Infinite Potential

[Write4U]

The enchanted chain

This title is a metaphor to refer to the relationship between becoming, duration and time. The first link, becoming, are changes in reality. This is a property of the universe. The second link is the duration, which are the intervals between two sequential moments. The third link is time or measure of duration. Duration is measured based on periodic phenomena. If the second link were missing, it would be eternity and time would not exist.

And prior to the "becoming" is the Implicate order?

pri·or1, adjective

1. existing or coming before in time, order, or importance.

 

[Write4U]

I wonder if the Implicate Order might be an alternative perspective of "Neoplatonism".

The Demiurge of Neoplatonism is the Nous (mind of God), and is one of the three ordering principles:

• Arche (Gr. 'beginning') – the source of all things,
• Logos (Gr. 'reason/cause') – the underlying order that is hidden beneath appearances,
• Harmonia (Gr. 'harmony') – numerical ratios in mathematics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

Note the inclusion of relational mathematics in the triune of the universe.

 

[Write4U]

When you enjoy eating your morning breakfast cereal, are you applying the quantum? Could it be that quantum doesn't apply to your breakfast cereal?

It doesn't only apply to your morning breakfast but to your experience of reality itself.
Without quantum (a fundamental unit of value), there can be no physical reality to begin with.

In any case, I don't know if I posted this before, but it bears reading twice.
It has a direct relationship to Bohm's Implicate Order.

The Two Sides of Reality
by Lee Bladon

Implicate & Explicate Orders
World-renowned physicist, David Bohm named these two orders of reality the implicate order and the explicate order:

• The Explicate Order is what we commonly refer to as reality, but this is actually only the external surface of reality. It is the familiar manifest world of space, time and matter.
• The Implicate Order is the deeper, more fundamental reality that underlies the familiar material surface. It is the unmanifest potentiality from which the manifest universe originates and emerges into actuality. It is higher-dimensionally “enfolded” (informationally, energetically and spatially) into every point of the manifest universe.

more.....
https://evolvingsouls.com/blog/two-sides-of-reality/

 

[exchemist]

It doesn't only apply to your morning breakfast but to your experience of reality itself.
Without quantum (a fundamental unit of value), there can be no physical reality to begin with.

In any case, I don't know if I posted this before, but it bears reading twice.
It has a direct relationship to Bohm's Implicate Order.

The Two Sides of Reality
by Lee Bladon

more.....
https://evolvingsouls.com/blog/two-sides-of-reality/

“Quantum” is not a kind of stuff, that you spread on your toast like marmalade. A quantum means something. So does “quantum” as a qualifying adjective, as in “quantum chemistry”.

“without quantum” is however meaningless gibberish.

 

[Write4U]

“Quantum” is not a kind of stuff, that you spread on your toast like marmalade. A quantum means something. So does “quantum” as a qualifying adjective, as in “quantum chemistry”.

So far I see no conflict.

“without quantum” is however meaningless gibberish.

Care to explain that "meaningless comment" about two words quoted out of context?

Rethinking reality

Scientists are like prospectors, excavating the natural world seeking gems of knowledge about physical reality. And in the century just past, scientists have dug deep enough to discover that reality’s foundations do not mirror the world of everyday appearances. At its roots, reality is described by the mysterious set of mathematical rules known as quantum mechanics.

Conceived at the turn of the 20th century and then emerging in its full form in the mid-1920s, quantum mechanics is the math that explains matter. It’s the theory for describing the physics of the microworld, where atoms and molecules interact to generate the world of human experience. And it’s at the heart of everything that made the century just past so dramatically unlike the century preceding it. From cell phones to supercomputers, DVDs to pdfs, quantum physics fueled the present-day electronics-based economy, transforming commerce, communication and entertainment.

But quantum theory taught scientists much more than how to make computer chips. It taught that reality isn’t what it seems.

https://www.sciencenews.org/century/quantum-physics-theory-revolution-reality-uncertainty#

And it isn't "gibberish".

 

[Write4U]

Your use of the word "potential" is about as useful as unicorn theory. You seem to use the word "potential" just to mean "anything that might happen in the future". So, a mountain lake has the "potential for generating electricity". It also, I assume, has the "potential for water-skiing" and the "potential for being a fish habitat". The scientific value of such statements is negligible, in most contexts. So "potential" is just a fancy term to mean "anything that might happen at some time in the future"?

Actually that is precisely what the word means.

Potential generally refers to a currently unrealized ability. The term is used in a wide variety of fields, from physics to the social sciences to indicate things that are in a state where they are able to change in ways ranging from the simple release of energy by objects to the realization of abilities in people. Wikipedia

As to the mountainlake:
Water potential
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Water potential is the potential energy of water per unit volume relative to pure water in reference conditions. Water potential quantifies the tendency of water to move from one area to another due to osmosis, gravity, mechanical pressure and matrix effects such as capillary action (which is caused by surface tension). The concept of water potential has proved useful in understanding and computing water movement within plants, animals, and soil. Water potential is typically expressed in potential energy per unit volume and very often is represented by the Greek letter ψ.

Is "implicate order" just a fancy term to mean "whatever 'potential' is physically possible"?

No it means that spacetime geometry has an underlying logical order that guides the mathematical functions of "cause and effect"

This isn't science.

Then you don't know what science is. Bohm was 10x the scientist you are. If you don't understand Bohm, it is you who is lacking in scientific proficiency.
You may even enjoy reading "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".

Wholeness and the Implicate Order is a book by theoretical physicist David Bohm. It was originally published in 1980 by Routledge, Great Britain.
The book is considered a basic reference for Bohm's concepts of undivided wholeness and of implicate and explicate orders, as well as of Bohm's rheomode - an experimental language based on verbs. The book is cited, for example, by philosopher Steven M. Rosen in his book The Self-evolving Cosmos,[1] by mathematician and theologian Kevin J. Sharpe in his book David Bohm's World,[2][3] by theologian Joseph P. Farrell in Babylon's Banksters,[4] and by theologian John C. Polkinghorne in his book One World.[5]

Chapters[edit]

1. Fragmentation and wholeness
2. The rheomode – an experiment with language and thought
3. Reality and knowledge considered as process
4. Hidden variables in the quantum theory
5. Quantum theory as an indication of a new order in physics, Part A: The development of new orders as shown through the history of physics
6. Quantum theory as an indication of a new order in physics, Part B: Implicate and explicate order in physical law
7. The enfolding-unfolding universe and consciousness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholeness_and_the_Implicate_Order

 

[exchemist]

So far I see no conflict.
Care to explain that "meaningless comment" about two words quoted out of context?

Rethinking reality

https://www.sciencenews.org/century/quantum-physics-theory-revolution-reality-uncertainty#

And it isn't "gibberish".

"Without quantum" is gibberish.

"Without a quantum" could make sense, in the right context. So could "without quantum physics" or "without quantum chemistry". But "without quantum (a fundamental unit of value)" is just meaningless.

 

[Write4U]

"Without quantum" is gibberish.

"Without a quantum" could make sense, in the right context. So could "without quantum physics" or "without quantum chemistry". But "without quantum (a fundamental unit of value)" is just meaningless.

Correct, without values there is no mathematics. But the term "quantum" is well defined as;

quan·tum
noun

1. 1.
   PHYSICS
   a discrete quantity of energy proportional in magnitude to the frequency of the radiation it represents.

Quantum
In physics, a quantum (plural quanta) is the minimum amount of any physical entity (physical property) involved in an interaction. The fundamental notion that a physical property can be "quantized" is referred to as "the hypothesis of quantization".[1] This means that the magnitude of the physical property can take on only discrete values consisting of integer multiples of one quantum.

For example, a photon is a single quantum of light of a specific frequency (or of any other form of electromagnetic radiation). Similarly, the energy of an electron bound within an atom is quantized and can exist only in certain discrete values. (Atoms and matter in general are stable because electrons can exist only at discrete energy levels within an atom.)

Quantization is one of the foundations of the much broader physics of quantum mechanics. Quantization of energy and its influence on how energy and matter interact (quantum electrodynamics) is part of the fundamental framework for understanding and describing nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

Notice the terms "value" as an abstraction of a mathematical property. A quantum is a mathematical object. It has value and interacts mathematically with other quantum values.

 

[James R]

Actually that is precisely what the word means.

Sure. In everyday speech that's what it means. The problem is: you're confusing that meaning with the technical scientific meaning used in physics. Then you're pretending that the everyday meaning is the same as the physics meaning, or that the two meanings are interchangeable.

As to the mountainlake:
Water potential

As usual, since you're unable to distinguish one scientific concept from the next, you have introduced a new irrelevancy. Note that this "water potential" you've cut-and-pasted is not even the same thing as the "potential energy" you talked about earlier in a similar context. And it's very far from being your usual meaning of "anything that might happen at some time in the future".

Then you don't know what science is.

Gee, thanks for letting us all know that I don't know what science is, Write4U.

Coming from such a prestigious scientific expert as yourself, that criticism really is like a punch in the guts!

You should try to be nicer to those who can't rise to your lofty heights of science achievement. Have some sympathy for the little guy!

Bohm was 10x the scientist you are.

How could you possibly know? You don't understand Bohm, and you have no clue about any scientific achievements I might have under my belt. I could be Stephen Hawking, for all you know. (Nice job of faking my own death, if so...)

If you don't understand Bohm, it is you who is lacking in scientific proficiency.

And if you don't understand Bohm, what follows? Will you admit that you lack scientific proficiency, if it turns out that you don't understand Bohm? I'm thinking not.

Hypocrite, much?

You may even enjoy reading "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".

No thanks. I read some Bohm 20-30 years ago. That was enough.

 

[James R]

Notice the terms "value" as an abstraction of a mathematical property. A quantum is a mathematical object. It has value and interacts mathematically with other quantum values.

You're overcomplicating things.

In what you quoted, the word "value" just means "number", essentially. Numbers aren't an "abstraction of a mathematical property". Numbers are mathematical properties.

The word "quantum" just means a fixed amount of something. In physics, when we say something is "quantised", it most often means that the thing comes only in certain multiples (often, but not always, integer multiples) of a certain basic quantity or unit of measure.

The words "interacts mathematically" are hopelessly vague. What is a "mathematical interaction"? When I add 2 and 2 and get 4, is that the number 2 "interacting mathematically" with itself to produce a "new" number? What caused that "interaction"? In this case, it looks like it was me.

You speak as if "mathematical objects" can somehow "interact with" each other, without human intervention. Can you give any examples of such a thing?

 

[Write4U]

You're overcomplicating things.

In what way?

In what you quoted, the word "value" just means "number", essentially. Numbers aren't an "abstraction of a mathematical property". Numbers are mathematical properties.

No, numbers describe mathematical properties.

The word "quantum" just means a fixed amount of something.

In physics, when we say something is "quantised", it most often means that the thing comes only in certain multiples (often, but not always, integer multiples) of a certain basic quantity or unit of measure.

A mathematical object?

The words "interacts mathematically" are hopelessly vague. What is a "mathematical interaction"? When I add 2 and 2 and get 4, is that the number 2 "interacting mathematically" with itself to produce a "new" number? What caused that "interaction"? In this case, it looks like it was me.

What is a function?

A function is defined as a relation between a set of inputs having one output each. In simple words, a function is a relationship between inputs where each input is related to exactly one output. Every function has a domain and codomain or range. A function is generally denoted by f(x) where x is the input. The general representation of a function is y = f(x).

What is a Function in Maths?

A function in maths is a special relationship among the inputs (i.e. the domain) and their outputs (known as the codomain) where each input has exactly one output, and the output can be traced back to its input.

You speak as if "mathematical objects" can somehow "interact with" each other, without human intervention. Can you give any examples of such a thing?

Have a look at chemistry or ask exchemist.
H2O

3d chemical formula of water h2o water molecule on a blue clean background.

I don't think that H and O atoms in sufficient numbers need human intervention to turn into water, or vapor, or ice, or snowflakes.

 

[exchemist]

In what way?
No, numbers describe mathematical properties.
A mathematical object?

What is a function?

What is a Function in Maths?


Have a look at chemistry or ask exchemist.
H2O

3d chemical formula of water h2o water molecule on a blue clean background.

I don't think that H and O atoms in sufficient numbers need human intervention to turn into water, or vapor, or ice, or snowflakes.

View attachment 5504

What meandering ballocks. It seems to me that only a physicist could be so narrow-minded and arrogant as to think a molecule “is” a mathematical object. Everything about chemistry tells you that mathematical modelling of chemical processes is a limited and only approximate exercise. It is only in the highly artificial and simplified world of physics that maths can provide apparently complete solutions.

 

[Write4U]

It is only in the highly artificial and simplified world of physics that maths can provide apparently complete solutions.

The Universe presents a dynamical environment that is in constant change, it is perhaps a bit too much asking for absolute precision when natural obstacles mathematically interfere with the growth pattern no matter how hard the growth function tries to follow the evolved mathematical growth pattern. It's environment will not allow undisturbed growth.

But here is where the guiding mathematics allow for variation. Not every tree looks alike, but they all followed the same growth sequence. That is why we can tell they are trees. They look sufficiently similar to spot the mathematical growth patterns in all trees, and which Fibonacci codified and symbolized into the familiar exponential pattern.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/7-beautiful-examples-fibonacci-sequence-nature

p.s. Is there any variation in water molecules or do they form the same triangular pattern exactly the same?

A covalent bond is a chemical bond that involves the sharing of electrons to form electron pairs between atoms. These electron pairs are known as shared pairs or bonding pairs. The stable balance of attractive and repulsive forces between atoms, when they share electrons, is known as covalent bonding.[1]

For many molecules, the sharing of electrons allows each atom to attain the equivalent of a full valence shell, corresponding to a stable electronic configuration. In organic chemistry, covalent bonding is much more common than ionic bonding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covalent_bond

 

[James R]

Write4U:

In what way?

In the way I carefully explained to you in my post. Rather than knee-jerking a reply line by line, try reading the entire post first. Then actually think about it.

No, numbers describe mathematical properties.

It's not worth diving into that rabbit hole, so I'm not going to.

A mathematical object?

A number. For example, the spin of a particle is a number. The energy of a particle is a number. These things are often quantised, which means only certain numbers are physically allowed.

What is a function?

Relevance: zero.

H2O

Water molecules are molecules, not numbers or functions.

I don't think that H and O atoms in sufficient numbers need human intervention to turn into water, or vapor, or ice, or snowflakes.

Relevance: zero.

The Universe presents a dynamical environment that is in constant change, it is perhaps a bit too much asking for absolute precision when natural obstacles mathematically interfere with the growth pattern no matter how hard the growth function tries to follow the evolved mathematical growth pattern. It's environment will not allow undisturbed growth.

Now you're being inconsistent.

If it is your claim that the universe is mathematics, then all "environments" that are part of the universe are also mathematics. You can't complain about some "natural obstacles" interfering with the beautiful mathematics, because according to you there is only beautiful mathematics to be had - nothing else.

You'll have to invent some other rationale for why the universe is not mathematically perfect.

Not every tree looks alike, but they all followed the same growth sequence. That is why we can tell they are trees.

It is not true that all trees follow the same growth sequence.

p.s. Is there any variation in water molecules or do they form the same triangular pattern exactly the same?

The form of a water molecule is determined by its physical properties, not by mathematics.

 

[Write4U]

James R said ↑
You're overcomplicating things.

W4U said: In what way?

In what you quoted, the word "value" just means "number", essentially. Numbers aren't an "abstraction of a mathematical property". Numbers are mathematical properties.

A number. For example, the spin of a particle is a number. The energy of a particle is a number. These things are often quantised, which means only certain numbers are physically allowed.

Wow, do you mean a mathematical restriction ?
OK, allow me to make some substitutions.
For example; "the spin of a particle has a relational value to the spin of another particle, and the energy of a particle has a relational value to the energy of another particle". Do you think that is overcomplicating things?

W4U said; No, numbers describe mathematical properties.

It's not worth diving into that rabbit hole, so I'm not going to.

A mathematical object?

But that lies at the heart of the matter. You claim that mathematics is invented rather than discovered by humans.
I say some theoretical mathematics is human invented because the rules don't change for educated theory applied to several seemingly unrelated functions. Sometimes a natural expression of an until-then-unknown phenomenon actually confirms the mathematics of the human-invented theory.

Even if Fibonacci invented the FS, as an example of an exponential function. He likes flowers and picks a few daisies to examine in the lab.
To his surprise, he finds that all his daisies followed his sequenced and codified order. And then the quest began.

And this is the result of our search for the Fibonacci Sequence occurring in nature. And behold, it's everywhere.
The Fibonacci Sequence is an evolved mathematical function that natural selection often favored the sequence for many structural mathematical reasons.
This is just a sampling;

14 INTERESTING EXAMPLES OF THE GOLDEN RATIO IN NATURE

The famous Fibonacci sequence has captivated mathematicians, artists, designers, and scientists for centuries. Also known as the Golden Ratio, its ubiquity and astounding functionality in nature suggests its importance as a fundamental characteristic of the Universe.

We've talked about the Fibonacci series and the Golden ratio before, but it's worth a quick review. The Fibonacci sequence starts like this: 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55 and so on forever. Each number is the sum of the two numbers that precede it. It's a simple pattern, but it appears to be a kind of built-in numbering system to the cosmos.

Here are 14 astounding examples of phi in nature.
more .... https://www.mathnasium.com/blog/14-interesting-examples-of-the-golden-ratio-in-nature

 

[James R]

Write4U:

Wow, do you mean a mathematical restriction ?

Yes. The spin of a particle, as I said, is a number that we use in a theory to model physical particles. Mathematical theories can have mathematical restrictions. There's no problem with that.

OK, allow me to make some substitutions.
For example; "the spin of a particle has a relational value to the spin of another particle, and the energy of a particle has a relational value to the energy of another particle". Do you think that is overcomplicating things?

You just created more word salad. "Relational value" doesn't mean anything. Also, I don't know what you're talking about when you claim that the spin of one particle relates to the spin of another particle. Same thing with energy. I think you're just making stuff up.

But that lies at the heart of the matter. You claim that mathematics is invented rather than discovered by humans.

Yes. For now.

I say some theoretical mathematics is human invented because the rules don't change for educated theory applied to several seemingly unrelated functions. Sometimes a natural expression of an until-then-unknown phenomenon actually confirms the mathematics of the human-invented theory.

"Natural expressions" don't include mathematical expressions.

Even if Fibonacci invented the FS, as an example of an exponential function.

The FS is not an exponential function.

He likes flowers and picks a few daisies to examine in the lab.
To his surprise, he finds that all his daisies followed his sequenced and codified order. And then the quest began.

You're telling me that his sequence was useful for modelling certain aspects of real-world daisies.

And this is the result of our search for the Fibonacci Sequence occurring in nature. And behold, it's everywhere.

You still haven't established any causal link between the maths and the natural world. I don't think you can. I don't think Tegmark can, either.

The Fibonacci Sequence is an evolved mathematical function that natural selection often favored the sequence for many structural mathematical reasons.

Mathematical functions cannot evolve.

Natural selection works on physical things, not mathematical functions.

And no, the FS was not favoured by natural selection for mathematical reasons. It was favoured for the usual reason: higher "fitness" to the physical environment.

The famous Fibonacci sequence has captivated mathematicians, artists, designers, and scientists for centuries. Also known as the Golden Ratio, its ubiquity and astounding functionality in nature suggests its importance as a fundamental characteristic of the Universe.

The Fibonacci sequence is not the Golden Ratio, nor is it known as such. This cut-and-paste can be safely ignored.

 

[Write4U]

"Natural expressions" don't include mathematical expressions.

No patterns? You're out on a limb here.

The FS is not an exponential function.

It is a form of exponential function.

What is an exponential function?

An exponential function represents the relationship between an input and output, where we use repeated multiplication on an initial value to get the output for any given input. Exponential functions can grow or decay very quickly.

Intro to exponential functions | Algebra (video) - Khan Academy

You're telling me that his sequence was useful for modelling certain aspects of real-world daisies.

No, it was useful in real-world survival strategies and mathematical coding, given the prevailing Universal Constants, like gravity, quantum


The Golden Ratio seems to play a major role in the deterministic mathematical functions that at least helped shape the universe in regard to the observable "common denominators" of all physical expressions emerging (unfolding) in our reality, from daisies to sunflowers, from snails to galaxies.

The golden ratio was called the extreme and mean ratio by Euclid,[2] and the divine proportion by Luca Pacioli,[3] and also goes by several other names.

more ....... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

 

[James R]

No patterns? You're out on a limb here.

Straw man.

It is a form of exponential function.

No, it isn't.

Look, it's a bit annoying when you presume to correct me while obviously having no clue about what you're talking about. Why don't you take the opportunity to learn something, instead?

For instance, if you don't know what an exponential function is - and clearly you don't - why not ask somebody who does know? Like me, for instance? Why pretend you know?

What is an exponential function?

Check against your own definition!

Hint: it's called the Fibonacci sequence, not the Fibonacci function or the Fibonacci exponential.

No, it was useful in real-world survival strategies and mathematical coding, given the prevailing Universal Constants, like gravity, quantum

Word salad.

The Golden Ratio seems to play a major role in the deterministic mathematical functions that at least helped shape the universe in regard to the observable "common denominators" of all physical expressions emerging (unfolding) in our reality, from daisies to sunflowers, from snails to galaxies.

You continue to fail to address the big question of how any mathematical function could possibly "help to shape" anything in the physical world. Mathematical functions are concepts.

Apart from that, this is just one more claim you're just making up as you go along. Who do you think you're fooling?

 

[Write4U]

For instance, if you don't know what an exponential function is - and clearly you don't - why not ask somebody who does know? Like me, for instance? Why pretend you know?

Because I like the way this fellow looks at the definition of an "exponential function".

Intro to exponential functions | Algebra (video) - Khan Academy

Why not take a peek?

Mathematical functions are concepts.

No, they are the black box where input is processed and an output pattern is formed. The black box is the site of the event itself.
It is that simple.

Function (mathematics)
Association of one output to each input

In mathematics, a function from a set X to a set Y assigns to each element of X exactly one element of Y. The set X is called the domain of the function and the set Y is called the codomain of the function. Wikipedia

And the above is obviously not how it happens physically in the real world, but rather how physics are inherently mathematical in essence and that is why the imaginary "black box" yields predictable results once we know the mathematics of the Input and available causal energy. We use mathematical physics to calculate the Output, and we know how to do it right in many ways, even with variable values. When you ask the Universe a mathematical question and you use correct mathematics, the Universe will reward you with an answer.
What more can we demand from our gross experience of natural events occurring all around us.

 

[DaveC426913]

No, they are the black box where input is processed and an output pattern is formed. The black box is the site of the event itself.
It is that simple.
...
And the above is obviously not how it happens physically in the real world...

Oh look, a direct self-contradiction.

(Cue twelve screens of randomly triggered articles and definitions...)