molecules on the surface result to chemical reations making the binding forces with the interior much smaller and thus leads to corrosion.
You see matter isn't dull at all ! Indeed, almost as inevitable as the second law of thermodynamics says that overall chaos increases, it appears at the local level order increases, complexifies, diversifies, evolves, lives, thinks, questions...

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

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5. ### RichilinGuest

What made me interessed in it, is all those prophesys about the past, our days and also about the future. It doesnt matter how we came here, whats intresting is WHY we are here, and WHY God does allow suffering and pain if he exists, and care for us.
And IF we´ll be allowed to ruin the earth.
And do you know what? The bible has the answers.

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7. ### PlatoRegistered Senior Member

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366
I would like to refer to my new topic I just posted on absolute truth on this one, see you there.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

8. ### FlashRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
771
there is no way the entire bible could be
true.
end of story

9. ### LoriRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,065
Flash,

You're not getting the humility thing, are you? The fact is that you have no f'ing idea whether or not every single thing in the Bible is true. Admit it.

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God loves you and so do I!

10. ### DaveWRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
243
Lori,

The skeptical argument may always be triumphant, but it will never be respected.

Flash may be entirely wrong. s/he may be entirely right. The only thing that we can ever know for certain is the present. All we can do is live in the moment and do what of the most practical benefit to us at any given time.

[This message has been edited by DaveW (edited June 23, 1999).]

11. ### PlatoRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
366
What I'm saying is, the universe is quite cabable of creating itself, no need for any creator as such.
You see creation is not really nescesary for god to exist, there are enough other things a deity can supervise then creation. If god really is above things as time and space then he can hardly have created them, no can he ? Because in doing that he would become submitted to them. Then you have the old paradox again where the omnipotent one creates the stone he cannot lift and thus destroying his own omnipotence.

By the way Richilin,
if the bible claims that the circomference divided by the diameter of a circel equals 3 is that true ? (we ARE talking about eucledian math here so don't get smart on me)
I have forgotten the exact line where it says that but I will look it up for you when I get around at it.

Aha, I found it : 1 Kings 7,23
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited June 23, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Plato (edited June 23, 1999).]

12. ### LoriRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,065
Plato,

You're talking as if God is a man or something. About controlling time and space and whatnot. God IS time and space and everything else. I don't think that God is a man, and he shouldn't be compared to our standards of reasoning or our physical laws. Let's just face it; we don't understand WHAT God is. Omnipotence? Do you get it? no. Neither do I, and neither does anyone else really. It's just not within our grasp. Jesus was the man. You da man, Jesus! But God is not; God is something much more than that.

PS, Dave. Flash is a she. Not that it really matters, but...

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God loves you and so do I!

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 23, 1999).]

13. ### PlatoRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
366
I'm sorry I gave the impression that god is a man (especially if it turnes out she is a woman

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) but I'm stuck with the same problem as you are: namely our limited human language to talk about something that is supposed to be larger then that.

Look what I'm trying to say is that god as a notion is something that evolves as well during our history. The bible for example is now read in a different way then a 1000 years ago. Why, it's read in a different way by just about anyone who reads it ! This is a reason why it's not a good idea to put ones interpretation of something like the bible forward as the only true one. How much arrogance does it take to claim : 'I have found the key to the bible' ? The bible itself is as much a search as our struggle is with the Big Questions. The fact that the actual texts didn't evolve for two thousand years don't make them any more constant. Besides we don't have the original texts any more so may be some got changed as well, a lot can happen in 2000 years...

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

14. ### FlashRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
771
Lori,

Come on... I have given you a 100 reasons
why the Bible cannot be all true...if you
remember them..then you know I am right...

You can't prove me wrong..and that just
kills you doesn't it *S*

[This message has been edited by Flash (edited June 24, 1999).]

15. ### RichilinGuest

Hi there. I`m back. Excuse me Flash, I havnt heard your 100 explanations for why the bible cant be true... Please tell it to me one after the other, and I´ll reply.
And no, Plato, God is not a humanbeeing, BUT he is a person, with a personality, and he´s a spirit, who has an intellegens that you cant compare with anything or anyone.
The bible tells us many truths long before we know them, for an example: The people thought for a long time that the earth was flat, and put upon the back of four elephants who were standing on a turtle which was swimming around in the big ocean... or something like that. But all the time the bible said that the earth is round, or sperical, and hanged upon nothing.
Face it babes, the bible is perfect, and thats because its written by God.
God is the only person who has a life without beginning. There are more creatures who has got eternal life, for an example Jesus and the angels (and according to the bible we can recive it too, in the future), but they all have a beginning. They are all created, just like us. God is not, alltough our brains can not except that, because we cannot think in a eternal perspectiv...

(I´m sorry if I spell like a blind hen, but I´m swedish, and I´ve lived in spain for a while, so im in to the spanish spelling of the words...)

16. ### PlatoRegistered Senior Member

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366
Richilin,

have you read anything of Terry Pratchets discworld books ? Wonderfull and hilarious stories, anyway I think the turtal with the elephants was an indian view on the world. Never came in our parts.
Could you perhaps show the exact passage where it says in the bible that the earth is a ball resting on nothing ? I'm very interested.
Besides you didn't said anything about 1 Kings 7,23 that is clearly wrong now isn't it ?

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

17. ### LoriRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,065
Flash,

What 100 things? And I'm not TRYING to be obtuse, here, really. Maybe I did not address them, or maybe I just smoked too much pot in college and I can't remember. Ok, shoot, one more time please, and we will address all.

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God loves you and so do I!

18. ### FlashRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
771
do not have time today to list all the reasons..but let's start here...
read Matt 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21... the story of easter..ok...
now... do not leave out a single detail in
all the descriptions. Not one. Write
down the chronological events beginning with
resurrection to the ascension of Jesus.
below are a few conflicts in their stories...
WHAT TIME DID THE WOMEN VISIT THE TOMB?
Matt: at dawn
Mark: as the rising of the sun
Luke: at early dawn
John: when it was yet dark

WHO WERE THE WOMEN??????
Matt: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
Mark: Mary Madalene, the mother of James,
and Salome
Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother
of James, and other women
John: Mary Magdalene

WHAT WAS THEIR PURPOSE?
Matt: to see the tomb
Mark: had already seen the tomb & brought spices
Luke: already seen the tomb & brought spices
John: the body had already been spiced BEFORE
they arrived

WAS THE TOMB OPENED WHEN THEY ARRIVED?
Matt: NO
Mark: yes
Luke: yes
John: yes

WHO WAS AT THE TOMB WHEN THEY ARRIVED?
Matt: one angel
Mark: one young man
Luke: two men
John: two angels

WHERE WERE THE MESSENGERS SITTING?
Matt: Angel sitting on the stone
Mark: young man sitting inside on the right
Luke: two men standing inside
John: two angel sitting on each side of the
bed

WHAT DID THE MESSENGERS SAY??
Matt 28: 5-7
Mark 16: 6-7
Luke 24:5-7
John 20:13

DID THE WOMEN TELL WHAT HAPPENED?
Matt: yes
Mark No "neither said they anything to
any man" (16:8)
Luke yes "and they returned from the tomb
and told all these things to the eleven,
and to all the rest" (24:9,22-24)
John yes

WHEN MARY RETURNED FROM THE TOMB, DID SHE KNOW JESUS HAD BEEN RESURRECTED???
Matt yes
Mark yes
Luke yes
John NO

WHEN DID MARY FIRST SEE JESUS?
Matt before she returned to the disciples
Mark " "
John after she returned to the disciples

COULD JESUS BE TOUCHED AFTER THE RESURRECTION?
Matt yes
John no (20:17) yes (20:27)

AFTER THE WOMEN..WHO DID JESUS FIRST APPEAR
NEXT??
Matt: 11 disciples
Mark: 2 disciples in the country then to
the 11
Luke: 2 disciples in Emmaus, later to 11
John 10 disciples...
in the book of Paul it states
first to Cephas.. then to the 12..
12????? wasn't Judas dead??? LOL

WHERE DID JESUS FIRST APPEAR TO THE DISCIPLES??
Matt On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles
away)
Mark to 2 in the country, to the 11 "as they
sat at meat"
Luke In Emmaus (about 7 miles away)at
evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem
John in a room at evening

DID THE DISCIPLES BELIEVE THE TWO MEN?
Mark NO
Luke yes (the group speaking ..not the 2)

DID JESUS STAY ON EARTH AWHILE?
Matt no(16:19) compare 16:14 with John
20:19 so this shows all was done on
sunday
Luke no..all happened on sunday
John yes, at least 8 days
Acts 1:3 said yes, at least 40 days!!

Look these dudes can't get their story straight.. and the Bible is perfect???
is this what you call perfection???
and isn't this suppose to be one of the most
important stories of the bible??
I smell a fish!!!!

19. ### LoriRegistered Senior Member

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1,065
Wow, I'm like totally impressed with your Biblical knowledge, you former Sunday School teacher, you! lol!

I'm not challenging a thing that you've said here; not even going to look it up, cause I'm sure that you have the details straight. What I will ask, though, is why are these details so important to you? I mean, why don't we just sum it all up like this....Jesus was dead, and then he rose from the dead. Isn't that enough? I mean, especially considering all that He did while He was alive. It's like taking out a tape measure and trying to get the exact dimensions of some miracle...who really cares? What's important is that it happened! It's like, what if a bunch of people were at an air show, and one of the planes exploded in mid-air and came crashing down into the crowd. You take 5 different survivors, and have them recap the details of the event. Do you think that you would get the exact same story out of each of them? No, you would probably get 5 different stories from 5 different viewpoints, and it may even sound like 5 different plane crash events. BUT, they are all talking of A PLANE CRASHING. There's no doubt in anyone's story that they witnessed a plane crash. Do you see what I mean?

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God loves you and so do I!

20. ### FlashRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
771
Lori,
I do see what you are saying. However,
have not you and a few others here claim
that the bible is correct? That god would
make sure his word is protected? If that
is so... why all the contradictions in
the bible??? Why would it not be totally
clear?????? Their stories do not match up..
I mean come on... how do you confuse
60-100 miles vs. 7???? If this can happen..
just showing you what is suppose to be the
foundation of a personal relationship with
god via Jesus... then how do you know the
events are even true? I mean this is
story is suppose to save people and rock
their world..yet, they can't even get it
straight? Why wouldn't god make it so...after all..isn't the bible suppose to
be the inspired word of god?

21. ### generalhurrssRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
53
SATAN guides the blind and then the blind guide the blind and so forth and so forth.
Babylon will fall and then you're all f**ked.

22. ### BevRegistered Member

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11
generalhurrss you crack me up!!!

The books you are referring to were written by "men" at different times and different places. I believe that these men were inspired by the holy spirit, but I don't think the purpose of the gospels were to give an exact account of certain events. They had other purposes.

For instance, the book of Matthew was unnamed, but the early church and scholars believe that it was written by Matthew. An ongoing debate by scholars is the time when it was written - possibly sometime before 70 A.D., and that Matthew used Mark as a source. The purpose for the book of Matthew was to show detailed lineage of Christ and that the Old Testament prophesies had been fullfilled by Christ.

Mark who was also known as John (Hebrew name), was not one of the original twelve disciples. Scholars say that it was written possibly around 65 & 68 A.D. The pupose of the book was to show Jesus's ministry and his activities, and the "Good news of Jesus".

Luke was written between 59 & 63 A.D. and is considered an historical work with a theological message. It's purpose was to show that Christ was the one that all people could find salvation through.

My point: They weren't written for the purpose that you have deemed them to have been. Men wrote them and accounted what others had seen and heard, as well as themselves. In the book of Matthew there is a lot of "you have heard", "it is written", and "that which was spoken" - not a lot of first hand accounts.

Some Scholars say that Matthew was probably written later than both Mark and Luke. The early church made the decision to put Matthew at the begining of the New Testament because they felt it was kinda a bridge between the Old and the New.

The Bible was written by man, compiled by man, but inspired by God. Get my point?

Bev

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23. ### RichilinGuest

Hey babes
Oki, Plato. Now I´ve got what your talking about, in 1 kings. Pi? Aren´t you?
Oki, so they wright it like its 3 in the bible, when its 3,14 ? Thats your point?
Big deal!!
Oki, read Job 26:7 where it says that the earth is hung upon nothing.
Gotta go now. I can hear the thunder.
Kisses!