THE BIBLICAL EXODUS ACCOUNT

Discussion in 'Religion' started by SetiAlpha6, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    Evidence is usually real, but it's not always interpreted correctly. I suspect, as many here would, that there is considerable bias in the interpretation on the part of the director.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    The point is that there is no actual evidence. There is only religious belief posing as evidence. For the sake of honesty it's best not to characterize belief as evidence. If you prefer we can settle on the term "competent evidence" which is what readers usually think of as evidence (given that false testimony is sometimes entered as evidence in trials). Competent evidence would be substantiated by corroborating facts as credible, true and correct. To be clear, no such evidence of Exodus exists, just as there is no evidence that Krishna sat in a chariot with Arjuna overlooking the battle at the beginning of the world, or that Marduk slew the dragon mother Tiamat, chopped her to bits, and scattered the pieces across the sky to form the universe. These are all myths. The Exodus myth is the kind of story that creates the imaginary beginnings of a society; and in particular it establishes the Jewish religious concept of a pact with their imagined creator -- the Covenant. It is highly imaginative, but nonetheless myth. Otherwise it would comport with natural law and all of the competent evidence of history. And it doesn't. But then, since the story is obviously not a chronicle, we don't expect it to be true through literal interpretation anyway.

    I think the issue here is one of honesty. It's one thing for a person to privately cling to falsely rendered facts, but the solicitation of public approval of those misrepresentations kind of, well, stinks. I think this is the main reason for giving critical feedback.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,738
    What would be a deal-killer then?
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,738
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,252
    So far as I can tell there's no such thing as a "deal killer" for fundies.
    They only say things like that to make themselves appear as IF they were amenable to rational argument, evidence and "proof".
     
    sideshowbob likes this.
  9. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,152
    The problem here is that the manuscripts (mentioned in Spidergoat's cite from Reddit) are not relevant to the Hebrew story at all. Trying to use them in this way is disingenuous. It's that fundamental dishonesty which makes the whole film another hoax, just like the claims surrounding finding Noah's Ark, or that awful Flintstone Museum. These are all simply blatant lies -- posing as evidence.

    I haven't heard the term 'Bible Christians' before, but no doubt you mean fundamentalists. The other folks are not only not convinced, they will state that this is a hoax, and explain why.
    A lot of money goes a long way in dressing up religion as pseudoscience. I would certainly watch the rebuttal, if anyone happened to think it was worth explaining why the so-called evidence is nothing more than wishful thinking.

    I read the commentary. I thought it was a little weak in discrediting the filmmakers. I also disagree with the final conclusion: that history does not negate the Bible. There are plenty of facts in history which, when they speak of trivialities in place of the large claims made in the myths and fables of the Bible, reveal that the larger events never took place. Josephus is like this in his mention of Jesus. (The narrative which may not be fraudulent.) He reveals nothing about the many claims that grew around this Jesus, devoting his time to minor bickering between famous people instead. This is hugely important, much more damning than writing nothing at all.
     
  10. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,738
    Yes the conclusion doesn't seem to follow from the argument.
    I didn't read it properly.
    He writes:


    To accept the above, you would have to believe that the Bible was at least equally valid as archaeology as a source of history.
    And if the two contradict each other, the Bible has primacy.
    I think the writer would prefer people to read his books, not those of this new upstart.

    By Bible Christian, I mean Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is literally true.
     
  11. CHRIS.Q Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    147
  12. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Of course the director is biased and so are you spidergoat. You are a smart person, certainly you know that is a hollow argument. And I agree with you that evidence is not always interpreted correctly.
    Everyone on Earth is biased.
     
  13. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    So far, it appears that no one else here has seen the film.
    I did, and I thought it did a pretty fair job of presenting an alternate theory compared to mainstream thought. The theory presented may never be accepted by mainstream archeology simply because it would upset so many other current theories. But I will be looking into it more over time. I certainly do not know everything.
    It makes perfect "naturalistic sense" to regard the Exodus account as just a story, or a myth, or a legend, as long as there is no naturalistic evidence for it.
    The thing is… I do personally think there is naturalistic evidence for the Exodus on the Earth right now. And that evidence is why I think the Exodus account in the Bible is real and accurate. It has become as real to me as any rock I could pick up in my own backyard and hold. I have obviously become very biased at this point.
    Time for you to laugh out loud, right about... NOW!
    I will attempt to build a case, over time, primarily from satellite imagery and from photographic evidence on the ground and try to explain why I think this.
    My bias is Christian. Keep that in mind because that will give you a "good" reason to automatically explain away everything I show you.
    And you all can call me crazy now, or you can call me crazy later, or you can call me crazy both now and later if you wish.
    There is a bit of material to go over and it will take some time to put it all together, and I work full time, and I have a family, but I will do the best I can with the time I have available.
    I regard most of this evidence to be simplistic, and obvious, and even self-evident.
    It will not likely be found in any scientific journal, probably ever. And, as far as I know, it is not "peer reviewed" either. That will give you another "good" reason to throw out everything I show you.
    All I can do is my best, that is really all I can do.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
  14. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,513
    The trouble is I'm not sure any of the rest of us really care about this as much as you do. I'm content to wait and read reviews, by people whose opinion I trust, of the book, when it comes out. That's because I do not have the interest to go into all the pros and cons in depth myself, which is what I'd need to do in order to decide whether I buy your arguments or not.

    If the film tries to overturn the conventional wisdom, then no doubt it can be done, but it needs a strong case.

    On a side issue, why do people think the literal truth of Exodus is important in Christianity? I always thought Christianity was concerned with the teachings and example of Christ, in the New Testament. The Old, I always thought, was merely the back story to the New.
     
  15. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    54,036
    That would not be the reason. That's what religious people do, make their conclusions fit preconceived beliefs. Science loves when old theories are upturned, it means we have learned something new. Sure, individual scientists may object, but in general scientific revolutions are welcome.

    It's also possible that pre-Jews were in Egypt and then left. But, then what? It doesn't mean God helped them do it. It doesn't mean that Moses parted the Red Sea. It doesn't mean that Jews are God's special friends.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
  16. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Sure, that is fine. I understand.

    There are a number of reasons. But primarily for me, in the Biblical Exodus account God revealed His plan of salvation for mankind for the first time on this Earth. In that account, the Old Testament predicts the coming of Christ on multiple levels in the New Testament. And the actual location(s) where God did that are very easy to find on Google Earth. You just have to know where to look for them. They are visible from space. I know I sound super crazy to you, no one wants to be fooled. I completely understand. I will try and show you what I am talking about, with a few images from Google Earth, hopefully tomorrow if I have the time. And you can decide for yourself. Until then you can just laugh and think I am nuts.
     
  17. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,513
    No, it's not a question of thinking you are nuts, I just want to understand why the Old Testament is taken so seriously by some Christians. I take your point about the foretelling of the Messiah, whichI suppose played a large part in giving Christ his authority, as far as the apostles were concerned. But for us, today?

    As for the geographical locations mentioned in Exodus, the fact that many of them may be real does not mean that Exodus is historical fact.
     
  18. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    In this thread, I will attempt to make a case for the reality of the Biblical Exodus Account using Google Maps, Google Earth, On-Location Photography, and Explanation.

    I would like to emphasize that I made none of these discoveries myself.

    I will start with the premise, or bias, or belief, that the God of the Bible is real and that the Biblical account of the Exodus is a description of real people, real places, and real events. Of course, I understand that some will dismiss all of this as being impossible from the outset on that basis alone. Perhaps some will not.

    When taken by themselves, each of these sites can certainly be discarded as being meaningless, one after another. But when considered together and with the Biblical account itself, the relationships between them become very clear. They are like abstract puzzle pieces that can only be understood after all of the pieces are assembled and the picture completed.

    Google Maps and Google Earth are both related virtual globe mapping programs that project satellite imagery and aerial photography onto a 3D globe. Decide which one you prefer or use both if you like. They both use the same image data.

    Google Maps locations will be viewable on the internet by using the links that will be provided. Google Maps has the advantage of being instantly available to anyone with an internet connection. One can simply click on the link and you will be taken to the location under consideration. But it might not be quite as 3D friendly as Google Earth.

    Google Earth coordinates will also be provided, when helpful, for anyone who wants to use that program. To use them, highlight and copy the provided coordinate, launch the Google Earth program, paste the coordinates into the Search box in the program and press the “Search” button. It should take you to the correct location.

    Google Earth is a free program but it has to be installed on your device before you can use it. It can really help if you use Google Earth to zoom around these sites in 3D so you can see how separate components relate to each other in 3D space. At times that will be important. And exploring in Google Earth is also just plain fun.

    I am merely presenting the following information for your consideration. The ideas I will present need further study by people that are better qualified than I am before they can be confirmed as fact. Until then, decide for yourself if this material has value.

    I will try to make progress on this endeavor as fast as I can with the available time I have. But it will probably take a little while to get through everything. So your patience will be greatly appreciated.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I will do my best and we will see what happens.

    Anyway, we will see what you think!
     
  19. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    The Old Testament has wisdom in it that I need to learn for the challenges of today. Values that are slowly disappearing in this world. There are definitely hard things to be found there as well! But the Old and the New create a more complete picture than if they are separated. And I think it is true that those who do not learn from the past are often doomed to repeat it.

    Right! The fact that a country called Egypt actually exists, for example, will not indicate anything substantial about the Exodus account. But the existence of maybe 15 or so separate pieces of physical evidence at the same massive site that are related by a piece of ancient text is very interesting to me at least. I will try and show you what I mean and you can decide if any of it makes sense to you.
     
  20. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,057
    You could find a thousand real-world facts that are consistent with the Exodus account - but what is more important is whether or not you can find ONE fact that FALSIFIES the account.
     
  21. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Spidergoat... The more I think about this post the more I actually love it. I mean, I really think it is brilliant! You have a great sense of humor and you apparently care very deeply about justice. We need more people in the world like you. Simply Awesome!!!
     
  22. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Photizo likes this.
  23. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,283

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    PIC1 MOSAIC ALTAR ANIMAL CORRAL AND PILLAR REMAINS​
     
    Photizo likes this.

Share This Page