Science will prove/discover God

Discussion in 'Religion' started by TheFrogger, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I see this from a different perspective. Mathematical quasi-intelligence is already present in pure chemicals and the very specific mathematical/physical ways they MUST interact. All information sharing constitutes an act of intelligence, even when the informational (mathematical) languages differ and both sender and recipient are unaware of the information sharing.
    However, an entire class of chemicals are relatively restricted in movement. Their patterns are just too dense for flexible movements, those are the "solids", as separate from "fluid".

    OTOH, the class of bio-chemicals are extremely flexible in communicating with each other and can form a great variety of patterns and movements, dynamical organic patterns (cells) with ability for processing energy for survivability, growth, and duplicating in numbers by mitosis.
    I agree, but there is a smooth curve from inanimate chemical patterns acting in a quasi intelligent manner, to animate bio-chemical patterns acting in a progressively consciously intelligent manner. Ability to learn and apply learned knowledge for survival.
    Life is not a mysterious thing, it is remarkable but not mysterious. There is no "elan vital' that creates a specific distinction, different from complexity as a product of extended mutative evolutionary processes.
    The only requirement is an inherent Dynamical aspect to the universal geometry.
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/élan vital

    Does a crystal posses an elan vital?
    https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/crystal-growth

    Thus just a simple imbalance can be sufficient "elan vital" for growth of a purely non-biological crystalline object. It merely needs a dynamical environment with stuff in it. The rest is a probabilistic but deterministic evolution of physical patterns, to ever greater density until "quorum sensing" of sentient organisms can physically relate and interact with patterns at the "level of sensory observation".

    We settle on reality by agreement and ability to predict deterministic functions. It's a collective "best guess" , the very same principle as the bacterial "quorum sensing"
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  3. river

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    Agreed

    Write4U

    Sensory of our environment is important to evolution . Of both Animals and plant life .
     
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  5. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    Religion gives fewer and fewer answer to all questions.
     
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  7. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    Well, religious people aren't always asking the same questions non-religious people ask, so the answers might be satisfying to them.

    An example would be evolution. Many religious people believe in Creationism, hence they might not even know how to discuss evolution, separate and away from their religious mindset.
     
  8. river

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    And vis versa .
     
  9. wegs With brave wings, she flies . . . Valued Senior Member

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    Yep. : )
     
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  10. river

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    Life is part of this Universe . Always has .
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    So it seems, but what is life?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_(disambiguation)

    However, Tegmark reduces this even further, by defining life as a"dynamic pattern".

    What is the difference in a live beetle and a dead beetle? Physically there is none. The difference is only in the arrangement of patterns. One pattern is dynamical, the other is not.



    The difference between densities of molecules results in a quorum sensing which produces a gaseous state, a liquid state, a solid state. Water H2O (in its 3 states) is a perfect example of quorum sensing based on temperature and density.

    Which leads me to the conclusion that physical (chemical) information sharing between molecules itself is a proto-intelligent function.
    And mathematics are a quasi-intelligent form of assessing values and functions, which emerges as sentience in living biological patterns (organisms), but remains in latent form in non-biological patterns (structures).
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Religion gives poorer and poorer explanation answers the more Science learns and puts the information out there

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  13. river

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    To your second last statement , yes .

    Which means that Life is in all physical things .

    Sentience , life form able to sense environmental multiple energy forms . Three dimensionally . Constantly .
     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But if there is life in all physical things, then all physical things must also die.
    We can recognize the difference in the patterns. Dynamic patterns are a form of life, static patterns are a form of death or stasis.
     
  15. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Physical inorganic stuff does not die

    Only organic stuff dies, becomes unable to self replicate

    Physical inorganic stuff did not have a self replicating ability to start with

    Remember every single atom in your body of all the chemicals your body is comprised of ARE NOT ALIVE

    Combine in the form of your body however they comprise a PROCESS

    It is the PROCESS we call life, not the ingredients

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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It ages and eventually dies as the pattern it used to be. Also known as decaying to a lower energy state.
    I understand, but everything is always undergoing a process of change.
    Can we call a process of change, a form of living?
    If a certain (cell) pattern grows and then divides it's called mitosis and is a typical process of living organisms.

    This process can also be observed in the state of the ozone layer. A clorine molecule interacts with an ozone molecule and destroys the ozone molecule, but creates a new chlorine molecule in the process. It's not mitosis, but more like having a baby.
    https://www.answers.com/Q/How_does_chlorine_atom_destroy_the_ozone_layer
    Yet, they interact dynamically and experience quorum sensing. They are just not conscious of the process, but then not all very basic living organismsm are conscious or have neural networks or brains at all, yet they are alive, they can learn, remember, and physically evolve into more complex living organisms. (Don't forget the bacteria.)

    Although Penrose might argue that even at quantum, the event is crossing a threshold which resolves in a "bing" (a reactive moment of unconscious awareness).

    What we call "being sick" in living organisms is often referred to as "symmetry breaking" or "imbalance" for the same condition in physics.

    I know it is stretching the meaning of life and death, but we do use terms like half-life for physical inorganic stuff.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    No

    Well I guess if you wish to redefine words, in a colloquial manner, after all language is a living thing, writing to all the dictionary publishers of dictionaries. They might be kind enough to agree OR they might suggest they will redefine along your suggestion if the word changes organically (neat eh?)

    40 years nursing never heard "symmetry breaking"

    Come here nurse we have a "symmetry breaking" patient ?????

    The old days of horse and carriage (sighs for the good ol'days) we did have doctors (sighs) who spoke of humours (sighs) being in balance (well / in a good mood) or unbalanced, sick but never "symmetry breaking"

    Stretching???? You are cutting it into segments and placing them a metre apart

    And it should be half-age

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  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But then I was speaking in context of natural physics.

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    A ball is initially located at the top of the central hill (C). This position is an unstable equilibrium: a very small perturbation will cause it to fall to one of the two stable wells left (L) or (R). Even if the hill is symmetric and there is no reason for the ball to fall on either side, the observed final state is not symmetric.[/quote]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry_breaking
    Nor did we have the expression "interfacing" either.
    We are talking on a universal scale.....

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    But it isn't called that......

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    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Can't help that

    It should be

    Tomatoes are called vegetables but are fruits
    Peanuts are not nuts but are peas

    Nuts are a food stuff but also non living parts of many non living items holding bits together with a companion bolt

    Truce because this is a centermetre off topic?

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  20. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Infinity is s sleeping 8

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  21. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Infinity Sleeps would be a good movie title.
     
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Agree

    Start writing the script

    It was a dark and windy night

    Suddenly from out of the shadows stepped INFINITY

    She had no idea how long she had been there

    (to be continued by the next poster)

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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Just at the edge of the forest, in the field, a group of thieves sat around the camp-fire.
    "Who knows a story" asked one.
    "I" said another, and he began:
    "It was a dark and windy night

    Suddenly from out of the shadows stepped INFINITY

    She had no idea how long she had been there"

    (to be continued by the next poster)

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