What is it about woo that upsets you?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wegs, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    Why should the universe describe anything? All it needs do is function in a fundamental way. Tegmark claims it is all mathematical, and human maths seem to confirm the mathematical nature of natural phenomena.

    The new thing this brings to the table is that heretofore every one rejects the notion that the universe itself functions mathematically. To me this sounds like a major qualitative paradigm shift.
    The formal descriptions are human. A slime mold merely needs to use algebraic functions, unaware that it does so. But if you do some reading on the slime mold, you will see that this single celled (compound) organism can act in a very precise mathematical manner depending on its hive mind quorum sensing.
    To me this is a fascinating aspect how brainless organisms still follow mathematical regularities. Where is that information hidden, stored or encoded? In the spacetime fabric itself? Tegmark says yes and it sounds logical to me.
    Yes, and they suggest that mathematical pattern form spontaneous from chaos, albeit in a probabilistic way, which is quite reasonable, being that they emerge and form from chaotic conditions, which are highy sensitive to change.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Plasmas stream from the top and bottom to form large-scale electromagnetic fields.

    https://scitechdaily.com/scientists-explore-how-order-emerges-from-chaos-in-the-cosmos/

    Something mathematical going on here? Are there any natural laws involved or is it just all purely random?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    But is that not how formal proofs of natural laws are applied? You present it in mathematical form and test it physically until the mathematics of the observed phenomena have been identified and codified. Proof of a naturally occurring universal function or phenomenon? Is this not how Einstein proved light bends in agravitational field, but which was observationally confirmed (proved) much later?
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    A pattern is mathematical in essence and it does not need to resemble a codified number . It just needs to become expressed in a particular way.

    Have you seen the beautiful pattern dynamically emerging from a function of 4/3?

    Have you heard the sound emerging from the wave harmonics of 4/3? (A "perfect fourth" in just intonation corresponds to a pitch ratio of 4:3)

    Did you know that acid rock rhythm is based on 4/3 (4 beats/3 beats)

    Did you know that the volume of a sphere is 4/3 of a particular cylinder? (V = 4/3 π r^3)

    4/3 is not just a human symbolic number, it is a relative value which becomes expressed in nature in several specific forms.
    It is the human codified symbolic representation of the essence, the natural potential contained in a particular relative mathematical value.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,602
    There is an underlying order to the universe. That is not the same as there being underlying mathematical functions. The functions merely express that order.
    I have no issue using math to explain the universe.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    Yes, and it's all very mathematical in essence.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,654
    Correct. The universe behaves in ways we have yet to model.
    Yeah, we're pretty sure it will turn out to have causes and effects.
    Saying 'it's math' does not get us any further. It's just as spooky and probabilistic as it was before you put the label on it.

    An unknown is still an unknown, saying 'it's gonna be math' doesn't change that.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    That is the famous chicken or the egg problem, no? I submit that the order emerged from the mathematical functions, not the other way around.
    I have no issue with Tegmark proposing that the universe is mathematical in essence.....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    It's not gonna be math. It is already mathematical, we just haven't found the right way to symbolize it yet....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Michael 345 likes this.
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,654
    You have yet to demonstrate how your idea is more than a semantic issue. It doesn't change anything.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    Except it turns everything around. But true, the self-referential equation remains the same.
     
    wegs likes this.
  14. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,189
    At last. This is probably the most succinct way to summarize Tegmark's hypothesis.
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,654
    How?

    How would we do things differently? I mean, we already observe phenomena and try to model it using math. And, yes, we assume the universe works in an ordered - and ultimately understandable - way (that is the foundational assumption of science). So what would change?

    I wonder, if by spookiness and mysticism, you are targeting more anti-science hobbies like astrology and numerology? I think we can all agree here (except one or two) that astrology, magic and mysticism is to be spurned.
     
  16. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,189
    Speaking of woo:

    https://nypost.com/2019/05/03/nepal-refutes-indias-yeti-claim-says-prints-wear-likely-from-bear/

    I can't for the life of me figure out why so many people are hell bent on keeping this ridiculous Big Foot legend alive. What upsets ME about this particular woo story, is that there is a perfectly sound explanation of where the footprints came from, but noooo. We have to offer woo as an alternative. It could be a Yeti. No, it can't!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Why is woo offered as an alternative in this story???

    There's no reason to bring woo into this story, AT ALL.
     
  17. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,654
    Because bears don't make the news.
     
  18. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,189
    Right. Gives fake news a whole new meaning.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,281
    Or colourful in essence

    Same same, different languages

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Colourfully

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    OK, let me have a stab at the difference. Tegmark changes the concept of a physical universe to a concept of a universe consisting of relative values, information, some of which express themselves as physical patterns, but also as forms of quasi-intelligent consciousness of various kinds.
    https://medium.com/the-physics-arxi...r-like-a-solid-a-liquid-or-a-gas-5e7ed624986d

    Which would explain the ability of non-brained organism to behave in a quasi-intelligent mathematical manner.

    Which also leads us to Hameroff and Penrose.....(wegs, I think you'll like Roger Penrose).



    Note that the quantum wave collapse (Bing) is audible on the recording of microtubule activity!
    And rather than the mainstream assumption that consciousness causes wave collapse (by observation), quantum wave collapse actually causes consciousness, the Bing.

    This is referred to as "Objective Reduction". This my kinda woo......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    http://nautil.us/issue/47/consciousness/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-not-compute
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    Possibly. EM waves are a powerful information sharing medium. As is QM.
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,580
    Objective Reduction is the "reversal of the mainstream equation" (mentionedearlier.
     
  23. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,255
    Evil vs. Woo wins
     

Share This Page